Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:23 pm

In hindsight, he could've and oh so very easily looking back, but in certain instances he's decided that rather than having no player to fill a particular gap, he'd rather have a decent to good player there - rather than having no player/sh!t player to come in and using the greater slice of the funds to purchase just one player of a higher calibre (assuming he spent the funds wisely) for a specific position.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:37 pm

LegBarnes wrote:Name me a english side that has won the prem who hasnt had a good winger

In reverse order, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal. Of course each of these sides have had exceptional wide players (Ronaldo, Robben, Pires etc.) but I'm not being cheeky--I'm using your own definition of a winger...

Winger for me is down the line always get crosses in shouldn't be tracking back or cutting in side to much unless of course plan A isn't working.

How often have you seen the Mancs or Chelsea or Arsenal send their wide players bombing down the wings pinging crosses into the box in the past few seasons? I don't think the Mancs have done it since Beckham left, Chelsea hasn't had an out-and-out touchline-hugging, cross-whipping winger since Gronkjaer and Arsenal has specialized in the wide player who cuts in-field for years (Pires, Ljungberg, Rosicky, Hleb, Walcott...).

And, these teams have very few strikers who feed off crosses. RVN did but he's long gone, Drogba can be deadly from crosses but does not really rely on them. The same's true of Adebayor. And, players like Tevez, Rooney, Henry, Van Persie, Anelka, Kalou etc. do not thrive on attacking crosses so it's no surprise that their teams aren't set up to bombard the box from wide areas.

I dont see how this is a problem get the blood cash out and buy a top winger or two.

Well, I think that, like our main rivals, Rafa has other priorities than signing top out-and-out wingers: the kind of lads who come off the pitch with chalk white boots and who spend the majority of the match with hands on hips, waiting for the ball and the rare opportunity to skin the fullback and get to the byline before curling a beauty right onto the centre-forward's bonce at the far post.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate that style of play (I do very much)...I'm just saying that it's increasingly rare to see in the upper echelons of club football--even in England. As such, those waiting for Rafa to splash the cash on old school wingers are probably going to be very disappointed yet again this transfer window.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:39 pm

Reg wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:So, I think Quaresma was never going to be a serious option for us given both of these factors. He doesn't seem to work hard enough defensively (and his interview suggests he's not interested in giving it a go) for Rafa's tastes and he doesn't seem to offer that infield, between-the-lines creativity that Rafa values.

A defining description of LFC and the fans - we buy fancy foreigners when in fact we want scousers.

A team full of Carras and Gerrards is what we want and we scour the world looking for them blissfully unaware that the best player profiles come from within a 20 mile radius of the ground.

Alas poor Yorrick..........

So, is Torres a 'fancy foreigner' or an honourary scouser?

He's proof that not all that come from abroad don't suit the league or our style of play.

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:53 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Name me a english side that has won the prem who hasnt had a good winger

In reverse order, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal. Of course each of these sides have had exceptional wide players (Ronaldo, Robben, Pires etc.) but I'm not being cheeky--I'm using your own definition of a winger...

Winger for me is down the line always get crosses in shouldn't be tracking back or cutting in side to much unless of course plan A isn't working.

How often have you seen the Mancs or Chelsea or Arsenal send their wide players bombing down the wings pinging crosses into the box in the past few seasons? I don't think the Mancs have done it since Beckham left, Chelsea hasn't had an out-and-out touchline-hugging, cross-whipping winger since Gronkjaer and Arsenal has specialized in the wide player who cuts in-field for years (Pires, Ljungberg, Rosicky, Hleb, Walcott...).

And, these teams have very few strikers who feed off crosses. RVN did but he's long gone, Drogba can be deadly from crosses but does not really rely on them. The same's true of Adebayor. And, players like Tevez, Rooney, Henry, Van Persie, Anelka, Kalou etc. do not thrive on attacking crosses so it's no surprise that their teams aren't set up to bombard the box from wide areas.

I dont see how this is a problem get the blood cash out and buy a top winger or two.

Well, I think that, like our main rivals, Rafa has other priorities than signing top out-and-out wingers: the kind of lads who come off the pitch with chalk white boots and who spend the majority of the match with hands on hips, waiting for the ball and the rare opportunity to skin the fullback and get to the byline before curling a beauty right onto the centre-forward's bonce at the far post.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate that style of play (I do very much)...I'm just saying that it's increasingly rare to see in the upper echelons of club football--even in England. As such, those waiting for Rafa to splash the cash on old school wingers are probably going to be very disappointed yet again this transfer window.

OK what you do is mash loads of corn flakes in a bowl add 1 tin of gold paint leave for 1 day and you have gold.

But back to the point of things you might not see man u chavs or arsholes use old skool winger style with there setup but it still an effective way to open up gaps in defences and draws players out of position.

As you mention about players not having the game to make best use of crosses we do have a player torres who is as good wit his head as with his feet , gerrard who can make late runs and score headers and kuyt who also is really good in air , problem is we will never know cos we never get chance to test it do we ?

Dirk and torres have had great goals from headers and crosses at there old clubs due to fact they crossed the ball with conviction.

About rafa too he made transfer mistakes first season in he never should have sold hamann he was one of our best players att he time and still had years left.

Sorry last bit of totaly of topic but it poped in my head haha.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:35 pm

LegBarnes wrote:As you mention about players not having the game to make best use of crosses we do have a player torres who is as good wit his head as with his feet , gerrard who can make late runs and score headers and kuyt who also is really good in air , problem is we will never know cos we never get chance to test it do we ?

To counter, I'd say that Torres--while strong in the air and solid with his head--is far more interested in receiving a through ball to feet. Also, I doubt Kuyt would even be on the pitch if we had wingers and Gerrard would probably be instructed to hang back to ensure we weren't too exposed when our wingers piled forward.

In any event, there's still the fullbacks to put in crosses with our current system so we'll still see Torres getting a few headed goals this season (a la vs. Tottenham, when Finnan crossed it in).

As for Hamann, he was sold at the end of Rafa's 2nd season and I was under the impression that he wanted to leave to get more football, having seen Sissoko's emergence reduce his playing opportunities.

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:40 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:As you mention about players not having the game to make best use of crosses we do have a player torres who is as good wit his head as with his feet , gerrard who can make late runs and score headers and kuyt who also is really good in air , problem is we will never know cos we never get chance to test it do we ?

To counter, I'd say that Torres--while strong in the air and solid with his head--is far more interested in receiving a through ball to feet. Also, I doubt Kuyt would even be on the pitch if we had wingers and Gerrard would probably be instructed to hang back to ensure we weren't too exposed when our wingers piled forward. In any event, there's still the fullbacks to put in crosses with our current system so we'll still see Torres getting a few headed goals this season (a la vs. Tottenham, when Finnan crossed it in).

As for Hamann, he was sold at the end of Rafa's 2nd season and I was under the impression that he wanted to leave to get more football, having seen Sissoko's emergence reduce his playing opportunities.

Still was a mistake to sell him tho , as for full backs crossing be nice if they can do it right but i want crosses from byelines not deep ones , they are easy to defend.

We haven't won a league since barnes went down hill and the left he was out last top winger its pretty simple to see we need at least one.

by **burjennio** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:55 pm

Ricardo Quaresma was bombed out of Barca because he had a clash with then manager Frank Rijkaard and stated he would never put on a Barca shirt again as long as he was in charge. He was 21 and had been at the club for a whole 10 months. I think that probably tells you all you need to know about his attitude and views on his importance to a 1 of the worlds premier clubs.

Hes also even more 1 footed than Babel

Tho when you can do this with your right foot it can probably be overlooked banana

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:56 pm

LegBarnes wrote:its pretty simple to see we need at least one.

Despite my devil's advocate position above, I agree with you, mate. For me, though, Quaresma isn't the one.

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:24 pm

So the original point of this thread is that Rafa apparently scares off flare players by wanting to change their style so they can adapt to the PL, and managers like Fergie don't because they are soft and let so called players do what they want on the pitch?

Bollox on both counts. Ronaldo's first season at United was full of showboating gay step-overs with no end product. Fergie stamped that out of his game and he's a better player for it.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:02 pm

Emerald Red wrote:So the original point of this thread is that Rafa apparently scares off flare players by wanting to change their style so they can adapt to the PL, and managers like Fergie don't because they are soft and let so called players do what they want on the pitch?

I think you need to re-read the original topic starter mate. There's definately something in the "people read what they want to read" on here sometimes.

by **andy_g** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:26 pm

is anybody going to define what a flair player is and what a winger is? do flair players only do flair? and if not, at which point do they cease to become flair players and resort to being grafters or, heaven forbid, footballers?

is a winger only a winger if he gets chalk on his boots and touches the ball 5 times in a game? are there no wingers left in today's game but just wide midfielders?

this thread has thrown up so many questions that i'm lost already.

it keeps coming back to the point that what we really need is someone who can get wide, beat a man and whip in a good cross or other variety of dangerous ball in to the striker/s. whether they have flair or not or are a winger or a wide midfielder doesn't really matter. whichever way if they are not also a hard worker for the team they will never be on rafa's radar.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:47 pm

It's difficult to say Andy, but looking at the dominant two forces in the premiership at the moment we're not far off them in the balance between 'flair players' and athletes or grafters.

chelsea rely almost entirely on grafters with good footballing ability with joe cole being the obvious exception now that robben has gone. deco coming in *may* add more flair and if the kaka deal does actually go through they'll have flair coming out of their ears.

the mancs have ronaldo (but maybe not this coming season), rooney who is kind of half and half, and possibly nani and anderson. alongside those lot are a bunch of talented grafters. people like giggs and scholes can show a little flair now and again but their game is certainly not based on it.

our only pure flair player luis garcia has gone and was successful within certain limits and almost always more in the champions league than the prem. we now have gerrard, torres and to a degree babel - none of them base their game on flair but can do it when necessary to great effect.

we all love to watch beautiful skillful football with the players really turning on the style but i'm not sure that that is what is needed to win the league at the moment. one or two players with the ability to turn a game with a full complement of players who will allow them to play to their advantages is what we have and it should be enough if used correctly.

by **andy_g** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:00 pm

LFC2007 wrote:It's difficult to say Andy, but looking at the dominant two forces in the premiership at the moment we're not far off them in the balance between 'flair players' and athletes or grafters.

chelsea rely almost entirely on grafters with good footballing ability with joe cole being the obvious exception now that robben has gone. deco coming in *may* add more flair and if the kaka deal does actually go through they'll have flair coming out of their ears.

the mancs have ronaldo (but maybe not this coming season), rooney who is kind of half and half, and possibly nani and anderson. alongside those lot are a bunch of talented grafters. people like giggs and scholes can show a little flair now and again but their game is certainly not based on it.

our only pure flair player luis garcia has gone and was successful within certain limits and almost always more in the champions league than the prem. we now have gerrard, torres and to a degree babel - none of them base their game on flair but can do it when necessary to great effect.

we all love to watch beautiful skillful football with the players really turning on the style but i'm not sure that that is what is needed to win the league at the moment. one or two players with the ability to turn a game with a full complement of players who will allow them to play to their advantages is what we have and it should be enough if used correctly.

eeerrrrrr..... hhhhmmmmm.... deja vu..... :Oo:

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:03 pm

You asked us to define what a flair player is... :grinning:

by **Simari** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:33 am

Football is no different from any other team based activity. If you are unwilling to adapt every so slightly for the team, you don't belong in it.

Consider that an interview for Quaresma and he bombed miserably - because he demonstrated very clearly that it was all about him, and not the team.

Flair is great for the fans, all of us love to see it. We want to see LFC play with flair and win every trophy and cup on this planet. But you need players that are willing to be part of the team first and foremost. Unlike Mancs and Chelsea, Rafa cannot afford to dump 12-13m on an experienced footballer who still doesn't get the concept of teamwork.

Anyone that thinks Rafa doesn't like flair, should spend a moment thinking about Aimar's role at Valencia ...

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