Liverpool FC Forum

by **figgis** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:31 pm

Todays news suggests the eu will fight the proposal and have told fifa it is illegal and they will do whatever it takes to stop it from going thru. personaly the rule isnt that bad a bit over the top but in principle not a bad idea.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed May 28, 2008 3:49 pm

good idea but too sudden should it be 6-5

by **tommycockles** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:13 pm

FIFA's plans to introduce nationality quotas have been condemned as illegal by the European Commission.

FIFA is considering a so-called "six-lus-five" rule ensuring that at least six players in a squad are from the club's own country.

The plan is due to be put to a FIFA congress in Sydney on Friday.

But the Commission stepped in to warn that such a move would amount to discrimination outlawed by EU rules.

"We are giving red card to the six-plus-five rule," announced Vladimir Spidla, Europe's Commissioner for Equal Opportunities.

FIFA's controversial proposal is different from a "homegrown players" rule proposed by UEFA, the sport's European governing body. UEFA defines "homegrown players" as team members who, regardless of age or nationality, have been trained by their club or by another club in the National Association for at least three years between the age of 15 and 21.

The Commission has approved the UEFA arrangement because, says Brussels, it contains no player conditions based on nationality.

"Compared with the intentions announced by FIFA to impose the so-called six-plus-five rule which is directly discriminatory and therefore incompatible with the EU law, the "homegrown players" rule proposed buy UEFA seems to me to be proportionate and to comply with the principle of free movement of workers".

Wednesday's Commission announcement follows an independent study on the "homegrown player" rule under which clubs taking part in the Champions League and the UEFA Cup would have to have a minimum number of "homegrown players" in their squads.

A Commission statement said the potential risk of the rule leading to indirect discrimination on the basis of nationality could not be discounted. But the underlying objectives of the UEFA scheme - to promote training for young football players - were legitimate. EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, Jan Figel, said: "Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary. The UEFA rule thus avoid the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

by **LegBarnes** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:16 pm

yep i am for it and makes me sad to think so many of you dont want it i am england fan as much as a liverpool fan and tbh we need more a system to get better english players and this rule would help that alot.

I think the influx of over seas players have made the prem top league in world but what do we see for that ?

Higher ticket prices - trying to force the working class out of the game this cant be good can it ?

Less english youths making first teams this speaks for it self ?

Over seas owners ? well you know this story do you think if our league was a little more understated would we have to put up with these muppets ?

tbh i miss the real grass roots football this country used to make it wasnt always flash it wasnt all ways watched by the world but at end of day who gives a fu*k it was ours and i liked it that way.

edited : Added

Also so much money is int he game atm and where does it go ?

I know alot fo you dont care and why should you but the fact the av ticket price has gone up 8% in last season is a total joke and why is this ?

i tell you why cos of all the high end wages we pay for these so called top players and what is to say they any better then our home grown lads ? yeah they seem to be but then agian they all come from countrys that have home grown tallent now if we did the same dont you think we might just have a good home grown tallent ?

we might see a few years of the standard dropping but in 3-5 years i dont think it would be any less fun to watch i meen i like to watch top players but i rather watch a good english lad then a world class german or french player.

Ok rant over :wwww

by **PhiLFC** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:25 pm

Deja vu... basically the same thing happened when English clubs started dominating Europe last time. Blatter, Fifa and Platini should fuck off - how's it going to improve competition in Scotland?

These fuckers seem to forget that they live and work in europe - I wonder how many foreigners work at the offices of fifa and uefa?

The top 3 or 4 teams in any of the footballing nations have virtually been the same top 3 or 4 for 30 or 40 years - every now and again you'll get a Chelsea or a Blackburn, Forest or Villa or even the bitters coming through but the fact remains that Liverpool, Arsenal and Utd have been at the top for donkey's years. The same can probably be said of any of the other European footballing nations.

Here's a thought - are Torres, Reina and Alonso treated as foreigners when we play Madrid, Barca or Valencia at their home grounds? Or do Gerrard and Carra then become the foreigners?

by **LegBarnes** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:28 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I'm against it.

This 6 plus 5 thing will obviously make the prem a worse league, and it wont make the England team any better. We last won the WC in 66. Since then we havent won f.a and the influx of foreign players didnt really happen until the early to mid 90's. So between 66 and 90 where do you lay the blame of us failing in WC's?

Not the foreigners they werent around then, English players are expensive and overated.

UEFA dont like the fact the EEnglish league is the richest in the world and can buy all he talent and make a good advert for football, Platinini loves that doesnt he ¬

dude the prem is the worst league in world it has sold its soul and we the fans are paying for every ones else entertainment i am next season not paying for sky sports first time in 7 years.

i catch highlights and so on but i aint paying for this over paid players any more i love football the pure football i grew up on but the football of today has turned into a fest of greed and tbh i dont want as much to do with it. :down:

by **Sabre** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:59 pm

Do Spain and France still limit the number of foreign players on each team? I know this is only non-EU players, but surely the principle is the same??

We do limit, but that limitation doesn't apply to non-EU players.

As for those who think Continentals are afraid of English domination, I think that's not right.

I'm a Liverpool fan, but I'm Spanish. I like the Spanish league being the best. But I don't have troubles to admit that right now the English one is the best.

It's a Sport. In a Sport sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. And at least me, I know to lose with dignity. Same applies for many continentals. I don't think Platini likes more Spanish football dominating than English dominating, he's French.

FWIW, I think that most English and Spanish fans will agree to be against this rule.

Maybe it's the pressure of countries like Bulgaria, Slovenia, and lots of countries who don't want their fifteen year old players being away of their countries, as they fear nationalisations and all that.

But, do not think mates we hate English. We know to admit when you're doing well.

by **DonnieDarko** » Wed May 28, 2008 7:54 pm

LegBarnes-

Fact is that clubs buying foreign players has nothing to do with the league becoming a greedfest. Its just the culture. Whether or not clubs have to have 6 native players wouldn't change the gouging of fans by clubs and the exploitation of smaller clubs by bigger ones.

by **LFC2007** » Wed May 28, 2008 8:10 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Number 9 wrote:No way I want this to happen!
Its legal for anyone from anywhere in the EU to come here and start work get a house and live as an honourary Brit!
Its also legal for them to come and not work and sponge off the state!

So why should footballers with a genuine talent in a profession that generates millions for the state every year be any different??
It will never happen its a form of discrimination and contradicts the whole idea of the EU and freedom to go where you want within the union!
There will be all sorts of human rights lawsuits taken against such a rule,it would be a mess!

But no-one's saying that cant work in this country! - anyone can still come across, and this isn't an infringement on that freedom. They want to perform a particular job for a particular company (eg football for blackburn rovers) - no-ones stopping them doing that. For this example blackburn would still be able to play 5 'foreign' players in every single game, so if they are good enough, they will play every game. It’s the clubs decision whether to sign a player of not. And if they do sign him, its up to them whether they play him or not.

Human rights lawsuits wouldn't stand up in court. Its similar to the selection process (in terms of human rights laws) of playing international football. If the English FA wanted Torres to be playing for england, and if Torres wanted to play for England, neither could file a lawsuit just because he's not allowed to do so… He was born in Spain, but he earns a living in Liverpool and yet he's not allowed to play for england because of where he's born. The situation (in law) would be no different. Because there is nothing stopping clubs from SIGNING a foreign player, or playing a foreign player, there is no lawsuit to be had

People have a right to work in a job where they want doing what they want in the Union!
To say to a player you cannot go to LFC when he has a desire to go there,because they have the maximum number of foreigners is a form of discrimination.
ie The player is being judged unfit to work where he desires because of his nationality.

If i go to Bordeaux in France and want to work somewhere and they said to me "Sorry you cant work here because you are not from France"I could sue them regardless if there was a job that suited me in Lyon that would employ me!

Looked at from another way,if for example Marks and Spencer said from now on 60% of our workers must be British Nationals in our UK branches it would be wrong,people would be being denied working where they wanted because of nationality!
Just because football is a sport it does not have a right to dictate laws that are illegal in the rest of society!

But its not though mate.

I see your points, but the 6+5 rule is not saying that at all. The 6+5 rule does not say you can't come and work in this country if the are not born here. The rule does not stop clubs from signing foreign players, from paying the wage of foreign players or from playing foreign players. That is the point!!

Using your example: the rules doesn't say "Sorry you cant work here because you are not from France" - teams can still sign, pay wages of and field foreign players - So there is no infringment of any laws.

Surely you accept that players are signed with the intention of being selected to play? Even if they're only signed on the basis that they'll play a minor or contingency role.

Players are signed with a view to being played at some point, even if ultimately they may not get a game, they are signed on that basis - to play. There is no escaping the fact that the contract of employment is based on the intention of playing - hence performance related pay clauses which can only be realised by playing i.e. starting matches.

The law states that EU citizens have the right to take up an activity "under the same conditions as apply to its own nationals". By definition, under the proposal, EU players not from the host nation would be competing for 5 places in a starting line up. Therefore, by taking up the activity - the job, the contract of employment, the 'playing' contract, they have a decreased opportunity of playing. The opportunity to play is statistically unequal, and as such doesn't conform with EU law.

Again thinking about whether it is actually legal to do this or not

Do Spain and France still limit the number of foreign players on each team? I know this is only non-EU players, but surely the principle is the same??

EU law makes provisions for EU citizens only, third country nationals are subject to national legislation.

by **figgis** » Wed May 28, 2008 9:35 pm

all teams want the best players at any price be them brittish or foreign.under the present system i expect gerrard and carragher would not break through the youth system. the fact that they did is a huge bonus. and i doubt lfc would have been able to afford them if they had to buy them at todays price. i cant think of any outstanding brittish tallent to break thru since owen gerrard and carragher. the influx of youngsters into the youth teams is more damaging to the system than bringing in the finished product like torres and kuyt. if they bring in this rule it should be across the board right down to youth level.

by **Greavesie** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:09 pm

As a Liverpool fan I am against it. I can't see the rule being implemented in practice whatsoever. Unless it could be implemented in the way Redman suggested such as introducing it in stages.

But even then I can't help but feel that such a rule would disrupt the freedom of the league we have here in England when it comes to transfers and entertainment.

It would also disrupt Rafa's rotation

Could the rule not be applied to youth teams and reserves but still give first teams freedom to buy who they want?

by **RUSHIE#9** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:31 pm

I've voted against it based on the very short sighted approach that Blatter is taking (as usual).
The basic principle of this idea is admirable and most likely would help to level the playing field to a certain extent. It's only when you think beyond the basic principle though that you realise that the big boys will only get bigger and then further away from the small clubs **cough**everton**cough** :lookaround

.

IMO the only workable way that this idea could work would be to cap fee's on home grown players and restrict the bigger from poaching all of the best talent from the smaller clubs. That isn't going to work though as not only would the clubs/associations not go for it but it would undoubtedly contravene EU laws.

The UEFA approach would seem to be a more workable solution to this supposed situation.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:39 pm

Greavesy says

It would also disrupt Rafa's rotation

But would give lots of new digs for the journos to use, mate.

I can already see it: Rafa rotates more the english players, with full fledged Owzat stats.

by **Reg** » Thu May 29, 2008 12:06 am

Toffeehater wrote:Uefa president and Fifa president hate English teams and the English league , cause deep down they know its the best league in the world

For sure it has been designed to weaken the surging Premier league however as others have noted, EU law allows thousands of Poles to work in the UK and other nationalities to work in neighbouring countries so to change the law for the sake of a combined few hundred players makes UEFA look silly for even making the suggestion.

by **Owzat** » Thu May 29, 2008 7:21 am

Not going to vote. I agree with the principle that the ENGLISH Premiership should contain more/mostly English players, but in reality it is way too late to go reversing that. I might agree with a phased move to fixed quotas, but the harsh truth is the big clubs would go out and buy all the best English players from the others. How different will that be from the past? It isn't like Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd suddenly became the biggest clubs in England, they've been the biggest clubs for a long time before this 'foreigner invasion'

And I think any links with England's underperformance are tenuous at best. We put out a very good team, some of the best players in the Premiership. What they are is either lazy or complacent or maybe just overrated. I think it's feeble the Premiership is being blamed for the England performances. Tell me the team/squad below is only good enough to get to the QFs and sometimes fail to qualify...

Carson (Liverpool)
Neville (Man Utd)
Bridge (Chelsea)
Ferdinand (Man Utd)
Terry (Chelsea)
Bentley (Blackburn)
J.Cole (Chelsea)
Barry (A Villa)
Gerrard (Liverpool)
Rooney (Man Utd)
Owen (Newcastle)

Subs : Foster (Man Utd), Carragher (Liverpool, retired), A.Cole (Chelsea), Brown (Man Utd), Hargreaves (Man Utd), Carrick (Man Utd), Lampard (Chelsea), Downing (Middlesboro), Wright-Phillips (Chelsea), Walcott (Arsenal), Crouch (Liverpool), Defoe (Portsmouth)

Apart from Arsenal the big four contribute a lot of England players. If the England players weren't good enough they wouldn't be able to hold down a regular place in their club side. So the truth is England players CAN MIX IT with some of the best in the world at club level. Conclusion? The players for some reason can't take club form to the international stage. Reason? Your guess is as good as mine, but I'm guessing it isn't anything to do with foreigners (except the XI facing England) or you'd see less England players in the top clubs. You can argue it is killing the Welsh and maybe the Scots as their heydays were over a decade ago and maybe even the Irish. But since when is it our responsibility to further their causes?

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