Liverpool FC Forum

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:54 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
RedBlood wrote:Puff?....................i guess you would know stu

hes also THE best left footed crosser of a ball in the prem, we wouldnt need 2 break the bank 4 him & he would get better with better player around him

and yes as a right-sided winger Bentley is better then gerrard becoz unlike gerrard he actually stays on the right wing

Yeah totally, because we've got loads of players that are brilliant at attacking crosses. I can totally see the logic in signing two, at best, good wingers.

Downing is a bag who pulls out of every tackle.

As for saying Bentley's better than Gerrard... pffffttt

Fo dne reason he pulls out of tackles is because he is a winger not a center half.

Does ronaldo tackle much ....

I give you a week to think about that one.

Lets get the nit and grit of things. What are a wingers main skills ?

Lets see pace , yes he has that.
Crossing errr yes he got that.
Able to beat a man or 2 , errr yes that too.
Flair yes not best in league but he got some.
Tricks well this his weak area or mabye his strength i for one don't like over the top wingers with to many tricks.

Lets see nope didn't think so don't see tackle there.

If I was you FO DNE i go and learn football coaching badge then come back and talk about it when you stop talking out of you ar.se.

As for players who attack crosses keane scores from crosses torres is very good in air and gerrard remember CL final plus diving header he scored.

I think it unfair to point out also our lack of players to attack crosses as we haven't had a good winger in errr about 17 years.

Also a point to note a wingers job isn't just to get crosses in they are there to stretch the play open gaps in defences and go over the top behind the back 4.

Also you find in tight top 4 games 2 wingers will pin down the op's full backs which in turn gives more space to your center midfielders in attacking postions and that advantage can win games.

off lad.

"He pulls out of tackles because he's a winger". Thats the most rediculous excuse I've heard in my entire life. I don't expect a winger to be like Gerrard, Mascherano or Alonso in a 50-50, but i'd expect them to challenge for it and at least make some sort of attempt to win the ball. Downing NEVER does, ask the Middlesborough fans.

As for Ronaldo, he doesn't tackle much no, but he doesn't out either and is more than willing to push people about and use his upper body strength, something Downing doesn't do.

Smicer has more aggression in his game... look how frustrated the fans got with him.

You then go on about Wingers main skills? What utter . Footballers are footballers and it completely depends completely on the system as to what skills a "winger"/wide player needs.

Kevin Kilbane's a very average winger who's made a career out of being able to beat full backs arially on diagnal long balls from right backs and hard work and helping stop sides playing.

Gareth Barry's been a box to box left sided midfielder for years giving defensive solidity, ball retention and drive to the left hand side at Villa.

You mention his "pace". Downings not what you'd call a quick player. He's not slow but pace isn't his main attribute what so ever. His best attributes are all technical, his crossing, body shape, passing, shooting, set peices and even his vision. You also bang on about his crossing... Again, I'll say to you, whats the point? We have no players who thrive of this kind of service what so ever. Keane is awful in the air and doesn't attack crosses and Torres, while he can, and probably will try its not and never will be his game. If we had Fowler, I'd see your arguement, but we dont.

I'll say it once more in capitals for you....

WE HAVE NO PLAYERS WHO THRIVE OFF THAT TYPE OF SERVICE. Its not even as if we have a right winger who'd make the most of over hit crosses...

As for saying a winger needs "tricks"... hell... how old are you? Giggs, Robben and McManaman hardly had a trick between them and all could beat players for fun with there eyes closed.

To say we have a team who thrive of crosses is simply . We don't, its wrong to say we do. Gerrard's one goal here and there and Torres one goal here and there doesn't mean we do. The amount of quality balls Pennant whips in theres never anyone to convert them is a joke, no-one bothers there to get into the box and attack the things.

I'm not even arguing with you no more lad, you're chatting complete and utter rubbish. You keep living in your fantasy world were we have a good enough defence, Bentley is better than Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso and the signing of two decent players will win us the league and leave us even more open at the back for teams to expose our weaknesses.

Well done...

Yet agian you have failed the basics in reading.

Read my post agian as i don't think you understand any thing.

You a idiot that don't know his ar.se from his elbow when it comes to football.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:41 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
RedBlood wrote:Puff?....................i guess you would know stu

hes also THE best left footed crosser of a ball in the prem, we wouldnt need 2 break the bank 4 him & he would get better with better player around him

and yes as a right-sided winger Bentley is better then gerrard becoz unlike gerrard he actually stays on the right wing

Yeah totally, because we've got loads of players that are brilliant at attacking crosses. I can totally see the logic in signing two, at best, good wingers.

Downing is a bag who pulls out of every tackle.

As for saying Bentley's better than Gerrard... pffffttt

Fo dne reason he pulls out of tackles is because he is a winger not a center half.

Does ronaldo tackle much ....

I give you a week to think about that one.

Lets get the nit and grit of things. What are a wingers main skills ?

Lets see pace , yes he has that.
Crossing errr yes he got that.
Able to beat a man or 2 , errr yes that too.
Flair yes not best in league but he got some.
Tricks well this his weak area or mabye his strength i for one don't like over the top wingers with to many tricks.

Lets see nope didn't think so don't see tackle there.

If I was you FO DNE i go and learn football coaching badge then come back and talk about it when you stop talking out of you ar.se.

As for players who attack crosses keane scores from crosses torres is very good in air and gerrard remember CL final plus diving header he scored.

I think it unfair to point out also our lack of players to attack crosses as we haven't had a good winger in errr about 17 years.

Also a point to note a wingers job isn't just to get crosses in they are there to stretch the play open gaps in defences and go over the top behind the back 4.

Also you find in tight top 4 games 2 wingers will pin down the op's full backs which in turn gives more space to your center midfielders in attacking postions and that advantage can win games.

off lad.

"He pulls out of tackles because he's a winger". Thats the most rediculous excuse I've heard in my entire life. I don't expect a winger to be like Gerrard, Mascherano or Alonso in a 50-50, but i'd expect them to challenge for it and at least make some sort of attempt to win the ball. Downing NEVER does, ask the Middlesborough fans.

As for Ronaldo, he doesn't tackle much no, but he doesn't out either and is more than willing to push people about and use his upper body strength, something Downing doesn't do.

Smicer has more aggression in his game... look how frustrated the fans got with him.

You then go on about Wingers main skills? What utter . Footballers are footballers and it completely depends completely on the system as to what skills a "winger"/wide player needs.

Kevin Kilbane's a very average winger who's made a career out of being able to beat full backs arially on diagnal long balls from right backs and hard work and helping stop sides playing.

Gareth Barry's been a box to box left sided midfielder for years giving defensive solidity, ball retention and drive to the left hand side at Villa.

You mention his "pace". Downings not what you'd call a quick player. He's not slow but pace isn't his main attribute what so ever. His best attributes are all technical, his crossing, body shape, passing, shooting, set peices and even his vision. You also bang on about his crossing... Again, I'll say to you, whats the point? We have no players who thrive of this kind of service what so ever. Keane is awful in the air and doesn't attack crosses and Torres, while he can, and probably will try its not and never will be his game. If we had Fowler, I'd see your arguement, but we dont.

I'll say it once more in capitals for you....

WE HAVE NO PLAYERS WHO THRIVE OFF THAT TYPE OF SERVICE. Its not even as if we have a right winger who'd make the most of over hit crosses...

As for saying a winger needs "tricks"... hell... how old are you? Giggs, Robben and McManaman hardly had a trick between them and all could beat players for fun with there eyes closed.

To say we have a team who thrive of crosses is simply . We don't, its wrong to say we do. Gerrard's one goal here and there and Torres one goal here and there doesn't mean we do. The amount of quality balls Pennant whips in theres never anyone to convert them is a joke, no-one bothers there to get into the box and attack the things.

I'm not even arguing with you no more lad, you're chatting complete and utter rubbish. You keep living in your fantasy world were we have a good enough defence, Bentley is better than Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso and the signing of two decent players will win us the league and leave us even more open at the back for teams to expose our weaknesses.

Well done...

Yet agian you have failed the basics in reading.

Read my post agian as i don't think you understand any thing.

You a idiot that don't know his ar.se from his elbow when it comes to football.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Alright lad yeah!

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:43 am

LegBarnes wrote:Bently is like what 21 ?

I think he got as much tallent as gerrard did at that age.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:36 pm

GYBS wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
GYBS wrote:It might take the manager a bit of time to get to it but a 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard and Babel running rampant on the outside and Keane playing in the hole is the way forward.

so moving gerrard from a position he was outstanding at last season and formed a lethal partnership with torres just so keane can fit in ?

So moving Gerrard to play in a position he was ALSO outstanding (and arguably better) in 3 seasons ago just to fit in Keane is such as bad thing aswell?

a position the guy also hates and was succesful only cause he kept moving inside . would also break up the partnership he has with torres - why remake the wheel - add to it .[/quote]
But that's the point. Stick Gerrard on the right in that 4-2-3-1 and he will pop up absolutely everywhere, sure he has a few defensive duties on the that side when we lose the ball but it is simply a STARTING POINT. Gerrard, Keane and Babel are clver enough to interchange throughout the game particularly with Torres occupying the attention of at least 2 defenders most of the time.

by **aCe'** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:22 pm

Scottbot wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
GYBS wrote:It might take the manager a bit of time to get to it but a 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard and Babel running rampant on the outside and Keane playing in the hole is the way forward.

so moving gerrard from a position he was outstanding at last season and formed a lethal partnership with torres just so keane can fit in ?

So moving Gerrard to play in a position he was ALSO outstanding (and arguably better) in 3 seasons ago just to fit in Keane is such as bad thing aswell?

a position the guy also hates and was succesful only cause he kept moving inside . would also break up the partnership he has with torres - why remake the wheel - add to it .

But that's the point. Stick Gerrard on the right in that 4-2-3-1 and he will pop up absolutely everywhere, sure he has a few defensive duties on the that side when we lose the ball but it is simply a STARTING POINT. Gerrard, Keane and Babel are clver enough to interchange throughout the game particularly with Torres occupying the attention of at least 2 defenders most of the time.[/quote]
Why would we play Gerrard out of position and Keane out of position ( not to mention Babel, Kuyt or whoever it is who will be playing on the left - also playing out of position) just to stick to the 4-2-3-1 formation ?
While i agree that the formation looked great at the end of last season and i thought we'd stick to it this season and probably try to get players to complement our playing style, Rafa clearly had different ideas when he went out and signed Keane.
As things stand i think our best formation now is the 4-4-2 and while i agree that Gerrard might be better off played on the right side (simply for lack of better options), i dont think that moving Keane around would be worthwhile or for all that matters effective or beneficial.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:03 pm

aCe' wrote:Why would we play Gerrard out of position

and Keane out of position

( not to mention Babel, Kuyt or whoever it is who will be playing on the left - also playing out of position) just to stick to the 4-2-3-1 formation ?

Gerrard would not be 'playing out of position' on the right of that front 3

Keane would not be 'playing out of position' as 2nd striker in that front 3

Babel is neither winger nor striker (I know he'd like to play striker) but he has had his best games for the club playing on the left-handside in a 4-2-3-1

by **aCe'** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:19 pm

Scottbot wrote:
aCe' wrote:Why would we play Gerrard out of position

and Keane out of position

( not to mention Babel, Kuyt or whoever it is who will be playing on the left - also playing out of position) just to stick to the 4-2-3-1 formation ?

Gerrard would not be 'playing out of position' on the right of that front 3

Keane would not be 'playing out of position' as 2nd striker in that front 3

Babel is neither winger nor striker (I know he'd like to play striker) but he has had his best games for the club playing on the left-handside in a 4-2-3-1

seems we have different definitions for 'out of position' but fair enough i guess.
As for Keane playing 'the gerrard role' of last season i quite simply cant see him doing anywhere near as good a job as gerrard did last season. Although many here seem to think he's the great second striker we were always lacking i can't seem to recall Gerrard playing as a second striker last season. IMO it was more a play maker role where he moves behind opoosition midfielders across the width of the pitch depending on his pace,vision and brilliant passing abilities. Keane would not only struggle to score (not as many as you would expect) playing that role, he'd also struggle to provide as many goals to Torres and the other forwards. He can be very frustrating at times while on possession, losing the ball way too easily at times and trying to pick out the wrong pass..etc

As for Babel's best position, i cant really comment on his best position as straightforwardly as you did since he's played on the left wing (mostly of the 4231 you mention) every single time i have seen him in a red shirt and you have obviously seen him play in a different number of positions for us so...

Anyways just to make things clear, i would prefer us to play the 4-2-3-1 but -and after Keane's arrival- i think that if we do, we should probably try to play Keane on the right and keep Gerrard in the middle with Torres alone upfront. Surely, if Gerrard can roam around and cut inside and create through the middle having been put on the right in your formation, Keane can do the same ?!

by **Scottbot** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:50 pm

aCe' wrote:Anyways just to make things clear, i would prefer us to play the 4-2-3-1 but -and after Keane's arrival- i think that if we do, we should probably try to play Keane on the right and keep Gerrard in the middle with Torres alone upfront. Surely, if Gerrard can roam around and cut inside and create through the middle having been put on the right in your formation, Keane can do the same ?!

I'm sure Keane could do a decent job playing in that right-hand spot but I don't think he can do anywhere as good a job as Gerrard. As for playing the central role I've no doubt he would play a little closer to Torres than the Captain did last season. The problem is we don't have ANYONE to play wide-right. Absolutely no-one. The manager seems to have given up on Pennant entirely and is now persisting with Kuyt regardless of the formation. I don't understand it (unless he was hoping to use Barry on the left and switch Babel to the right flank). Either way I think that Gerrard will end up playing the position (on the right) again this season (whether he likes it or not) because there is no other option. It might not be ideal for a lot of people and I know many posters (and the entire tabloid media) say that Gerrard MUST play centre-middle but they always overlook the fantastic job he did playing there a couple of seasons back.

As for Babel, I wasn't trying to say he has been played in many other positions but it's seemed strange that you should imply putting him wide-left in the 4-2-3-1 was 'playing him out of position when that is his role for Holland and also for us last year.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:03 pm

Why spend £20,300,000 on a striker, to then go and play him "on the right with freedom".

Rediculous. Absoloutely rediculous.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:20 pm

You can put your house on Keane getting shifted outwide

We all know its happening and soon.

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:02 pm

Ciggy wrote:You can put your house on Keane getting shifted outwide

We all know its happening and soon.

Not that I would mind that, and it wouldn't surprise me if it happens, but I can't see it. Not this time. He wasn't bought to be played there, but no doubt he'll be instructed on occasion to do so, but in a 4-4-2. We still need a left and right winger, though once Babel and Aurelio come back, it will present a "nice problem" for us and give the team a lot more balance. Rafa spent too much money to be f*cking about with where he wants to play Keane. He's started up front with Torres a few times, and this is where he will stay. I will bet my house on it.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:37 am

Ciggy wrote:You can put your house on Keane getting shifted outwide

We all know its happening and soon.

I wish I could say ya chatting :censored:

and Rafa would never do that...

I really wish I could tell you that...

But footballs no fairytale...

(shawshank redemption)

:buttrock

by **Toffeehater** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:12 pm

I won't mine we switch back to the 4-2-3-1 formation where torres is alone upfront and keane playing in the hole as the 2nd striker like gerrard last season . He would be still as effective i reckon except that he would be playing deeper . Torres is better alone upfront where he does not need to worry where his strike partner is , does not need to pass to him like they were doing in the 1st game against sunderland . They should some nice passes and touches though but the hesitancy to shoot , especially when keane was still on .

by **samurai3000** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:10 pm

I don't think rafa will play keane wide. For that amount of money he could have bought a world class winger. As the past few games keane and torres have been up front forming a decent partnership. You wait and watch it flow with rivers of goals!!!

by **Owzat** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:47 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Why spend £20,300,000 on a striker, to then go and play him "on the right with freedom".

Rediculous. Absoloutely rediculous.

No more ridiculous than spending £20.3m on a striker and playing him up front, potentially detrimentally to the team, simply because he cost £20.3m.

At the end of the day players cost what they cost, some cost nothing. What a manager has to do is decide on the best formation and best players to suit that formation (or vice versa) and once they're here they are equals. If the manager deems a player can play wide when they're a striker, so be it. If they are the best option and do well enough then who cares. But to suggest we should play Keane and up front because he cost £20.3m is the utmost in ludicrous notions.

Should the mancs have persisted with Veron because he cost £28.1m? Should Chelsea have persisted with Shevchenko simply because he cost £30m? Should spudz have done likewise with Rebrov at £11m? Should we never play Gerrard because he cost nothing?

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