Liverpool FC Forum

[andy_g]

i think the age of the player and their previous experience plays a big part in the time they need to adapt. i also take stu's point about players not becoming something they are not, but i don't entirely agree with it.

its completely possible for a person in whatever profession to have qualities and potential that remains hidden until the right set of circumstances bring it out. likewise its possible for certain attributes to disappear in the wrong circumstances. loads of variables such as the training they receive, their happiness in the workplace, the state of the fragile human trait of confidence, inspiration, fitness and so on and on and on and on. i'd never claim to be an expert in football but i think i know a fair bit about human beings, skills and potential.

applying that to the babel argument i think he is a very talented player who lacks a lot of belief in his current situation. moments such as the goal against derby where he took out 2 defenders with a little shift in bodyweight, or the backheel against besiktas, show a natural innate talent that will never go away. what he needs is the nurturing which will allow him to express himself on a regular basis. its there in flashes but  these flashes are frustratingly rare.

he was a regular starter last year but in most of the expected and imagined line ups for next season that people have posted he's hardly appeared. everyone's favourite donkey kuyt has even looked to be nailed on at right midfield in a 4.4.2 with barry on the left. given a run at right mid or up front with torres (or even instead of when he inevitably misses the odd game) will, i hope and suspect, show us a lot more of what he is capable of. i just hope that rafa, against his natural tendencies, has put an arm round the lads shoulder and told him the same.

[tubby]

We just signed a new goal keeper.

[dawson99]

yet agaion ignore the youth and reserves and sign another jonny foreigner... addnig to wages and no doubt shipping off next season

[Owzat]

Crouch now gone, Pennant rumoured to be on his way to Blackburn and Carson maybe sold to and Rafa will up his total of first team players signed and sold to 15 - depending on whether Alonso stays or not (16)

[Fo Dne]

IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.

Do you have a short memory span or something?  I remember Manchester ripping us a new one at Anfield, when he was in midfield.  Gerrard rarely turns up against big sides no matter where he plays and thats a fact.  Also his partnership with Mascherano was a complete disaster for most of last season, we played some really disgusting football with those two in the middle.  There was just no balance at all, the passing was horrendous most of the time and on top of that, we were dominated by crappy teams.  Gerrard should stay where he is, because he's by far most effective playing just behind Torres.

What complete and utter rubbish you are chatting. Gerrard's only good games against good sides come from when he plays in central midfield or on the right. Nearly everytime we play United at Anfield he's the best player on the pitch and the same with Chelsea when he's played in position.

To be quite honest, people like you aren't even worth replying to.

[Fo Dne]

Good post Stu

I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need


I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

EDITED

Kinnell whats up? As far as I can see all he's done is given his opinion and backed it up with his reasons, no need to go off the deep end mate.

well i was giving mine mabye i went little over top but i couldnt at time find any other words to show my anger at his views.

Tbh i think babel is going to be a blinding player and for some one to talk so much in 100 odd words is beyound me.

One season at the club and he got people ripping him like that it just aint on i just for one thank rafa judgement is far greater then that muppet.

Babel has a bright future at this club and i for one want he to stay more then alonso.

Mark my words you see 100% more from him this season MARK MY WORDS. 

A player who can't control a ball is going to be blinding?
A player who has no appreciation of a simple 1-2 is going to be blinding?
A player with the vision of Mikey from big brother is going to be blinding?
A player who's movement in the final third shows a complete lack penetration is going to be blinding?
A player who hides from full backs and doesn't show for a pass is going to be blinding?
A player who runs down blind alleys and into players is going to be blinding?
A player who gives the ball away 50% of the time he has is is going to be blinding?



Yeah alright kid.

Dya know why he's got people saying that about him? Because its true lad. Some people actually know what they are talkin about, some people actually understand you can't make diamonds out of . As a footballer you either have it, or you dont. You don't all of a sudden "get it"....

I think its quite pathetic you're using that excuse to be honest, one season in.... the lads player 40 odd games. Its like saying, Voronin's , but we'll give him another season just to prove it to us... WHY? He's not good enough, get rid. Simple as that.

I also have to laugh at your comment about Benitez judgement being so good. If so why sign players like Arbeloa, Leto, Crouch, Kuyt, Degen, Carson, Itandje, Padelli, Roque, Aurelio Voronin etc etc.

Great judgement that... really is. 



As for you wanting him to stay more than Alonso... How stupid must you be? Alonso has proven over the years he's a top player with top attributes and knows how to disguise his weaknesses, he's bossed games against better sides and he's helped LFC dominate possession in many games against good and poor sides. Babel's scored a couple of irrelivant goals against teams which mean nothing... WOW!!!

The new Henry then yeah?

Keep dreaming. Not good enough, and just like Sissoko, Baros, Cisse, Traore and all the rest... he never will be something he's not.

Now run along...

[metalhead]

IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.

Do you have a short memory span or something?  I remember Manchester ripping us a new one at Anfield, when he was in midfield.  Gerrard rarely turns up against big sides no matter where he plays and thats a fact.  Also his partnership with Mascherano was a complete disaster for most of last season, we played some really disgusting football with those two in the middle.  There was just no balance at all, the passing was horrendous most of the time and on top of that, we were dominated by crappy teams.  Gerrard should stay where he is, because he's by far most effective playing just behind Torres.

I disagree, completely disagree! just watch the 0-0 game against the Mancs back in 2005, Gerrard was MOTM by far in that game playing in center midfield, his tracking back, positioning and tackling were absolutely superb!!! Watch the Chelsea game, the 1-1 draw last season, again quality! passing, movment, etc... top notch.

I have to agree with people saying he is best as center midfield not second striker, he bosses games in his favorite position thats why he is a beast.

[Fo Dne]

i think the age of the player and their previous experience plays a big part in the time they need to adapt. i also take stu's point about players not becoming something they are not, but i don't entirely agree with it.

its completely possible for a person in whatever profession to have qualities and potential that remains hidden until the right set of circumstances bring it out. likewise its possible for certain attributes to disappear in the wrong circumstances. loads of variables such as the training they receive, their happiness in the workplace, the state of the fragile human trait of confidence, inspiration, fitness and so on and on and on and on. i'd never claim to be an expert in football but i think i know a fair bit about human beings, skills and potential.

applying that to the babel argument i think he is a very talented player who lacks a lot of belief in his current situation. moments such as the goal against derby where he took out 2 defenders with a little shift in bodyweight, or the backheel against besiktas, show a natural innate talent that will never go away. what he needs is the nurturing which will allow him to express himself on a regular basis. its there in flashes but  these flashes are frustratingly rare.

he was a regular starter last year but in most of the expected and imagined line ups for next season that people have posted he's hardly appeared. everyone's favourite donkey kuyt has even looked to be nailed on at right midfield in a 4.4.2 with barry on the left. given a run at right mid or up front with torres (or even instead of when he inevitably misses the odd game) will, i hope and suspect, show us a lot more of what he is capable of. i just hope that rafa, against his natural tendencies, has put an arm round the lads shoulder and told him the same.

Age doesn't make players good or bad though. Never has, never will. Age has nothing to do with how good a player is, I'm sick of hearing the he's only 20 excuse. Owen, Fowler and Rooney at 17 and 18 were ripping teams to shreds every week. Age is nothing, ability, confidence and having a manager who knows how to use you is everything.

You then mention about attributes being hidden. Correct, I agree 100% with you. That does happen and can. But because they are hidden doesn't mean they aren't there in the first place. Its like if a tree crashes down in the woods, if no-ones there to hear it does it make a sound? Of course it does. Just because no-ones there to hear it doesn't mean it never happened. The point which you make is perfectly valid in all walks of life.

What I would say to you is football attributes don't improve MUCH throughout a career of a footballer. Of course there are very minor improvements in a few area's but you never get players who improve by a whole level in one area. For example, a player like Hyypia when 20 would never have gained a great deal of pace. He may have gained half a yard when he reached his peak due to optimum fitness, but its the same with every attribute. Sissoko is a great example of this as is Baros. Sissoko when he learns to pass and control a ball will be the new Vieira i kept hearing (well why didn't he learn to then?) Baros when he just learns to pick his head up will be an excellent player, (well didn't he just "pick his head up")?

Players are moulded from 13 or 14 once they reach that age there only real changes in style become physical growth, there touch and technique are pretty much set, obviously they fine tune it as they get older and become more consistent but in general its set and you have a good idea of how good they will be. If you compared Gerrard and Barton at the same age you'd see the same player, to be honest Barton was better many people would tell you. (People who knew them as kids and were involved with Whiston Juniors.

But the reality is Gerrard grew into a monster, Barton didnt. Barton is still an excellent player, just Gerrard's physical attributes and mental attitude make him better. Barton has alot of Roy Keane in him in his movement and use of the ball aswell as his drive. What he lacks is the discipline to make it as a top class player.

Obviously, people won't like hearing that as it doesn't fit in with common opinion and isn't something alot of people understand.

With regards to your points about Babel, you can sit there and praise the goal against Derby all day. It was well taken and hats off, but the fact is to judge a player and to see quality you have to look at both sides. Its no good saying, yes well he completely outfoxed Lee McEveley with a clever shimmy, that makes him world class. For a start the defending was a joke. The shape and pattern of the defence was woeful, he didn't show good movement to get where he was and once he recieved the ball for two defenders to jump on there the way they did was awful. To be fair, I like that fake, I play myself and its one I use. Now I'm telling you from experience that works a treat on a sunday league pitch. Everytime, but the higher the level you go up the less it works. I've played against players Leo Roget who played second division and I'm telling you now, had I tried that on them I'd have been brushed aside and had the ball taken off me no problem. Obviously theres a massive difference in the quality of the premier league but the fact is you have to analyse both sides. You can't sit there and say simpley "You can only beat whats infront of you".

Its like when people judge players like Ashton and think they are and Crouch and think he's great. The real test comes against better players, IE I would never sit there and say "Crouch really strong in the air because of the great header he  scored, he completely dominated Steven Finnan in the air all game". You sit there and watch how he does against John Terry, thats how you guage real quality. You match other players strengths against each other. If you watch Crouch consistently dominate Terry, Ferdinand, Hyypia etc etc etc, then you'd say he's class in the air.

Forgive me for going back to this but Dean Ashton, he holds players like Terry, Carragher, Hyypia and Ferdinand off. He scores goals against these sides and he shows strength against these players. He shows he can bring a ball down, control it and pass to a team mate (sometimes with them in great positions) with these players on his back. this shows more ability than say Crouch doing it against Anton Ferdinand or Gabbidon or some other poor excuse for a centre half.

When judging players like Babel I look at all aspects. What did he do, what could he have done, what should he have done, was what he done better than what he *could or should* have done. Could he do that against better or fitter players. Is that what he usually does.

What I found myself expecting last season was him to lose the ball alot by running into players and the amount of times it happened per game was a joke.

Now not all players make the right decisions. But some have enough ability to make wrong decisions and wrong options yet still get things right. Long term. Theres always a simple option, a good option, the right option, an exception option and a poor option.

Example, Milan Baros (Vs Deportivo for Liverpool at Anfield 2005). He won the ball oon the halfway line after chasing it down, it was class quite simply how he won the ball. A good player would then of either held the ball up and passed it or would have ran the ball into the corner, picked a pass or would have simply passed to a team mate (even a backwards pass). An exceptional player would have done one of these things aswell. Now a world beater may have won it, skinned two players carried it 50 yards and smacked one into the net.

Baros decided to run with the ball down the wing, down a blind alley and ended up losing the ball, letting it go out for a goal kick. The wrong option, the only wrong option out of a possible 5 or 6.

To finish off anyway, the points simple, players either have it or they don't. They either get it right more often than not or they don't. They don't gain something they never have, they will never gain a world class touch from having a poor one, they will never gain world class intelligence from having average intelligence.

Babel has the ability to be a decent sub and a bit part player in a top side. Nothing more. He'll never be a top player, you only have to compare him to Arjen Robben to see that.

[Sabre]

I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

[Effes]

The thing about Gerrard playing behind Torres.

It was the best Rafa could do with the best 11 he had at his disposal.
If Gerrard was used as a CM in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 then it would have left us lacking
on the right flank, as we'd only have Pennant or Benayoun to play there. (Forget Kuyt
playing there).
It also would have left Xabi or Masch being left out.
And let's be honest - the team was transformed when we changed to the "new" formation".

Now looking at our supposed signings this Summer, it looks like Rafa is gonna use the 4-2-3-1
as our "default" starting 11 this season. And deploy full-backs in a more attacking role - I guess
at home this will be a huge benefit especially against sides who want to sit back.

RE: Babel - his close control is such a let down; and his "game intelligence" (as Rafa would say) is
minimal.
Now, I remember Ronaldo's first season at Man U - all he seemd to do were step overs; he
didn't exactly set the world alight. But you could see he had that close control - the improvement
he showed in the following 2 seasons to win player of the year twice was exceptional.
I just cant see Babel having the "building blocks" to improve to such a standard as to be a world beater,
or even a dead cert starter for LFC.

I think the signings of Babel and Kuyt were similar - it was getting to the end of the transfer deadline -
we didn't have anyone signed, and it was a bit of panic from Rafa. A "he'll do" kind of signing.
Put it this way, if they weren't LFC players now - no one would be calling for their signature.

[Effes]

Forgot to mention, Leto...

What a pathetic signing... he is embarrassingly bad. He's as bad as Nunez!

Obviously Rafa hadn't seen him in the flesh - but that scout should be sacked or sued.

[LegBarnes]

If players are good dont matter what age they are they will play any area of pitch they are good in like they a seasoned pro.

Exp i think is some thing that helps players fit into more complex roles on the field IE. filling holes in wierd formations like the 4-3-2-1 you need 2 great Attacking midfielders in that formation to attack center and wings.Just like chavski played first season with jose.

One of biggest problems with rafa tbh is the way he trys to muti role players I for one think this doesnt helps players in there short term form tho it can be said this will help them fit into more areas of pitch for differnt match conditions.

Babel is a worry I feel he is built as a striker but rafa plays him in wide areas i can only think this is for a 4-3-3 formation so he can muti task and play wide and come inside as a suportive striker but i worry this will only confuse him in short term.

Also this effects gerrard at times some times he plays center or right wing or behind torres now you all know gerrard tho is always a good level of play hasnt reached the form of 2004-2006 due to this.

Gerrard for me is the best right sided midfielder in the prem and mabye close to best in world he is best crosser of ball i seen since beckham and he can run with the ball alot better then beckham ever could and if beckham never was around i think we would have seen gerrard on right in england team in every match.

I know gerrard likes to play center but i know this is down to his control issues mabye due to his slight OCD he likes to access every where all the time but when he plays right he is single minded and very effective.

Well i know i went a bit off topic but wanted to my ideas outs.

[Alonso14]

I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

I guess you can add most Goalkeepers to that also.

[Fo Dne]

I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

[Igor Zidane]

I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.