Liverpool FC Forum

by **7_Kewell** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:29 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:Good post Stu
I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need

I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

EDITED

that's some insult.......... :laugh:

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:31 pm

I disagree with the extent to which Stu makes his points, although I agree with some of his points in a broader context.

For example the points relating to Babel. Whilst I remain hopeful that the flashes of quality he showed last season are a sign of things to come, he only really played well when he was afforded a lot space, and when he was up against tired/poor defenders. He struggled in tight spaces and against teams who pressed reasonably well, he was defensively absentminded and rarely showed the requisite desire to get himself into a game.

I sympathise completely with this:

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

As for the other points, I think the squad is improved slightly on last season because we have Torres and also because Mascherano has consolidated himself as a mainstay in the midfield. I think our rivals have simply improved even more, and that's the main worry.

I don't think Gerrard is a waste as a second striker, he can do a very good job there, it's just not his most effective position and ideally we'd have a specialist second striker to support Torres. Ideally, we'd also have a top quality left winger, right winger and two full backs. Though not ideal, I think we'd be able to manage with just the one top quality winger coming in, and a top/very good (depending on formation we choose) quality striker. I don't agree, though, that a new CB is a necessity, or an area that we should be looking to address for the forthcoming season.

Also, I disagree re. Lucas.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:36 pm

Stu a very good post once again mate , but alittle harsh if you ask me , your not one to pull punches i know , but apart from last season ,rafa has been working on a tight budget (including this summer aswell by the look of it) so you can only buy players with what money you have . He has rebuilt the team ,the way he wants it , under a budget . If he had the money to go and buy 2 world class players a season aswell as overhaul the team to the way he wants it ,aswell as overhaul the reserves . I'm pretty sure he would have done just that.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:38 pm

Again in the main I agree LFC2007, certainly a CB wouldn't be top of my list. I think if we signed 2 top quality players...... a creative second striker and a winger, with or without the acquisition of Barry, we should be well on our way.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:27 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I don't think Gerrard is a waste as a second striker, he can do a very good job there, it's just not his most effective position and ideally we'd have a specialist second striker to support Torres.

I do. I think for us to challenge effectively we need to get 100% out of our best two players on a regular basis and playing Steven Gerrard in the hole will NEVER bring the best out in him.

He is a fantastic tackler, he lacks the vision, touch, movement, flair and subtlety to make it work in that position long term. Yes he can do a job there, he's a marvelous player with a massive range of attributes. He is clearly at his best when given a free role from a MIDFIELD (right or centre) (not attacking) position where he can do midfield stuff, like passing, shooting from distance, winning the ball and influencing play.

Like playing him off the front man is like playing him in the holding role. It stiffles 50% of his game.

I absolutely hate playing great players out of position unless its absolutely nesscerssary. With Gerrard, it certainly isnt.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:34 pm

I agree with almost all of that, the only difference being - I think it is possible for us to challenge if he's deployed in that role - but only if our support play is significantly better and we bring in real quality on the wings.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:35 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Stu a very good post once again mate , but alittle harsh if you ask me , your not one to pull punches i know , but apart from last season ,rafa has been working on a tight budget (including this summer aswell by the look of it) so you can only buy players with what money you have . He has rebuilt the team ,the way he wants it , under a budget . If he had the money to go and buy 2 world class players a season aswell as overhaul the team to the way he wants it ,aswell as overhaul the reserves . I'm pretty sure he would have done just that.

Thats my point though. He's not used what funds he's had to acquire the required quality. He's let better players move for similar transfer fee's without showing an interest.

Some of his signings quite frankly have been complete :censored:

. Leto? What the :censored:

? Wasting money on all kids like him who'll never make the grade instead of just going out and signing some quality. Look at the money spent on Bennayoun and Babel...

About £15,000,000 put together two players wages and that money could have gone on someone ALOT better with the reguired quality. A player like Robben or Silva (for example).

I'm sick of the excuses with it all now, he's had money and in ALOT of cases could have done ALOT better. The only players around the first 11 which I think are value and good enough to be in the squad are Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres. The rest are pretty average at best.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:38 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I agree with almost all of that, the only difference being - I think it is possible for us to challenge if he's deployed in that role - but only if our support play is significantly better and we bring in real quality on the wings.

Gerrard doesn't have the quality to influence a game from there without leaving the attack iscolated.

He always goes missing against the better sides in that position.

He needs to play in midfield where he can do everything he's good at, not half of what he's good at and asked to neglect some of his best attributes.

The way he tracks players like Rooney and Ronaldo and takes the ball off them shows his quality and its something no other player around at the minute, including Mascherano can do better than him.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:43 pm

Fo Dne wrote:I absolutely hate playing great players out of position unless its absolutely nesscerssary. With Gerrard, it certainly isnt.

I agree with this. there are two types of versatile players. Firstly you get the bloke who quite simply isn't that great a player but who can adapt his game to a variety of situations and "do a job". Kuyt "does a job" on the right even though he clearly isn't a top right sided midfielder. Arbeloa can "do a job" at centre hlaf, without ever claiming to be a top player there.

The second type of versatility comes from the player just being so good he could literally play almost anywhere. In the case of Gerrard, the first thing which gives him versatility is the fact that he is a fantastic footballer. Secondly, he is anbelieveable athlete in that he can run very fast, jump very high, has great upper body strength etc etc.

I've seen him play right back on a couple of occasions and I can tell you I think he would make a World Class right back no problem. At right midfield, until the emergence of Ronaldo he was comfortably IMHO the best right midfielder in Europe and would still be in my top three. He is in the top couple as a central midfielder, and is obviously top drawer as a second striker/point midfielder as well. I have a strong feeling that if his career had gone down a diffferent route he would have been a World Class centre half, tall, strong, good in the air with pace to burn who could play as well. Although I've lambasted Rafa for playing him there, nine times out of ten he would offer more than Babel from left midfield as well.

So given all of that, you have to consider not where he can contribute (because he will contribute everywhere save for in goal) but where he will contribute the most. It's many years now since we've seen him play box to box, all action, same number of goals and assists as tackles. Until Houllier decided he was going to make him onto a defensive midfielder ("but he'll be good at it" yes we know) and rafa decided he was going to be a right midfielder ("but he'll be good at it") or a point midfielder ("but...." you get the picture) that was what he was always going to be. We've proven he can play anywhere, but how we can the absolute best out of him remains unresolved. It could just be that box to box alongside Masherano is his spot, but feck knows who we'd replace him with if he got injured/rotated.

As an aside, top players out of position? Thierry Henri. As a striker he often pulls out to the left. Lets play him left wing then that'll work won't it? Nope.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:44 pm

IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 am

redtrader74 wrote:IMO Gerrard is wasted and not good enough to play the 2nd striker role, he doesn't have the vision or quick feet required. he should play in the middle where he IS one of the best players in the world. I'd rather he played wide right than as 2nd striker.

Do you have a short memory span or something? I remember Manchester ripping us a new one at Anfield, when he was in midfield. Gerrard rarely turns up against big sides no matter where he plays and thats a fact. Also his partnership with Mascherano was a complete disaster for most of last season, we played some really disgusting football with those two in the middle. There was just no balance at all, the passing was horrendous most of the time and on top of that, we were dominated by crappy teams. Gerrard should stay where he is, because he's by far most effective playing just behind Torres.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:27 am

s@int wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:Good post Stu
I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need

I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

As for Torres, I have to stick my neck out here and ask did he improve the team?

For me I don't think he did much. He changed the emphasis of the side and is obviously one of the best players in the world but are Liverpool a better side this season than they weer last? I'm not 100% sure.

Now before any is saying I'm sayin Torres isn't great, I'm not. He's legendary, but he didn't come in to the side and transform us from a fourth place team to a first place team. I believe we have had to rebuild the side around him (Which is fine) to suit him and get the best out of him...

Now we need to go out this summer and sign players of a similar quality who will also compliment him and will fit into the current system.

Gerrard is in the wrong position and wasted. We lack a creative player in that position, we lack two full backs (hopefully Dossena will be the answer) we lack a class, dominant centre half and we lack a wide left sided player.

We also need another forward who has the ability to score alot of goals incase Torres (god forbid) picks up an injury.

A couple of seasons ago we were 2 or 3 players short and finished 3rd with an acceptable amount of points, now we're 5 or 6 players short... Lets see what happens.

EDITED

Kinnell whats up? As far as I can see all he's done is given his opinion and backed it up with his reasons, no need to go off the deep end mate.

well i was giving mine mabye i went little over top but i couldnt at time find any other words to show my anger at his views.

Tbh i think babel is going to be a blinding player and for some one to talk so much :censored:

in 100 odd words is beyound me.

One season at the club and he got people ripping him like that it just aint on i just for one thank rafa judgement is far greater then that muppet.

Babel has a bright future at this club and i for one want he to stay more then alonso.

Mark my words you see 100% more from him this season MARK MY WORDS.

by **Owzat** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:56 am

LegBarnes wrote:Tbh i think babel is going to be a blinding player and for some one to talk so much in 100 odd words is beyound me.

One season at the club and he got people ripping him like that it just aint on i just for one thank rafa judgement is far greater then that muppet.

Babel has a bright future at this club and i for one want he to stay more then alonso.

Mark my words you see 100% more from him this season MARK MY WORDS.

I think Babel could have had a better first season, but then he's not the only player you wonder why Rafa is playing him where he is. I hope he does come good, I certainly would only consider selling him if someone offered £20m+

My main worry is on last season's showing I don't believe he'll come good next season, not without a significant improvement in performance and consistency.

by **mistyred** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:04 am

Babel will come good next season, he is a good player so what he didn't have a Galactico season what do some people expect? i must admit i was one supporter who jumped up and down when he basically come on and one the game for us against Arsenal, and scored some absolute beauties against other sides in the prem, not to mention a 35 yard screamer against Chelsea.

But hey sell him because he's no bloody good.

by **ConnO'var** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:12 am

Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:Good post Stu
I would much rather him go and sign two fifteen million pound players these last two summers rather than a few £5millions and a £10million.

The fact is he hasn't improved the first 11, he believes that by having options you can win the league, options aren't what win it, quality is, in abundance. Now more than ever.

Spot on, although he did buy Torres, but I agree its quality improvements to the team we need

I am still not sure about Babel though, he scored a few goals and may still come good yet imo.

Babel won't "come good" though s@int.

He's not good enough mate, simple as that. Compare him to the likes of Robben, Duff (at his best), Joe Cole, Giggs (at his best) Ronaldo, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky etc over the last decade. He's not fit to lace any of their boots.

He's nothing more than an average player with good upper body strength, a quick turn of pace and fairly decent (not great because he never seems to score from them) shot.

His touch is extremely heavy and he seriously lacks game intelligence and appreciation of other players positions. He also offers nothing defensively EVER and often hides from full backs when they have the ball rather than come deep and show.

These aren't things he'll "learn". As for the fools suggesting he become a forward, I'm sorry, but his movement is nowhere near good enough or inventive enough and he lacks the vision to spot the run or the pass.

He may be a USEFUL player from the bench in his career but he'll NEVER be a top player and a main player in a top side.

Good point and strongly agree...... plus he's a bit of a bottler.
Whatever we paid for him..... was too much. Not smart enough to make use of his considerable physical attributes.

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