Liverpool FC Forum

by **Seano Kop** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:45 pm

What's with the overuse of emoticons? They are starting to lose their meaning.. :laugh:

by **Thingy** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:58 pm

So what do people think is a acceptable time to win the league in? How many years should a manager be given before he gets the boot?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:01 pm

Thingy wrote:So what do people think is a acceptable time to win the league in? How many years should a manager be given before he gets the boot?

You can't just quantify it like that: "win it in 5 years or you're out." It depends how we're going and what other alternatives exist. At the end of the day, as this thread proves, progress is a pretty subjective concept.

by **Thingy** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:03 pm

Ill expand on that Bob, how long do you think Rafa should be our manager for before he gets the boot, if he hasnt brought us the league?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:10 pm

Thingy wrote:Ill expand on that Bob, how long do you think Rafa should be our manager for before he gets the boot, if he hasnt brought us the league?

Hard for me to answer that in any kind of definitive way, mate. However, as I've said above, if we could be completely free of the off-field distractions next season and if the owners (whoever they may be) get a decent transfer kitty in Rafa's hands and, yet, he still fails to get us to at least challenge for the title, then I'd be starting to ask serious questions. If, however, we mount a proper challenge without actually taking the title, I'd probably be still supportive of Benitez. I know that many have felt that Rafa's had enough time but, for me, this season has been a bit of a wash given what all's gone on behind the scenes. He deserves at least another season to have a go, IMO.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:33 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Arsenal patience Wenger did the double in his first full season

So apart from Arsenal who did the double in his first full season - Chelsea who also won the league in his first season we are back to Fergie.

errrrr... who has won more league titles than wenger and mourinho combined???

stop making me laugh already... what a joke... your post is a joke... "not many examples of patience bringing success" by ignoring the most successful manager in one and a half decade... ... you should rename your nick to "joker"...

I was using your list you idiot. :laugh:

Manchester United - patience in the beginning + money later on
Arsenal - patience
Chelsea - money

those are the clubs that shared premier league titles... blackburn seems to be somewhat an exception but they still paid good money for shearer and sutton...

You should change your nickname to "moron"

I ignored the most successful manager - how? By saying "we are back to Fergie". Don't talk such utter drivel, I know you are thick but you are starting to abuse it now.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:34 pm

Its seems pretty clear to me that you are a moron who can't seem to understand plain English maybe you were dropped as a child?

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:37 pm

LFC2007 wrote:It's of absolute relevance IMO, given the similarities, and when you consider he's one of the most successful managers of all time. Because of this he's the standout example that shows patience can breed success, massive success. That's not to say that it will in our situation, but it shows it can and is a real possibility, accepting you are in the first category and not the second;

If you have faith in Rafa, view him as a top manager, accept the clear similarities between the two situations and aren't an avid Doom and Gloom merchant, it's a valid and relevant point.

If you think Rafa's average, or completely hopeless, FFS it's quite obvious that you're going to dismiss the comparison.

The Manc's hadn't won much prior to Ferguson's arrival in '86, they also hadn't won the league for almost 20 years. Their league positions in the immediate preceding couple of seasons were very similar to ours in 02/03 -03/04. In terms of starting positions - not a great deal of difference in relative terms. Both received a fair degree of backing in the transfer market - but Ferguson perhaps even more so, relatively speaking.

Many wanted him sacked as many thought they were going backwards, and there was growing doubt as to whether he would be able to turn them into genuine title challengers.

They stuck with him and won the league, and perhaps he got a bit lucky in that his success co-incided with the beginning of our decline, but that isn't to say that Rafa should also require the club of the day to suddenly decline in order to achieve success in the league.

No, I and others, rate him higher than that.

Nothing complicated.....

Its irrelevant LFC2007]

by **Kukilon** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:45 pm

As long as Rafa is making steps in the right direction with everything I'm on his side. This doesn't mean that he has to at least finish second just that I want to see progress. He has got top notch competion with Chelsea and United so it ain't easy.

by **kunilson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:07 pm

Well..... id just like to say that if Rafa does not mount a title challenge next year, id be starting to ask some questions on whether he is capable of it. Not to say that id want him out but its hard to say really without obviously knowing whats going to happen. But looking back at this season i was hoping for a similar thing but with the problems upstairs and seeing it affect the team like it obviously did i can understand how it didn't happen.
I would like to mention that i don't think the problems with the owners were the sole reason for our downfall this season....much of the team balance, mentality of the team etc came into it and that is down to rafa to sort out.

still have faith though....he seems to be slowly forming the squad from the youth up how he wants.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 pm

Saint, Maguskwt...pack it in if you would (or move it to the Arguments thread

). Cheers.

by **bigmick** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:15 pm

The key for me is in the title of the thread. "Progression" is the word, and it's the main reason why I've jumped off the "lets change the manager" train. Champions League success or relative failure was never going to be hugely relavent for me, I made it clear earlier in the season that I thought Rafa should leave REGARDLESS of any Champions League success. I hope those who are singing his praises now don't subsequently turn on him should we perish in the semi finals, I won't because as I say to me it's irrelevent to the question in hand.

My prediction is that if Rafa stays another ten years or leaves tomorrow, we will still qualify for the Champions League and make it out of the group stages regardless of who takes over. Then we will need to win three home and away matches and a final to add to our big ears tally. To me, though it's lovely and a fantastic experience for the fans, it doesn't form my opinion on whether Rafa should stay or go, or indeed the identity of any new manager. When the Champions League was dreamt up over a decade ago, it was formulated just like the Premier League, to benefit the bigger and wealthier clubs. Over time that has come to fruition, and it also stands to reason that those from the richest and most widely watched league in the World (the Premiership) are at a significant advantage to most of the other teams. Get used to Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United etc being in the quarters, the semi's and winning it because over the next few years unless something happens to disturb the status quo it will continue to happen.

Which brings us back to Rafa and "progression". Now I don't FWIW think any comparisons with Ferguson are relevent, but I can understand people going that way. Clearly if people at Old Trafford who were anti-Ferguson had won the argument, they would have got rid of him and he wouldn't be their manager today. It's also probably as near to a certainty as you can get that they wouldn't have been as successful. Given their finances I should think they would have had some success at least, but almost certainly not as much as they've had. He is, annoying as it is to admit it, a top manager.

Anyway sorry I digress, Rafa. Now I'll tell you this, all for free. You could give any manager seven years, seventy years if you want and you will never ever win the Premier League by employing Rafa style (check the signatur it explains it there), changing your team in home games against relegation candidates to counter the fact that they'll defend deep, not going all out for the win in every game you play in against non top four teams, prioritising the Champions League. THAT is why I have said the manager ought to go, nothing to do with time. Continue to try and build two teams rather than one to give yourself more "options" and "possibilties", change the team 75 times in the first fifteen matches, rest your star players after six games of the season etc etc and you will never ever win it, nothing to do with time.

But now, perhaps, just maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not someone sparking up a Woodbine. Belatedly, after wasting four years trying to prove a theory which was never going to work, we seem to be settling into a pattern of selection. Those not in the team aren't getting a "turn" every fortnight or so, those in the team are getting a chance to build confidence. we aren't playing great, far from it, but we are building, growing towards something. That's what progression is all about, that's what next season should be all about. Building, constructing our team so we know categorically by the end of the season where we are. We'll know by then who is with us and who needs to go. We'll know how we're going to play.

The journey, after four years of waiting, has finally begun. If at last we are about to actually give ourselves an opportunity then we can at least guage how close we actually are. My suspicion is we are actually closer, without even signing anyone, than many believe. Those who doubt that i wouold ask this question. Do you think that the team we are playing as of now, with Torres up top every game, Masherano with Alonso, Kuyt and Babel wide midfielders, the captain in behind Torres etc (and I know he has fiddled around with full backs to keep you pro's happy

), does anybody think in all honesty that if we had played with this system, and broadly the same team in every single game that we would now be fourteen points behind the leaders?

No, I don't either. We can argue all day about how close we would actually be, but my guess is we'd be absolutely no more that half that figure behind, and perhaps a point or two closer. If we're actually going to give it a proiper shot next season, then we'll definately get progress don't worry about that. Just so long as we do, the manager deserves plenty of time yet to make things happen.

by **dawson99** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:19 pm

the fatc as i see it is that altho we are obviously improving as a team we dont seem to have am anager who has the premiership title as his priority. Rafa is the man for us, dont get me wrong, but he needs to get his priorities right before we really see the progresion

by **taff** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:16 am

is it the weed Ive had or has Bigmick taken over 1000 words to say he wants Rafa in charge next season

For those who say he has seen the light well I disagree as he will rotate next season but as the other mangers in the top four do it then he will be in good company.

The progress is the gradual build up of quality in all positions ith the excepton of the flanks. Babel is looking a good future prospect but I think that Kewell collapsing after hinting a renaissance and the form of Finan and JAR with the Agger injury has not helped although I wish we had bought a top notch winger, but was there finance.

Now the progress is taking shape at a rate that our finances have allowed, and as it is in vogue then to compare to the other three

1. Arsenal, bizarrely Mr wenger picking up some criticism after losing the trilogy about his team being tired and not rotated enough

I would love to have a journalists memory to justify my behaviour at times

2. The Mancs have built well on years of success and spending power and a great manager in the PL

3. Chelsea, Mourhino and money is a good combination sorry was. The team is still there but whatever they say Jose leaving did affect them. I just pray that our backroom office shambles doesnt end up with the nightmare situation of Rafa going there for a couple of seasons, can you imagine Rafa with limitless money and his CL pedigree. Now theres a nightmare scenario for all concerned even the most vehement Rafa bashers, he could win the CL and rotate to his hearts content with 22 quality players. Although another couple of seasons and he could be doing that here

But that takes patience and thats not trendy anymore

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:20 am

bigmick wrote:My prediction is that if Rafa stays another ten years or leaves tomorrow, we will still qualify for the Champions League and make it out of the group stages regardless of who takes over. Then we will need to win three home and away matches and a final to add to our big ears tally. To me, though it's lovely and a fantastic experience for the fans, it doesn't form my opinion on whether Rafa should stay or go, or indeed the identity of any new manager. When the Champions League was dreamt up over a decade ago, it was formulated just like the Premier League, to benefit the bigger and wealthier clubs. Over time that has come to fruition, and it also stands to reason that those from the richest and most widely watched league in the World (the Premiership) are at a significant advantage to most of the other teams. Get used to Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United etc being in the quarters, the semi's and winning it because over the next few years unless something happens to disturb the status quo it will continue to happen.

Kinell, Mick, have you always felt this way about the Champions League or do I detect a new--and to me quite unfathomable--flippancy about progressing in football's premier club competition? Are you really saying that we basically just have to show up in order to have a good CL run? That our position in the richest league in the world means we'll walk it to the quarters at least, year in, year out? That any old manager could successfully navigate us through the group stages and see us get past the likes of Inter, Barcelona or Juve? Really? Or have I misunderstood?

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Who is online