Liverpool FC Forum

by **desmdlow** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:52 am

i have a feeling kuyt will stay with us for at least another season. Rafa seems to like players with versatility (more option). I can see if torres is injured (hopefully not), Kuyt will be our main striker. (If Crouchie go).

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:18 pm

Rush Job wrote:And Bob its seems you swerved my idea, nevermind we live in hope eh.

How's that, mate? Because I won't admit I was wrong? Well, I don't think I was wrong. I don't think Kuyt has held his value. We certainly wouldn't get what we paid for him if we shopped him right now and I strongly believe we would have got substantially less for him in January then we would right now. That's just how the market works for a player like Kuyt. He's not proven world class who's had an indifferent run of form but who top clubs will still pay top dollar for because they know what he's capable of. He's a decent professional that could benefit some clubs more than others but who's valuation will fluctuate with his form. As for the Alan Smith comparison, I guess we'll have to just wait and see. Personally, I could see him spending much of the rest of his Liverpool career at right midfield and moving to a mid-table club for a few million pounds in a couple of seasons.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:11 pm

You need to make your mind up, you said you would of taken 2~3 for him a few months ago, your now saying 7~8, like i said more or less held his worth, although now your saying he hasnt more or less kept his price?? Its very simple if you were the manager and judged the lad on his poor form and lack of confidence and accepted a bid of 2.5 in Jan you would have been very wrong to do so. But dont worry i wont ask you to admit it since your ego doesnt like it.

by **SundanceKid** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:31 pm

Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:How is a he a natural winger sudance kid?

If someone picks up a snooker cue, throws darts or competes in something for the first time and does well then some would say "he's a natural". Kuyt has been put out on the wing and doesn't look out of his depth and unable to perform the role, to such an extent he was played wide for most of the end of the season. If he then improves, improves and improves some more then he could become a proper top winger, however you hardly expect someone who's played say 20 times in a position to be perfect.

Beckham has no pace btw, don't know why people are making such an issue about that. I didn't realise you needed to run fast to cross accurately, run fast to pass or run fast to shoot. Pace may HELP beat players, it isn't crucial and Kuyt does beat players (maybe not always in the conventional way, but pushing it past the defender and going round him requires some doing if you don't have pace................)

God bless you

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:31 pm

Rush Job wrote:You need to make your mind up, you said you would of taken 2~3 for him a few months ago, your now saying 7~8, like i said more or less held his worth, although now your saying he hasnt more or less kept his price?? Its very simple if you were the manager and judged the lad on his poor form and lack of confidence and accepted a bid of 2.5 in Jan you would have been very wrong to do so. But dont worry i wont ask you to admit it since your ego doesnt like it.

You know what, mate, you've done it. Your bleating on about my fickleness got me wondering just what I voted all those months ago so I went back and had a look HERE.

Poll choices Votes Statistics
1) Release on a free 2 [1.48%]
2) Sell for anything you can get 24 [17.78%]
3) Sell for £5m+ 54 [40.00%]
4) Sell but only if a big (£10m) 12 [8.89%]
offer comes in
5) Give him another season 36 [26.67%]
6) Keep playing him until he scores 7 [5.1%]

Now, there's no way to confirm exactly how I voted back in February but, egotist that I am (

), I remember quite distinctly rejecting options 1 and 2 out of hand (too desperate) and going for option 3. I gave no serious consideration to option 4, BTW, because--then as now--I thought the idea of getting 10 million+ for a hard-working but otherwise limited player was/is laughable. I suppose I could have gone with option 5, as I'm certainly not opposed to keeping him on as a squad player. But, the reality of the situation at the time was that Option 3 and Option 5 were pretty much a vote for the same thing, as no team was going to come in for him with a 5 million+ bid on the back of the 'performances' he had been putting in for the team in the preceding few months.

If we're taking stock of things at this moment, however, I would argue that these questions are no longer the same. There are probably a few teams out there now that would be happy to take a punt on Kuyt for a transfer fee upwards of 5 million quid (Option 3). And, I would wager that there are quite a few Liverpool supporters--including several on here--that would be happy to keep Kuyt for another season (Option 5) on the basis of his performances for club and country these past few months. I'd think that anyone choosing Option 4 today would still be firmly in the minority but, who knows, some people might succumb to the spirit of silly season and think we could get double figures for Kuyt now.

As for fickle-old me, I'm still waffling between Option 5 and Option 3. If Kuyt stays and continues to do a job for us, I'll be delighted. If someone were to offer us in the vicinity of 7 million pounds for the lad, though, I'd sell him without hesitation because that's about as much as I think he's worth at the moment.

So, there you go: I was wrong--wrong, that is, to suggest that I ever advocated selling Kuyt for 2-3 million pounds. I didn't then and I don't now. I'd still say, though, that his value has probably fluctuated fairly substantially since he's joined us. At the very least, it's not held steady at the price we paid for him and we will be hard pressed to get even close to our money back on him if and when we decide to sell, IMO.

by **Toffeehater** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:53 pm

Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:How is a he a natural winger sudance kid?

If someone picks up a snooker cue, throws darts or competes in something for the first time and does well then some would say "he's a natural". Kuyt has been put out on the wing and doesn't look out of his depth and unable to perform the role, to such an extent he was played wide for most of the end of the season. If he then improves, improves and improves some more then he could become a proper top winger, however you hardly expect someone who's played say 20 times in a position to be perfect.

Beckham has no pace btw, don't know why people are making such an issue about that. I didn't realise you needed to run fast to cross accurately, run fast to pass or run fast to shoot. Pace may HELP beat players, it isn't crucial and Kuyt does beat players (maybe not always in the conventional way, but pushing it past the defender and going round him requires some doing if you don't have pace................)

I have to agree with you but natural wingers have flair and that little bit of skills . No disrespect to kuyt , he's been brillaint there but he does not have the skills but he has gotten the job done that was asked of him , but its hard to say he's a a natural winger just after 20 or so games

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:45 pm

'The Rock':

Marco Van Basten has finally seen the light and has dropped kuyt. When is rafa gonna see this ?

by **Toffeehater** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:03 pm

, wonder where is the rock .

Van basten picked him again , so does that mean that rafa was right all the while and van basten made a mistake

by **Rush Job** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:16 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Rush Job wrote:You need to make your mind up, you said you would of taken 2~3 for him a few months ago, your now saying 7~8, like i said more or less held his worth, although now your saying he hasnt more or less kept his price?? Its very simple if you were the manager and judged the lad on his poor form and lack of confidence and accepted a bid of 2.5 in Jan you would have been very wrong to do so. But dont worry i wont ask you to admit it since your ego doesnt like it.

You know what, mate, you've done it. Your bleating on about my fickleness got me wondering just what I voted all those months ago so I went back and had a look HERE.

Poll choices Votes Statistics
1) Release on a free 2 [1.48%]
2) Sell for anything you can get 24 [17.78%]
3) Sell for £5m+ 54 [40.00%]
4) Sell but only if a big (£10m) 12 [8.89%]
offer comes in
5) Give him another season 36 [26.67%]
6) Keep playing him until he scores 7 [5.1%]

Now, there's no way to confirm exactly how I voted back in February but, egotist that I am ( ), I remember quite distinctly rejecting options 1 and 2 out of hand (too desperate) and going for option 3. I gave no serious consideration to option 4, BTW, because--then as now--I thought the idea of getting 10 million+ for a hard-working but otherwise limited player was/is laughable. I suppose I could have gone with option 5, as I'm certainly not opposed to keeping him on as a squad player. But, the reality of the situation at the time was that Option 3 and Option 5 were pretty much a vote for the same thing, as no team was going to come in for him with a 5 million+ bid on the back of the 'performances' he had been putting in for the team in the preceding few months.

If we're taking stock of things at this moment, however, I would argue that these questions are no longer the same. There are probably a few teams out there now that would be happy to take a punt on Kuyt for a transfer fee upwards of 5 million quid (Option 3). And, I would wager that there are quite a few Liverpool supporters--including several on here--that would be happy to keep Kuyt for another season (Option 5) on the basis of his performances for club and country these past few months. I'd think that anyone choosing Option 4 today would still be firmly in the minority but, who knows, some people might succumb to the spirit of silly season and think we could get double figures for Kuyt now.

As for fickle-old me, I'm still waffling between Option 5 and Option 3. If Kuyt stays and continues to do a job for us, I'll be delighted. If someone were to offer us in the vicinity of 7 million pounds for the lad, though, I'd sell him without hesitation because that's about as much as I think he's worth at the moment.

So, there you go: I was wrong--wrong, that is, to suggest that I ever advocated selling Kuyt for 2-3 million pounds. I didn't then and I don't now. I'd still say, though, that his value has probably fluctuated fairly substantially since he's joined us. At the very least, it's not held steady at the price we paid for him and we will be hard pressed to get even close to our money back on him if and when we decide to sell, IMO.

" your bleating on about my fickleness " ? ? . Once again if you were to have sold him for 2/3m you would have been wrong to as now we would/should be looking for upwards of 7 whitch means he has more or less got the same worth, i dont get your problem with that. Just because he hasnt the pace for the PL doesnt make him a bad player, he was one of our best players in the CL and scored very important goals. Do you thing A smith could score 70 in a 100 in the dutch league? one of them could pay close to 10.

by **bigmick** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:27 am

Rushie you obviously really like Kuyt which is fair enough. You've been ultra loyal to him in the face of almost universal criticism of the fella which once again is more power to your elbow and that. I can't help thinking though that your kind of nit picking a bit in criticising Bob over his valuation of Kuyt, it's not that far off your own. You both agree he's not really up to playing up front for Liverpool, (be it through a lack of pace, awareness, touch, goal threat or anything else). You also both agree he's doing a good job on the right. he thinks Kuyt's value has dropped since we bought him, as we paid 9 mill or so and he's currently woth between 5-7 mill. You think he's worth over 7 mill and therefore his value is more or less the same as it was when we bought him. It hardly seems to me that you have any basis for disagreeing with each other.

I on the other hand valued Kuyt at 3 million earlier in the season, and am fully prepared to admit I was wrong. I would now take 5 mill for him if it was offered.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:39 am

Rush Job wrote:" your bleating on about my fickleness " ? ? . Once again if you were to have sold him for 2/3m you would have been wrong to as now we would/should be looking for upwards of 7 whitch means he has more or less got the same worth, i dont get your problem with that. Just because he hasnt the pace for the PL doesnt make him a bad player, he was one of our best players in the CL and scored very important goals. Do you thing A smith could score 70 in a 100 in the dutch league? one of them could pay close to 10.

A couple of points and then I'll let this one go, because I think we're going in circles mate.

1) On the point about Kuyt holding his valuation or not, I believe that his valuation would have taken a substantial dip over the first half of the last season and would just recently have crept back up to somewhere near what we paid for him. For instance, had Rafa had the notion to sell him in January, I don't think there would have been any offers over 5 million from anywhere in the football--such was his poor form. His revival as a RM in the past few months for us and his solid work at the Euros have brought his value up--IMO--to somewhere around 7 million (taking into account price inflation off the back of major tournaments). But, that still doesn't mean--again IMO--that he's held his value over his time with us, as you seem to be arguing.

2) I would be very surprised if any club--including the Dutch clubs--would pay anything near 10 million pounds for Kuyt. That's even allowing for his great record in the Eredivisie and his good performances for the national side. I could be proven wrong, of course, but that's my feeling.

3) All of this is just a spot of back-and-forth for the sake of argument, anyway, because I don't think we're looking to sell Kuyt this summer nor do I think that there's a club out there knocking on our door for him in a serious way either. And, you know what, that's fine. I like the lad, am glad to see him back to near his best and hope that he can carry that form over to Liverpool again in the new season--either as a squad player or as a starter, if we don't find a better RM.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:41 am

I don't think we would be able to sell him to a Dutch club Rushie, for one thing they wouldn't be able to afford his wages now, and I really doubt they would be able to afford his transfer fee. I think the Dutch record fee is only about 9million euros, and they tend to buy young players that they can sell on rather than older players who are only going to lose value.

Maybe we could sell him to Newcastle, they are always willing to pay top dollar?

Personally I think he has done enough to earn a place in the squad for this season. I would obviously like someone better but with money as tight as it is, I doubt we will be able to get a new Rmidfielder, Lmidfielder, striker and Barry.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:54 am

bigmick wrote:Rushie you obviously really like Kuyt which is fair enough. You've been ultra loyal to him in the face of almost universal criticism of the fella which once again is more power to your elbow and that. I can't help thinking though that your kind of nit picking a bit in criticising Bob over his valuation of Kuyt, it's not that far off your own. You both agree he's not really up to playing up front for Liverpool, (be it through a lack of pace, awareness, touch, goal threat or anything else). You also both agree he's doing a good job on the right. he thinks Kuyt's value has dropped since we bought him, as we paid 9 mill or so and he's currently woth between 5-7 mill. You think he's worth over 7 mill and therefore his value is more or less the same as it was when we bought him. It hardly seems to me that you have any basis for disagreeing with each other.

I on the other hand valued Kuyt at 3 million earlier in the season, and am fully prepared to admit I was wrong. I would now take 5 mill for him if it was offered.

Its not Deal or no Deal Mick!!

I put your lack of respect for Kuyt down to 3 things.
1)Working long hours
2)Listening to Saint
3)Listening to BadBob

He has been great for LFC since the 4-2-3-1.As important in the last half of last season as any player we have!
I agree with rafa we need players like this.Some of you think that world class(whatever that is) players are needed all over the pitch!That is wrong!
Football is a complex game70%skill and 30%head in my opinion!
Players that believe and have desire will take teams to places when the skill falls short.There is NO team in the world that are unbeatable in terms of skill.When a team can find a balance of skill and belief they are hard to beat...Work hard,fight hard,treat every game as your last,give 100% every time you train as if its for real!
Thats why LFC needs a player or players like Dirk Kuyt and so does Raffa!
As long as Rafa is here so will be KUYT!!
Im happy with that!! :buttrock

by **Rush Job** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:44 am

bigmick wrote:Rushie you obviously really like Kuyt which is fair enough. You've been ultra loyal to him in the face of almost universal criticism of the fella which once again is more power to your elbow and that. I can't help thinking though that your kind of nit picking a bit in criticising Bob over his valuation of Kuyt, it's not that far off your own. You both agree he's not really up to playing up front for Liverpool, (be it through a lack of pace, awareness, touch, goal threat or anything else). You also both agree he's doing a good job on the right. he thinks Kuyt's value has dropped since we bought him, as we paid 9 mill or so and he's currently woth between 5-7 mill. You think he's worth over 7 mill and therefore his value is more or less the same as it was when we bought him. It hardly seems to me that you have any basis for disagreeing with each other.

I on the other hand valued Kuyt at 3 million earlier in the season, and am fully prepared to admit I was wrong. I would now take 5 mill for him if it was offered.

When did i say i really liked him? when have i ever even said i think he a great player? And how the fck is it me " nit picking " by simply stating had he been sold for 2/3m a few months ago it would have been the wrong thing to do. This whole thing started with a bit of light hearted banter ffs and the incrowd are on me like a cheap suit, dont worry lesson learned.

by **Sabre** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:03 am

Rush job, you're a good poster mate, but the discussion you lot are having is a bit strange and I'll try to explain why with my own position.

I'm innocent of giving stick to Kuyt, stick that has been cruel at some point. There are happy clappy comments here and there giving value to his job, I guess you could find it.

**But** despite I didn't write any criticism on him because I felt badly for the lad and I appreciate his job, I did think that playing him on the right was a mistake from Rafa at the beginning. I remember shutting up about it because there was enough stick to the player, but I remember thinking it. I had to admit myself in the last weeks that decission was good, so here you go, yet another fan changing his mind. But what's wrong with that? not much, IMHO the only wrong we do is when we get too far in the stick and we're too harsh on our lads, we must not forget they're reds, especially when they give it all.

Why I think your discussion is a bit pointless? because you're not discussing the contribution to the team that back then was discussed, or the stick given to the player, but the value of the player. We're not market experts, and we are not fortune tellers. Van Basten had doubts about Kuyt and even at some point told him that he might not count on him. And the Euro can change the value of the player, and the outcome of the euro aswell. So discussing about the value of the player depend on so many factors not dependin on us (need to sell, need to buy, what happens eventually in the euro, or a decission of another manager) that discussing harshly about it is pointless!

Liverpool FC Forum

Kuyt - Is there any fee big enough?

Who is online