Liverpool FC Forum

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:46 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Quite simple really. Rafa has wasted money on players that he doesn't need and also players that aren't upto standard.
------------------------
Benitez is at best very average in the market. He's not signed complete duffers and he's not really lost alot of money and he's also gained a few pounds,

A tad contradicting there, don't you think? For any business person, to buy something and then sell goods that he finds to be damaged for the price he got it for or for a few quid more than he paid, isn't average. By any standard of any practice, that is brilliant business skills.

And name these players he's "wasted" money on? To build a squad, you need to spend, no? And a squad is what we needed.

How many world class players had we got before Benitez took over, in every area of the pitch? Right now, I'd count at least four (including Pepe) at the back, at least three in midfield, and certainly one up front. That's 8 world class players that can play in a 1st full strength team on any given day. We are missing two world class wide men, and a world class back up for Torres. That's three short of a truly world class side IMO. Three short from true greatness.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:54 pm

Effes wrote:Forgot to mention, Leto...

What a pathetic signing... he is embarrassingly bad. He's as bad as Nunez!

Obviously Rafa hadn't seen him in the flesh - but that scout should be sacked or sued.

It seems that a lot of south Americans we've signed have been a let down, with the obvious exception of Mash (or even Lucas, though this is debatable). Certainly, to rephrase, those that have been bought purely for the reserves.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:20 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

If what you was meant to do was mock me there, try watching Voronin more closely. Obviously when the gap is smaller players can get lucky, but he's an obvious example of a player asked to play WELL above what he's capable of.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:24 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Quite simple really. Rafa has wasted money on players that he doesn't need and also players that aren't upto standard.------------------------Benitez is at best very average in the market. He's not signed complete duffers and he's not really lost alot of money and he's also gained a few pounds,
A tad contradicting there, don't you think? For any business person, to buy something and then sell goods that he finds to be damaged for the price he got it for or for a few quid more than he paid, isn't average. By any standard of any practice, that is brilliant business skills.And name these players he's "wasted" money on? To build a squad, you need to spend, no? And a squad is what we needed. How many world class players had we got before Benitez took over, in every area of the pitch? Right now, I'd count at least four (including Pepe) at the back, at least three in midfield, and certainly one up front. That's 8 world class players that can play in a 1st full strength team on any given day. We are missing two world class wide men, and a world class back up for Torres. That's three short of a truly world class side IMO. Three short from true greatness.

Am not even getting into a Benitez bumming match with you, can't be bothered what so ever.

But for you to sit there and say LFC has 8 world class players is the biggest joke I've ever heard in my life.

Gerrard and Torres are. Mascherano, Alonso and Reina are good players, not world class. For you to even attempt to call any of the other players we have "world class" is beyond a joke.

Zidane was world class... don't sit there and say to me half the Liverpool squad is you complete joker.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:35 pm

We should sell Torres.

I expected him to score 35 goals season, and he only scored 33.

It's just not good enough.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:39 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

If what you was meant to do was mock me there, try watching Voronin more closely. Obviously when the gap is smaller players can get lucky, but he's an obvious example of a player asked to play WELL above what he's capable of.

I'm not trying to mock you stu , what i'm getting at is this. A world class team is never made up of 11 world class players , it's a blend of different players with different ability levels and the key as far as i'm concerned is to get that team to gel ,to play to a world class standard as a whole . Every top team has there hard workers and utility men as well as there world class stars. Real Madrid tried and failed with the 11 world class players bit and it just didn't work . Raf a is trying to get the blend right ,so we work at our best as a team . Now if that means playing kuyt instead of selling him and trying to get ashton ,then so be it. It's all about what rafa see's as best for the team and not always the best player.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:46 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.

Do you have a short memory span or something? I remember Manchester ripping us a new one at Anfield, when he was in midfield. Gerrard rarely turns up against big sides no matter where he plays and thats a fact. Also his partnership with Mascherano was a complete disaster for most of last season, we played some really disgusting football with those two in the middle. There was just no balance at all, the passing was horrendous most of the time and on top of that, we were dominated by crappy teams. Gerrard should stay where he is, because he's by far most effective playing just behind Torres.

What complete and utter rubbish you are chatting. Gerrard's only good games against good sides come from when he plays in central midfield or on the right. Nearly everytime we play United at Anfield he's the best player on the pitch and the same with Chelsea when he's played in position.

To be quite honest, people like you aren't even worth replying to.

I'm sorry but you're the one talking rubbish. Gerrard was good against Chelsea because he played along side Alonso in that game, and I remember that the move for Torres's goal was started by Alonso. Also I don't remember him doing anything great againts the mancs last season, Anderson was causing him a sh*t load of problems.

I don't have a problem with Gerrard in the middle, but I think that his partnership with Mascherano was not working at all. I'd actually like to see Gerrard play in midfield with Barry, if we signed him, but for me Mascherano has to really improve the creative part of his game if he is to play alongside Gerrard in the middle.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:59 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

If what you was meant to do was mock me there, try watching Voronin more closely. Obviously when the gap is smaller players can get lucky, but he's an obvious example of a player asked to play WELL above what he's capable of.

I'm not trying to mock you stu , what i'm getting at is this. A world class team is never made up of 11 world class players , it's a blend of different players with different ability levels and the key as far as i'm concerned is to get that team to gel ,to play to a world class standard as a whole . Every top team has there hard workers and utility men as well as there world class stars. Real Madrid tried and failed with the 11 world class players bit and it just didn't work . Raf a is trying to get the blend right ,so we work at our best as a team . Now if that means playing kuyt instead of selling him and trying to get ashton ,then so be it. It's all about what rafa see's as best for the team and not always the best player.

I agree with that. You can have players like Carragher in a world class team, you can have players like Robbie Keane for example, you don't need 11 world class players, but you need a few and the world class players you have you HAVE to get 100% out of them. You need everyplayer to suit the system perfectly.

Liverpool don't have this, at the minute only Torres, Carragher, Agger and Reina suit the system, maybe Mascherano too.

My points clear, he's missed out on better players who bring the same thing and more. This is why I'm annoyed with signings. I'm not suggesting wanting a target man and signing Owen because he's better...

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:01 pm

ruskiy playmaker wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.
Do you have a short memory span or something? I remember Manchester ripping us a new one at Anfield, when he was in midfield. Gerrard rarely turns up against big sides no matter where he plays and thats a fact. Also his partnership with Mascherano was a complete disaster for most of last season, we played some really disgusting football with those two in the middle. There was just no balance at all, the passing was horrendous most of the time and on top of that, we were dominated by crappy teams. Gerrard should stay where he is, because he's by far most effective playing just behind Torres.
What complete and utter rubbish you are chatting. Gerrard's only good games against good sides come from when he plays in central midfield or on the right. Nearly everytime we play United at Anfield he's the best player on the pitch and the same with Chelsea when he's played in position.To be quite honest, people like you aren't even worth replying to.
I'm sorry but you're the one talking rubbish. Gerrard was good against Chelsea because he played along side Alonso in that game, and I remember that the move for Torres's goal was started by Alonso. Also I don't remember him doing anything great againts the mancs last season, Anderson was causing him a sh*t load of problems. I don't have a problem with Gerrard in the middle, but I think that his partnership with Mascherano was not working at all. I'd actually like to see Gerrard play in midfield with Barry, if we signed him, but for me Mascherano has to really improve the creative part of his game if he is to play alongside Gerrard in the middle.

Gerrard didn't play well last season against the Mancs. First time for everything. As for Alonso starting the move, watch the move again. Gerrard played a one-two with Alonso so get ya facts right.

Try watching the games lad then come back.

by **dawson99** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:36 pm

So what are we saying then? give the newbies a chance or is Rafa plain and simply wrong for not looking at his squad in depth from youth to reserve to get these fringe players he loves to keep aquiring?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:07 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Sabre wrote:I've always agreed Stu when he explain his eskepticism about players becoming what they're not (Sissoko for instance), but I don't agree to the same extent, because there are positions like CB in which I've seen players becoming great due to experience.

There are moments in which it's better to know when to do a foul and how rather than actually having a good tackling ability. Experience is crucial and Carraguer is a good example of that.

Sabre, the point is players don't become something they aren't no matter where they play. Its complete rubbish and Carragher is the prime example. He's always been the same player .

The difference is instead of having Babb, Matteo, Kvarme and McAteer around him the last few years he's had Hyypia, Riise and Finnan. Theres no comparrison in quality between the players he's had playing next to him. He's always lacked over all pace, he's always been average on the ball, he's always been solid in the air, he's always been excellent at reading the game, marking and making last ditch tackles.

When he was younger he always used to mark excellent wingers out of games as a full back, no-one ever really roasted him.

It doesn't matter what position you play, you either have it, or you don't.

Some players don't get used properly in there careers and it never shows how good they actually are.

George Boateng is a good example. From when he first signed for Coventry I always liked the look of him and thought he was useful. After that I never really gave him a second thought. When I done my FA qualifications and went through using stats as part of player analysis I was shocked to find out he is "statistically" the best midfielder in England over the last 10 years based on goals, assists, pass completion, tackles interceptions etc etc etc.

Players can often have attributes and qualities which aren't recognised. Robbie Fowler made a great point about dropping down a level for Cardiff, he said he was shocked at the amount of time he didn't get the right pass, he was shocked at the amount of times people don't make the correct run of movement. It all makes a massive difference, for example, if you have Torres making runs he'd be easier to find than someone like Andy Johnson.

In other words alot of players are only as good as the players giving them the ball. If you've ever played the game yourself with worse players or better players you'd see how it affects everything you do. The players with the ability have the quality to step up and see what the best players are doing.

For example, on a sunday league pitch when you get the ball and see a one two which will put you through on goal, you get the ball, you make the move, you play the pass and expect it back... if it comes your one on one with the keeper, if it doesn't come back to you, what can you do? Thats not your fault...

Thats something ALOT of people fail to see in players like Bullard, Ashton, Woodgate, Kitson, Sidwell and a few others.

Some players are just lucky i guess and get by on that and not on ability . Unlike the likes off the players you've mentioned stu ,who must just be so unlucky to be playing in average teams with average players around them . Some managers just can't spot a good player i guess.

Alot of managers can spot good players but care not to bother looking. Others aren't so good at spotting players and buy players who aren't upto it. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of playing at top sides (not being there best player) but are more than capable who never end up playing there. There are loads of players in the league better than players at the top sides. Obviously am not talkin about them being better than Ronaldo's, Rooney's an Torres, but better than the squad players like Kuyt, Fletcher, Carrick and Lampard.

Boateng being an example of a player who's statistically been one of the best and never played at the highest level.

Kitson, Ashton, Sidwell, Ryan Taylor, Joey Barton, Jimmy Bullard etc etc etc. Theres more out there than I can name off the top of my head.

I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:44 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I think the point about players becoming something they're inherently not is widely accepted, and I don't think Sabre is arguing against that. There is a limit to how far a player can improve. Core ability can only be refined after a certain age - so long as the player has the desire to improve, and they are reasonably intelligent. The stuff about Carra I agree with, he will never be great on the ball and he'll never develop great pace. However, with maturity aspects of his game have improved, for a few of reasons - he's shown desire to improve and he began playing with better players. Experience has also helped. He's a roundly more consistent player - at reading the game, in the timing of the tackle, positioning, marking etc. There's no reason why working hard at your game can't improve it, or make it better. Technical ability isn't likely to improve to any great extent after the age of 15 or so, but other areas such as timing, positioning, tracking players, marking etc. can improve, and more so - I'm not saying massively, but if a player has the desire, discipline and the intelligence they can improve these areas of their game, they can be more consistent in these areas. To improve is to refine, to improve is to make better use of, it doesn't mean to gain ability that never existed. Whether you believe 'x' player ever really had 'x' ability is another debate.

I agree that there are a fair number of players in the league could ply their trade successfully at better clubs, e.g. Bullard, IMO, is good enough to be playing in any team outside the top four. I don't agree though, if you're saying that there are loads of players in the league who could successfully play for a top four club. There are a few, IMO, but not loads. There are a fair number who could be squad players perhaps, but I think you need better quality than the likes of Bullard, Taylor, Sidwell, Barton, Kitson if you want to win the league. Ashton is a good player, I like him, and he could play in a top four team, as long as he has the right players around him. Sidwell, decent, but again - no way is he comparable to Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard IMO. If you're saying that Sidwell/Bullard/Barton are better than the likes of Carrick/Lampard then I firmly disagree. Boateng could have done a job because he's a quality player, but he's getting on a bit now. Woodgate could play in a top four team for sure, the only question about him relates to his fitness.

I agree with pretty much every word of that.

I would also add that while it is true to say there are many players outside of the top four who are at least the equal of some of the squaddies at the big clubs, that doesn't necessarily mean that then by definition they are good enough themselves.

For instance I think Yossi Benayoun is some way short of being good enough to feature as a player in a top four team (note the word team, not squad). Obviously the likes of Voronin are in the same bracket, and Finnan must be approaching that point as well. There are many others, both in our club and at others who are fairly obviously not top four quality. Somebody mentioned Darren Fletcher who is a good example, some of Chelsea's deadwood is in the same bracket, while no doubt Arsenal have their share as well.

Now there are undoubtedly many players throughout the lesser clubs who are better than these people. Is/was Kevin Nolan a better central midfielder than Bolo Zenden (mind you, come to that am/was I?). Is ridgewell better than Palletta, or Steven Taylor better than Senderos, Andy Cole better than Voronin, or perhaps even John Toshack? There are many players, but the fact that you are beeter than Voronin doesn't necessarily mean you are good enough for Liverpool. Shame really cos if it did we'd all get a game.

by **PabloAimar** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Number 9 wrote:He wants to play firstly because hes a footballer and secondly he knows he will not be given enough time on the pitch to play his way into the England squad for 2010!

wat u mean for the euro 2012 qualifiers? ha

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:19 am

I think the main problem when you sign a player is there attitude affects there performance. Take Diouf for instance, at Liverpool he couldnt handle the discipline, the fact that the club and the community are a close knit thing. The attitude of the club is reflected by the supporters. Discipline being one of them. On the whole, his actions disgraced the club and the supporters. Since moving to Bolton he has been a first teamer and the pressure has been off him. Whereas Torres, who is used to pressure, and an attitude which is disciplined has adapted and become a cult hero in his first season. The same could be said for Kuyt. Hasnt been brilliant but for his attitude could easily have been sold. His attitude is that he does his best for Liverpool.

It always has me baffled how people can have such an opinion on players who dont get as many games as others and consider them poor signings. Especially the younger players. If they dont show the signs of Robbie Fowler or Michael Owen as a prolific striker they never will, remember Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Cristiano Ronaldo, there first season wasnt the best but patience has paid off, and they have reaped the rewards. It seems to me that our supporters have little to no patience with regards to rafas signings, and as I have said before, he HAS to get it right first time. Opinion is divided on Babel, unanimous on Mascherano, and not favourable at all to Voronin. Out of those three guess who has played more games? Its easy to pick out the faults of players who are not given a consistent run in the team. Its not so easy to see the glimpses of talent players show in the 1 and half games in a row.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:31 am

PabloAimar wrote:
Number 9 wrote:He wants to play firstly because hes a footballer and secondly he knows he will not be given enough time on the pitch to play his way into the England squad for 2010!

wat u mean for the euro 2012 qualifiers? ha

Yeah but id say he will have his eye on the world cup before that mate,if they can qualify!

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