Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

A comment in another thread about signings raised a question in my mind. Basically someone suggested Rafa made mistakes in the transfer market, but got shot quickly. Is this a good policy? Should you give a player a fair and reasonable length chance or offload at the first lack of performance? If that were the general policy then would Crouch have lasted three years?




I'm not sure myself whether it's best to sign someone and stick with them or cut losses and sell before more damage is done or their value goes down. In all honesty serious questions should be asked if Rafa is signing players on whims without being at leat 90% sure that signing will work. And if he is sure enough that player will work/is quality then dumping them after one season is a mistake. But then Rafa has signed the likes of Pennant and Bellamy, questionable quality (in terms of Liverpool standards) and Bellamy didn't stay long. But Pennant may be a good example, him and Crouch, as to whether you persist with a player who performs from time to time but not consistently, and whether you should have signed them in the first place.

I don't think selling the player quickly makes up for the mistake, it wastes money that could have been better spent and the lack of goals, assists or general good play will impact on the team. And when sold will the replacement chosen be any better. And you'll never know if a signing will work if you don't give them a chance, plenty on here use fergie as an example of lengthy chances although that's usually just to base their optimism on (even though times have changed)

[bigmick]

Jeez mate you are absolutely obsessed with Crouch. You make my convictions on rotation seem like a passing interest, get over it lol. Just accept that you called it wrong, he is a much better player than you've ever given him credit for and move on 

Other than that it's a strange poll as it really depends in each and every case. Of course you try and sign quality in the first place, but I would suspect that every player Rafa signs he expects or at least hopes they'll turn out to be quality. Even when they're "proven" there's no certainties, just ask Morientes. In the main, once it becomes obvious that they don't cut it then it makes sense to move them on or at the very least change the position which they play in. This he generally does IMHO. He didn't though with Crouch quite simply because Crouch clearly WAS upto it, and it makes no sense whatsoever to sell your best striker, which he was for two seasons.

Now he's sold or is selling him though, it's probably time to get oiver the fact that you don't rate him. Seriously.

[LegBarnes]

Jeez mate you are absolutely obsessed with Crouch. You make my convictions on rotation seem like a passing interest, get over it lol. Just accept that you called it wrong, he is a much better player than you've ever given him credit for and move on 

Other than that it's a strange poll as it really depends in each and every case. Of course you try and sign quality in the first place, but I would suspect that every player Rafa signs he expects or at least hopes they'll turn out to be quality. Even when they're "proven" there's no certainties, just ask Morientes. In the main, once it becomes obvious that they don't cut it then it makes sense to move them on or at the very least change the position which they play in. This he generally does IMHO. He didn't though with Crouch quite simply because Crouch clearly WAS upto it, and it makes no sense whatsoever to sell your best striker, which he was for two seasons.

Now he's sold or is selling him though, it's probably time to get oiver the fact that you don't rate him. Seriously.

Agreed crouch is a good player better torres no way but still a good level for prem.

He wants first team football yes he left yes do i blame him no so i dont see what problem is.

If we didnt have torres i am sure he would have played more last season but what can you when you got the best striker in the world ahead of you.

As far as players like big mick said it is a case by case thing this is what being a manager is all about its about judgement working with your staff to

A. get the right player from start.
B. then get a plan together to get the most out of his skill sets
C. if his form drops try to do more things to help him improve.
D. of course if nothing works you have to sell on.

Of course every player wont work in every team or league and no manager no matter how good they are can pick the right player 100% of time.

Rafa isnt the best in transfer market but he defo isnt the worst i seen.

With football 50% sucess i think is good for transfers but rafa has proven he can wheel and deal which is a must for all managers and i for one has more respect for him cos of that. 

[66-1112520797]

Well Owzat I quite like Rafas policy of shipping them out as soon as he has realised there not any good. Maybe that questions him and his scouting teams eye in the first place. But even still its better than hanging onto the dead wood. Even as a fan with no FA badge it was plain to see that Nunez for example (and I know he wasnt Rafas signing) is never going to be a David Beckham out wide right. And that kromkamp is no Alves neither, in saying that they dont have to be but they were poor players as is Voronin.

Thinking about it we have signed some sh.ite havent we   But players like Morientes, Bellamy and Crouch are on a different playing compared to the previously mentioned "dead wood". We all knew Nando was a quality player on the continent but he couldnt cut here in the season he was. Crouch while not scoring for a long period of time still gave us something towards our performances and although I knew he was eventually going to break his duck it did take some time. But people can see the quality in players IMO, and after Crouch scored he excelled even more, more so than Kuyt did after he banged in a few.

No all things considered I like the "in - out" policy, its surely better than having Diao wasting money and Zidane  pretending to be soemthings hes not.

[tubby]

At the end of the day its simple. If you sign a quality player there is more chance he will do better than an unknown. For example we signed Torres. We knew he would do well but obviously had no idea he would do as well as he did. On the other hand we signed Vorinin - I dont think I need to say any more on how he worked out other that no player of that calibre should be allowed to pull on a Liverpool shirt.

Its all down the fact that we dont have enough money but in that sense Rafa has no choice but to risk buying these shi.t players becasue he doesnt have enough funds to buy anyone better.

Our problem is Rafa is trying to make a title winning team out of a squad of which maybe only 4 or 5 players can be considered quality. The rest are and his tactics consists of the few good players that we have carrying the players. Fact is you need quality across the board to win the league and until we get that we dont stand a chance.

[Number 9]

A comment in another thread about signings raised a question in my mind. Basically someone suggested Rafa made mistakes in the transfer market, but got shot quickly. Is this a good policy? Should you give a player a fair and reasonable length chance or offload at the first lack of performance? If that were the general policy then would Crouch have lasted three years?




I'm not sure myself whether it's best to sign someone and stick with them or cut losses and sell before more damage is done or their value goes down. In all honesty serious questions should be asked if Rafa is signing players on whims without being at leat 90% sure that signing will work. And if he is sure enough that player will work/is quality then dumping them after one season is a mistake. But then Rafa has signed the likes of Pennant and Bellamy, questionable quality (in terms of Liverpool standards) and Bellamy didn't stay long. But Pennant may be a good example, him and Crouch, as to whether you persist with a player who performs from time to time but not consistently, and whether you should have signed them in the first place.

I don't think selling the player quickly makes up for the mistake, it wastes money that could have been better spent and the lack of goals, assists or general good play will impact on the team. And when sold will the replacement chosen be any better. And you'll never know if a signing will work if you don't give them a chance, plenty on here use fergie as an example of lengthy chances although that's usually just to base their optimism on (even though times have changed)

Firstly no one in their right mind would suggest that selling players makes up for mistakes.Maybe im wrong but i cant think of anyone on here that has suggested if Rafa buys a player that does not cut it,shipping him out after say one season makes everything ok.
The fact is that every player that is signed from abroad and has never played in our league is a gamble.NO manager can sign a player and know 100% that he can adapt to the EPL!
It is a unique league,the physical aspects of the game and the faster pace it is played at are the 2 factors that most players find hard to climatise to!

I think sometimes if a player shows enough in a first season he may deserve another season to see if he can make it.Saying that in some cases,Gonzalez for example the manager makes his mind up pretty quick.That is his right,he sees the players every day in training and is more qualified to judge them than anyone on here ever will be.

I dont expect every transfer to work for Rafa,yes he has made mistakes but every manager has and they always will!
What is good about Rafa is that he gets rid if he knows they are not going to make the grade rather than hang on to them and flog a dead horse,like Chelsea with Schevchenko if ya like.

As for Crouch,he played his part but it seems he wants more football than he will get at LFC which im sure every fan can respect at this stage in his career and a world cup in 2 years time!He wants to play firstly because hes a footballer and secondly he knows he will not be given enough time on the pitch to play his way into the England squad for 2010!

As for Pennant and Bellamy,they were signed with the funds we had available at the time,neither In my opinion were ever good enough for LFC but have been necessary squad members given our financial power.Both average players and proven to be just that in our League.
Bellamy is long gone and hopefully Pennant follows him before the transfer window closes!

[RedBlood]

i dont think it questions him r his scouting team its just some players dont settle in the country r maybe with teammates

i prefer rafas way then houillers way of they go when i go, they r my children  stubborness

i actually like rafas coldness towards players the way he simple sees them as tools

[Toffeehater]

Whats with signing quality players and they'll be an instant success?
Shevchenko signed for 30 million , came with a huge reputation and is a major flop , Dimitar Berbatov 10 million , David bentely free , Evra 8 million were all not that well know but have done well considering their prices .
All these players are considered cheap and were relatively unknown but they are good players now , Some players take time to settle , some never do . Money can't always buy you a torres , sometimes , they are those unknown's out there like adebayor who cost arsenal 4 million and helb who cost them 7 million . Look at the prices they are going for now . Expensive players don't always settle , give you a title winning team . too many stars can also hurt a team , look at real madrid apart from these past 2 season or chelsea these season .

[username]

look at real madrid apart from these past 2 season

Where they won the leauge both times?

[LegBarnes]

Whats with signing quality players and they'll be an instant success?
Shevchenko signed for 30 million , came with a huge reputation and is a major flop , Dimitar Berbatov 10 million , David bentely free , Evra 8 million were all not that well know but have done well considering their prices .
All these players are considered cheap and were relatively unknown but they are good players now , Some players take time to settle , some never do . Money can't always buy you a torres , sometimes , they are those unknown's out there like adebayor who cost arsenal 4 million and helb who cost them 7 million . Look at the prices they are going for now . Expensive players don't always settle , give you a title winning team . too many stars can also hurt a team , look at real madrid apart from these past 2 season or chelsea these season .

if all those players was signed by the same manager i would be impressed but most of time it is hit and miss.

[Fo Dne]

Quite simple really. Don't sign in the first place.

Any manager can make a mistake, any manager can sign an average player. Its what they then do with them.

The other issue, is the players the money is spent on. You have to look round and ask can it be spent on better players and in most cases the answers yes. Rafa has wasted money on players that he doesn't need and also players that aren't upto standard. Whats worse, is players that are upto standard, are moving clubs and we aren't showing any interest in them at all.

Benitez is at best very average in the market. He's not signed complete duffers and he's not really lost alot of money and he's also gained a few pounds, but signing players like Leto and Lucas are just plain and simple wastes. I mean, you can't guess whether a player will be good, you have to do your home work and firgure it out.

People bang on about Torres and Mascherano when he's had money to spend and Alonso... Alonso, superb, can't fault, same as Torres and Mascherano. But the fact is if you gave me £15,000,000 plus I'd expect to get it right 99 times out of a hundred.

He's spent big on Babel, who's clearly not worth it. He's spent big on Kuyt who again, wasn't worth it. He's let players like Ashton and Woodgate slip under the net, while signing other players nowhere of the same standard for around the same price. He's also signed to many players rather than going out and signing out an out quality. I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

[account deleted by request]

Good post Stu

I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need


I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

[Fo Dne]

Good post Stu

I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need


I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

[LegBarnes]

Good post Stu

I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need


I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

EDITED

[account deleted by request]

Good post Stu

I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need


I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

EDITED

Kinnell whats up? As far as I can see all he's done is given his opinion and backed it up with his reasons, no need to go off the deep end mate.