Liverpool FC Forum

LFC2007 wrote:I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

LFC2007 wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

Igor Zidane wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

Effes wrote:I would say someone is "World class" if they are in the top 10 in the world in their position.

Fo Dne wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

I agree to an extent about the ability to improve, but they really don't improve that much. Carragher's apparently gone from being "average" to "world class" The reality is he's always been somewhere in the middle and still is.

The difference is now, as apose to under Evans is he's well drilled, knows his job, has players around him who know theres. That in turn doesn't really make him "better" but makes him more effective. That doesn't make him better at tackling and doesn't make him quicker.... it just makes him more confident in doing what he's doing. He was very good for us under Evans as an 18 year old at the back, I saw the same things then as I do now, his timing in the tackle has always been perfect, I'm sure if you asked Kewell, Robert, Giggs, Beckham, Pires, Overmars and all the other wingers he's marked out of games in the past they'd go along with that. Basically though, he looks alot better because its no longer complete chaos around him as apose to under Evans.

Its like with Hyypia, its no coincidence how everyone was saying he was a liability a few seasons ago when he was playing next to Traore. Its no coincidence thats the only dodgy period he's ever had in a red shirt.

If you look at the likes of Bullard, Ryan Taylor and the others mentioned there are loads of players worse than that at top clubs. Dave Kitson is by far a better player than Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin, Pizzaro and Bendtner, Taylor's better than what we have by a distance, Arbeloa is solid defensively at best. Bullard is a far better footballer than the likes of Lucas, Kuyt, Babel and others...

The fact is though, these players aren't at top clubs so therefore the majority don't understand they could be better players.

Emerald Red wrote:

Effes wrote:I would say someone is "World class" if they are in the top 10 in the world in their position.

Going by this rule, then yes, the players I mentioned should easily be in a top 10 list in respective positions.

Fo Dne wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

Igor Zidane wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

And don't even sit there and say to me Lampards better than Barton.

Not even a contest. Bartons far superior in nearly every department with the exception of movement in the attacking third.

Effes wrote:If I had the time (and inclination), I think I could name 10 better keepers than Reina.

Gotta disagree, mate.  I'd have no hesitation including Reina in the top ten keepers in world football.  How many clean sheets has he kept for us the past three seasons in arguably the best club league in the world?   Undoubtedly one of the top 2 or 3 keepers in England, IMO.  Plus, he's Spain's number 2, which suggests he's better than all but one of the Spanish keepers (no shame to be behind Casillas in the pecking order).  After Buffon I struggle to think of any Serie A keepers who I'd rate ahead of Reina (including Dida and Toldo).  He's substantially better than Coupet (France's #1), IMO, and I'd have a very difficult time believing that there are any keepers in the Dutch, Portuguese, Brazilian, Argentinian, etc. leagues that come close to Reina's level.

Bad Bob wrote:

Effes wrote:If I had the time (and inclination), I think I could name 10 better keepers than Reina.

Gotta disagree, mate.  I'd have no hesitation including Reina in the top ten keepers in world football.  How many clean sheets has he kept for us the past three seasons in arguably the best club league in the world?   Undoubtedly one of the top 2 or 3 keepers in England, IMO.  Plus, he's Spain's number 2, which suggests he's better than all but one of the Spanish keepers (no shame to be behind Casillas in the pecking order).  After Buffon I struggle to think of any Serie A keepers who I'd rate ahead of Reina (including Dida and Toldo).  He's substantially better than Coupet (France's #1), IMO, and I'd have a very difficult time believing that there are any keepers in the Dutch, Portuguese, Brazilian, Argentinian, etc. leagues that come close to Reina's level.

You know what? After posting that I thought to myself "Hmm, now can I actually name them?" - and I wasn't sure.
Knew I'd get pulled up on that one.

maypaxvobiscum wrote:he is also superior when it comes to being booked or sent to jail.

LFC2007 wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:And don't even sit there and say to me Lampards better than Barton.

Not even a contest. Bartons far superior in nearly every department with the exception of movement in the attacking third.

I'm sitting here saying Lampard's a better player than Barton