Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:28 pm

StMike, that self belief always existed IN THE BOOTROOM and flowed out into the first team squad.

Rafa has to appoint a scouse-mentality assistant manager, a Gary Mac, Terry Mac or a KK style of person who can become the lads mentor and really get them into the mindset of only the best will do. Rafa has shown he cant provide that and Stevie G is likewise short of that aspect of his character. The difference between CL success and CL success over a 9 month campaign is Man Management ??

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:47 pm

Reg wrote:StMike, that self belief always existed IN THE BOOTROOM and flowed out into the first team squad.

Rafa has to appoint a scouse-mentality assistant manager, a Gary Mac, Terry Mac or a KK style of person who can become the lads mentor and really get them into the mindset of only the best will do. Rafa has shown he cant provide that and Stevie G is likewise short of that aspect of his character. The difference between CL success and CL success over a 9 month campaign is Man Management ??

Oh yes good point.

It also fell apart when Pako left - we need an assitant .

FU.CK OFF

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:57 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:There isn't really an argument to be made against the fact that it took Ferguson 7 seasons to win the league (the dismissive 'it's not relevant' statement is as good as it gets for most - without actually explaining how and why it isn't relevant). It is of course absolutely relevant and those reasons have been elaborated upon numerous times.

Excuse me, but why the f.uck is it relevant ?

Its totally irrelavant and has f.uck all to do with LFC, its just a sorry, clutching at straws @rsed excuse.

F.uck it then, if we can play this pathetic game, how long diid it take Wenger, Mourinhio, Dalglish (with blackburn) and Wilkinson (with leeds I think) to win the league ?

ITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOTALLY IRRELAVANT TO LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB !

A great, well thought-out and contructive reply.

The fact that it took Ferguson 7 years to win the title is relevant when evaluating our 'progression' under Rafa and the question of whether he should stay or go, which are essentially the two lines of debate in this thread.

He is the archetype that shows patience can breed success at the highest level, and the similarities between the early years of his time at the Manc's and Rafa's time with us, are notable.

My "constructive and well thought out post" quality wise is on par with the "relevant thing".

F.uck it sack Benitez then, as it didnt take Dalglish as long to win the league with Blackburn.

And thats sort of relevant as Dalglish has been manager of LFC.

Its not relevant, and I think you'll find yourself in the minority on that one. Thank God the bulk of posters on here realise that.

I think the 'bulk of posters' can speak for themselves.

I've explained why it's relevant to the question of 'should Rafa stay or go' and our level of 'progress', I've explained briefly in this thread and to BigMick in the past - I've even dealt with the 'Wenger only took until his second season to win the league' point, I think in the 'so who do you want to replace him?' thread.

Bad Bob made a pretty good summation in this thread too, so I see no need to elaborate on a point that has already been explained.

It's up to you whether you read it.

You can try and write detailed and well thought out posts on this particular subject, dress it up all u\you want, but at the end of the day its ..........

....... Still irrelavent

by **LFC2007** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:09 pm

Of course it is Bamaga :kungfu:

Nice edit btw.

by **Reg** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:13 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Reg wrote:StMike, that self belief always existed IN THE BOOTROOM and flowed out into the first team squad.

Rafa has to appoint a scouse-mentality assistant manager, a Gary Mac, Terry Mac or a KK style of person who can become the lads mentor and really get them into the mindset of only the best will do. Rafa has shown he cant provide that and Stevie G is likewise short of that aspect of his character. The difference between CL success and CL success over a 9 month campaign is Man Management ??

Oh yes good point.

It also fell apart when Pako left - we need an assitant .

FU.CK OFF

Whats your problem today Leon? No need for a response like that laddie.

So if the same set of players who can get to a CL semi final cant win week-in, week-out in the league, whats your reading on that Mystic Meg?

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:27 pm

Interestingly enough fergie finished second in his first full season then struggled mid-table with the possibility of relegation before finishing second then winning his first title. So do those that think the fergie miracle can be repeated think we're going to dice with relegation? And we didn't finish second in any of Rafa's first four seasons. And fergie didn't win a trophy until 1990 so where exactly are the indicators that after seven years Rafa will do a fergie? Maybe if Rafa's predecessor gets neck deep in sh1t over racism.......................

Wishful thinking, no more no less.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:35 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:The thing about Ferguson taking seven years to win it at Man Utd ALWAYS comes up, and I'm at a loss to know why people think it has any relevance to be honest. Wenger, far more recently than Fergusons first title did the double in his first season, so does that therefore mean that we should have sacked Rafa three years ago because he didn't do the same? I just don't get this argument at all from people who are trying to justify the managers record (if indeed it needs any justification).

And what if the manager stays for seven years and we don't win it, are we saying that as he didn't manage to match Ferguson's feat of winning it in his seventh season we should get rid? What if in that seventh season we fail on goal difference, who'd want to part company then? What if next season we finish tenth, do we give him another two seasons to allow him as much time as Ferguson got regardless of how he's doing (of course I know we won't finish tenth, I'm merely demonstrating the point). What if Wigan get taken over by Bill Gates and they romp away with the premiership next season with the entire Brazillian first team wearing the blue and white, is that the managers fault and do we still compare him to Ferguson fifteen years ago?

It's simply a "non point" as far as I'm concerned. If we are to compare him to ferguson, are we then going to sack him if he does win the title in his seventh season but then can't manage to win it seven years out of the next nine or whatever it was that whisky nose managed? Will the comparispons end with that first title or will they continue as time goes on?

Put quite simply, Liverpool as a football club needs to be in the vicinity of challenging for the title. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever who is the manager at any given time, if they are unable to get us into a position whereby we can challenge for the title then their job will eventually come under pressure. In this regard it will iltimately be no different for Rafa than it was for Houllier, Evans or whoever else, and nor should it be.

I don't think the Ferguson comparisons are meant to be taken literally--as in, it took Fergie seven years and so Rafa should have exactly that long too before the axe falls. I think they are used because we all can agree--some through gritted teeth--that Ferguson has been an excellent manager in English football but that it took him some time to get things right at a club where expectations were high. With the benefit of hindsight we can see that, had Man U lost patience too soon, they would have missed out on an era of great success. Those of us who rate Rafa think he has the potential to become an excellent manager in English football in his own right and beg patience while he gets things right. Rafa may just have it in him to get Liverpool back into the dominant position in English football for the next decade plus and we should be very wary of pulling the trigger too quickly.

^ What he said ^

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:45 pm

And if after seven years he hasn't won it do we give him seven more just in case he then goes on to win three quadruples in a row. Of course if we have got the wrong manager we might miss out on the right man by giving him time on the premise losing patience too soon might jeopardise a title challenge.

But we should pin all our hopes on the exception rather than the rule..............

by **LFC2007** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:46 pm

IRYTBBP

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:05 pm

Owzat wrote:And if after seven years he hasn't won it do we give him seven more just in case he then goes on to win three quadruples in a row. Of course if we have got the wrong manager we might miss out on the right man by giving him time on the premise losing patience too soon might jeopardise a title challenge.

But we should pin all our hopes on the exception rather than the rule..............

Bottom line is that it comes down to faith. Do you have faith that Rafa will "do a Fergie" and make us a title-winning force again? I do, as it happens, and that's why I advocate giving him more time to get it right. But there are limits. I won't put a date on it, such as seven years--that's not the point of the Fergie comparisons anyway--but there will be a point in time where it is appropriate to get shut if Rafa hasn't gotten us any closer to the title. For me, that point hasn't yet been reached and the Fergie comparison is merely a way of reminding people that successful managers don't always get it right straight away. At minimum, I'd like to see Rafa given another year--a year completely free of the back room turmoil we've experienced this season. If that happens and we still don't mount a challenge, I'd probably say it's time to ask some hard questions about his future with the club.

by **redtrader74** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:12 pm

Owzat wrote:
Festy wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:and he has also done a good job with blooding in Agger, Lucas, and Babel

and Skrtel (out of nowhere)

Funny how Skrtel has dropped straight in and performing, guess he doesn't need a season to warm up.............

He's done OK thats all. Its not funny at all really, different players will adjust to a new Club and League at their own rate, some will be more suited to certain aspects than others.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:57 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Owzat wrote:And if after seven years he hasn't won it do we give him seven more just in case he then goes on to win three quadruples in a row. Of course if we have got the wrong manager we might miss out on the right man by giving him time on the premise losing patience too soon might jeopardise a title challenge.

But we should pin all our hopes on the exception rather than the rule..............

Bottom line is that it comes down to faith. Do you have faith that Rafa will "do a Fergie" and make us a title-winning force again? I do, as it happens, and that's why I advocate giving him more time to get it right. But there are limits. I won't put a date on it, such as seven years--that's not the point of the Fergie comparisons anyway--but there will be a point in time where it is appropriate to get shut if Rafa hasn't gotten us any closer to the title. For me, that point hasn't yet been reached and the Fergie comparison is merely a way of reminding people that successful managers don't always get it right straight away. At minimum, I'd like to see Rafa given another year--a year completely free of the back room turmoil we've experienced this season. If that happens and we still don't mount a challenge, I'd probably say it's time to ask some hard questions about his future with the club.

So basically the "Fergie followers" are saying once Fergie has retired it will only take Rafa a few years to win the title (depending of course on the mancs following the Liverpool approach when Dalglish resigned by appointing a poor manager. ) If we follow the Fergie comparison to Liverpool that should be sometime in the next 6 or 7 years as Fergie has said he intends staying another 3 seasons, we should be expecting a title sometime after the year 2014 - yippeee

Seriously, I don't see ANY relevance between Fergie's time at the mancs and Rafa at Liverpool.

I would agree with you Bob that its more a question of belief. Do you believe Rafa will get it right one day or are we destined to stay as a good cup side that promises much but achieves little beyond finishing top four in the league?

More importantly do the players believe?

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:15 pm

s@int wrote:
Bottom line is that it comes down to faith. Do you have faith that Rafa will "do a Fergie" and make us a title-winning force again? I do, as it happens, and that's why I advocate giving him more time to get it right. But there are limits. I won't put a date on it, such as seven years--that's not the point of the Fergie comparisons anyway--but there will be a point in time where it is appropriate to get shut if Rafa hasn't gotten us any closer to the title. For me, that point hasn't yet been reached and the Fergie comparison is merely a way of reminding people that successful managers don't always get it right straight away. At minimum, I'd like to see Rafa given another year--a year completely free of the back room turmoil we've experienced this season. If that happens and we still don't mount a challenge, I'd probably say it's time to ask some hard questions about his future with the club.

So basically the "Fergie followers" are saying once Fergie has retired it will only take Rafa a few years to win the title (depending of course on the mancs following the Liverpool approach when Dalglish resigned by appointing a poor manager. ) If we follow the Fergie comparison to Liverpool that should be sometime in the next 6 or 7 years as Fergie has said he intends staying another 3 seasons, we should be expecting a title sometime after the year 2014 - yippeee

I don't know why sometimes ppl try to make things complicated... Bad Bob's post was as clear as crystal... there was no mention about "Fergie followers" and I didnt' see any mention about us having to wait until fergie retires to win the league... :upside:

by **JBG** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:37 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Owzat wrote:And if after seven years he hasn't won it do we give him seven more just in case he then goes on to win three quadruples in a row. Of course if we have got the wrong manager we might miss out on the right man by giving him time on the premise losing patience too soon might jeopardise a title challenge.

But we should pin all our hopes on the exception rather than the rule..............

Bottom line is that it comes down to faith. Do you have faith that Rafa will "do a Fergie" and make us a title-winning force again? I do, as it happens, and that's why I advocate giving him more time to get it right. But there are limits. I won't put a date on it, such as seven years--that's not the point of the Fergie comparisons anyway--but there will be a point in time where it is appropriate to get shut if Rafa hasn't gotten us any closer to the title. For me, that point hasn't yet been reached and the Fergie comparison is merely a way of reminding people that successful managers don't always get it right straight away. At minimum, I'd like to see Rafa given another year--a year completely free of the back room turmoil we've experienced this season. If that happens and we still don't mount a challenge, I'd probably say it's time to ask some hard questions about his future with the club.

So basically the "Fergie followers" are saying once Fergie has retired it will only take Rafa a few years to win the title (depending of course on the mancs following the Liverpool approach when Dalglish resigned by appointing a poor manager. ) If we follow the Fergie comparison to Liverpool that should be sometime in the next 6 or 7 years as Fergie has said he intends staying another 3 seasons, we should be expecting a title sometime after the year 2014 - yippeee

Seriously, I don't see ANY relevance between Fergie's time at the mancs and Rafa at Liverpool.

I would agree with you Bob that its more a question of belief. Do you believe Rafa will get it right one day or are we destined to stay as a good cup side that promises much but achieves little beyond finishing top four in the league?

More importantly do the players believe?

Indeed you cannot compare the two situations: the game is massively different now, Man UTD filled a power vacum left by Liverpool after Daglish resigned (Arsenal surprisingly didn't step up as everyone thought they would) then consolidated their position and reaped the massive commercial benefits when the financial side of the game took off in the mid 90s.

Also, UTD were in a real mess when Ferguson took over, yes, he inherited some decent players but there were many bad eggs and it wasn't really until he had time to get rid of the troublemakers and dead wood and bring in his own players that UTD started improving. The league was also much weaker in 1993 than it is now, that UTD team was certainly Ferguson's weakest championship winning side, hell, arguably the Spurs or Everton sides of today would have challenged for the league back then.

Its probably more apt to compare Benetiz' situation to that of Arsenal when Wenger took over: Arsenal then were well behind UTD and Newcastle, slightly behind Liverpool and Chelsea as well, and while there was money there not the same amount of money his rivals had.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:41 pm

maguskwt wrote:
s@int wrote:
Bottom line is that it comes down to faith. Do you have faith that Rafa will "do a Fergie" and make us a title-winning force again? I do, as it happens, and that's why I advocate giving him more time to get it right. But there are limits. I won't put a date on it, such as seven years--that's not the point of the Fergie comparisons anyway--but there will be a point in time where it is appropriate to get shut if Rafa hasn't gotten us any closer to the title. For me, that point hasn't yet been reached and the Fergie comparison is merely a way of reminding people that successful managers don't always get it right straight away. At minimum, I'd like to see Rafa given another year--a year completely free of the back room turmoil we've experienced this season. If that happens and we still don't mount a challenge, I'd probably say it's time to ask some hard questions about his future with the club.

So basically the "Fergie followers" are saying once Fergie has retired it will only take Rafa a few years to win the title (depending of course on the mancs following the Liverpool approach when Dalglish resigned by appointing a poor manager. ) If we follow the Fergie comparison to Liverpool that should be sometime in the next 6 or 7 years as Fergie has said he intends staying another 3 seasons, we should be expecting a title sometime after the year 2014 - yippeee

I don't know why sometimes ppl try to make things complicated... Bad Bob's post was as clear as crystal... there was no mention about "Fergie followers" and I didnt' see any mention about us having to wait until fergie retires to win the league...

I was combining my reply to the Fergie followers and to Bob. The Fergie followers are saying IT TOOK FERGIE 7 YEARS. It also took the resignation of Dalglish and the appointment of a poor manager in Souness.

So logically we would also have to wait till Fergie retires and the mancs appoint a poor manager.

Nothing complicated ....... at least for anyone who's not a moron.

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Who is online