Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:59 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
In relation to the post I've been referred to, I take it fans can't change their mind. I take Sabre can't accept Torres being the best forward in the world right now because at the start of the season he didn't think Torres would hack it. I haven't changed me mind on Benitez. I want him out at the end of the season, champions league winner or not. That's not saying I won't back him and beg for success while he's in charge but I still want him out. He WON'T win the league with Liverpool Football Club and I can't stand us being a cup side. Year after year we look good from March onwards because we only ever have 1 competition to go for.

2004/05 league had gone, out of the FA Cup and the league cup we'd just lost...left just the european cup in which we reached the final and won.
2005/06 out of europe thanks to Benfica, out of the league cup and the league was never going to be achieved...left just the FA Cup which we won.
2006/07 out of the league again. Out of both FA Cup and league cup in January...left just the european cup which we reached the final of.
2007/08 out of the league cup before the new year. out of the fa cup courtasey of Barnsley and out of the league title chase by christmas...leaving just one competition AGAIN.

Interesting in the context of this comment which you made earlier in the thread; 'I think we have the players, and possibly even the manager to win the league , what we don't have is the mentality.

You contradict yourself at almost every turn, and you wonder why I refer you to my previous answers?

Absolutely 100% clueless.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:02 pm

One thing I forgot to mention in my list of excuses for our poor league season and dubious progress, was the loss of confidence of Sissoko that eventually led to his transfer. Many seem to forget the awesome season he had in 2005/2006 and the big games he played for us since then. A couple of bad injuries and the arrival of Mascherano and Lucas seemed to take away his confidence and make him try things that he didn't excell at. (passing

)

I still think he was a good player and even with the arrival of Masch and Lucas could have been a very good squad player if he had stayed. Our current lack of creative wide players made things even more difficult for him as it just highlighted his own lack of creativity.

He is now excelling for Juventus!

by **Zi-Dan Agger** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:16 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
In relation to the post I've been referred to, I take it fans can't change their mind. I take Sabre can't accept Torres being the best forward in the world right now because at the start of the season he didn't think Torres would hack it. I haven't changed me mind on Benitez. I want him out at the end of the season, champions league winner or not. That's not saying I won't back him and beg for success while he's in charge but I still want him out. He WON'T win the league with Liverpool Football Club and I can't stand us being a cup side. Year after year we look good from March onwards because we only ever have 1 competition to go for.

2004/05 league had gone, out of the FA Cup and the league cup we'd just lost...left just the european cup in which we reached the final and won.
2005/06 out of europe thanks to Benfica, out of the league cup and the league was never going to be achieved...left just the FA Cup which we won.
2006/07 out of the league again. Out of both FA Cup and league cup in January...left just the european cup which we reached the final of.
2007/08 out of the league cup before the new year. out of the fa cup courtasey of Barnsley and out of the league title chase by christmas...leaving just one competition AGAIN.

Interesting in the context of this comment which you made earlier in the thread; 'I think we have the players, and possibly even the manager to win the league , what we don't have is the mentality.

You contradict yourself at almost every turn, and you wonder why I refer you to my previous answers?

Absolutely 100% clueless.

I totally agree. I noticed thay myself. GBJH changes his mind more than he changes his underwear, it often appears that he chooses his arguement based on making an arguement with someone who's made a valid point.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:50 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:There isn't really an argument to be made against the fact that it took Ferguson 7 seasons to win the league (the dismissive 'it's not relevant' statement is as good as it gets for most - without actually explaining how and why it isn't relevant). It is of course absolutely relevant and those reasons have been elaborated upon numerous times.

Excuse me, but why the f.uck is it relevant ?

Its totally irrelavant and has f.uck all to do with LFC, its just a sorry, clutching at straws @rsed excuse.

F.uck it then, if we can play this pathetic game, how long diid it take Wenger, Mourinhio, Dalglish (with blackburn) and Wilkinson (with leeds I think) to win the league ?

ITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOTALLY IRRELAVANT TO LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB !

A great, well thought-out and contructive reply.

The fact that it took Ferguson 7 years to win the title is relevant when evaluating our 'progression' under Rafa and the question of whether he should stay or go, which are essentially the two lines of debate in this thread.

He is the archetype that shows patience can breed success at the highest level, and the similarities between the early years of his time at the Manc's and Rafa's time with us, are notable.

My "constructive and well thought out post" quality wise is on par with the "relevant thing".

F.uck it sack Benitez then, as it didnt take Dalglish as long to win the league with Blackburn.

And thats sort of relevant as Dalglish has been manager of LFC. :no

Its not relevant, and I think you'll find yourself in the minority on that one. Thank God the bulk of posters on here realise that.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:08 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:There isn't really an argument to be made against the fact that it took Ferguson 7 seasons to win the league (the dismissive 'it's not relevant' statement is as good as it gets for most - without actually explaining how and why it isn't relevant). It is of course absolutely relevant and those reasons have been elaborated upon numerous times.

Excuse me, but why the f.uck is it relevant ?

Its totally irrelavant and has f.uck all to do with LFC, its just a sorry, clutching at straws @rsed excuse.

F.uck it then, if we can play this pathetic game, how long diid it take Wenger, Mourinhio, Dalglish (with blackburn) and Wilkinson (with leeds I think) to win the league ?

ITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOTALLY IRRELAVANT TO LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB !

A great, well thought-out and contructive reply.

The fact that it took Ferguson 7 years to win the title is relevant when evaluating our 'progression' under Rafa and the question of whether he should stay or go, which are essentially the two lines of debate in this thread.

He is the archetype that shows patience can breed success at the highest level, and the similarities between the early years of his time at the Manc's and Rafa's time with us, are notable.

My "constructive and well thought out post" quality wise is on par with the "relevant thing".

F.uck it sack Benitez then, as it didnt take Dalglish as long to win the league with Blackburn.

And thats sort of relevant as Dalglish has been manager of LFC.

Its not relevant, and I think you'll find yourself in the minority on that one. Thank God the bulk of posters on here realise that.

I think the 'bulk of posters' can speak for themselves.

I've explained why it's relevant to the question of 'should Rafa stay or go' and our level of 'progress', I've explained briefly in this thread and to BigMick in the past - I've even dealt with the 'Wenger only took until his second season to win the league' point, I think in the 'so who do you want to replace him?' thread.

Bad Bob made a pretty good summation in this thread too, so I see no need to elaborate on a point that has already been explained.

It's up to you whether you read it.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:21 am

ferguson's and benitez's eras of football here in england are so different with all the money and other factors involved. just because fergie took 7 years doesnt mean benitez needs to use that as his benchmark? why the hell must his benchmark be set so low? why couldnt arsene wenger be his benchmark then when arsenal did the double in his first season?

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:47 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:ferguson's and benitez's eras of football here in england are so different with all the money and other factors involved. just because fergie took 7 years doesnt mean benitez needs to use that as his benchmark? why the hell must his benchmark be set so low? why couldnt arsene wenger be his benchmark then when arsenal did the double in his first season?

in his second season... subsequently he's now won 3 premier leagues in 13 years.

I don't suppose anyone is setting a benchmark for benitez. Those who are pointing out that fergie didn't win anything for 7 years are merely asking for some perspective... he is after all the most successful manager in the premier league in the last 1 1/2 decade and won 9 league titles in 20 years.

Sometimes just because we're hungry we can't be like kittens meowing for food...

"I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food"... (that would be what I hear every morning if I understood cat language and that is how some of you lot are sounding like right now)

why? because we're thoughtful creatures... and thoughtful creatures look at things in perspective...

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:21 am

maguskwt wrote:"I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food"...

coming from someone whose got a hamster humping on a mouse?

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:44 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
maguskwt wrote:"I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food, I want food, gimme food"...

coming from someone whose got a hamster humping on a mouse?

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:41 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:ferguson's and benitez's eras of football here in england are so different with all the money and other factors involved. just because fergie took 7 years doesnt mean benitez needs to use that as his benchmark? why the hell must his benchmark be set so low? why couldnt arsene wenger be his benchmark then when arsenal did the double in his first season?

Different era of football, obviously. Similar situation then compared to what Rafa has to do now? Absolutely. I'm talking about breaking the dominance of a team that's been winning the title, and know how to challenge and win titles from experience through a tried and tested formula through trail and error. Trail and error that took seven years. As Fergie was back then trying to break our grip, so is Rafa trying to break his now. In my opinion, this idea that three years is all one should get before being shown the door is just ridiculous. If it takes another 2 or 3 years, so be it. He should be given as much time IMO. The CL is the key. The more we keep succeeding in that competition, the more talent will be attracted to the club under Benitez. There's proof of this already happening.

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:37 am

I think the biggest positive for me is that Rafa has showed that he is capable of doing nearly everything it takes to win the league except for keeping the consistency, and maybe his bliiiiip management needs help.

He is capable of successful BIG MONEY buys, he has had successful medium-large buys, he has been able to find talent "out of nowhere" and from Spain. He has brought it some real quality youth, hasn't sold anyone that went on to be a major sucess (except for maybe Momo in the future, but he needed to go because Masch is of a higher class and we needed the cash) One knock I would say is that he hasn't really had a successful domestic signing (Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant)

Although its not been the theme of his season's this year he showed he is capable of getting off to a good start, he has shown on multiple ocasions that he can get the team to finish strong. Our league campaign last december and January was VERY successful. We beat chelsea and arsenal at home last year, we are capable of getting results away at the bridge and at the emirates. He does need to improve our results against United and he hasn't shown that we can dominate all the bottom clubs like Birmingham and take 6 points from ALL of em

we have shown we can make the finals of every cup we compete in, and although some people point out that Rafa's best year in the league we went out early in the CL, we also won the FA Cup that year, which I know is a smaller commitment in # of games, but we were able to put together a good stretch of league win while winning on another front, and we are doing that right now as well.

Rafa just know needs to be able to put all of his abilities and accomplishes together in one season, and hopefully beat United in the league

. He hasn't shown that he can bring young players through sucessfully from the youth ranks yet, but I think that might change next year, and he has also done a good job with blooding in Agger, Lucas, and Babel

by **Festy** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:54 am

JoeTerp wrote:and he has also done a good job with blooding in Agger, Lucas, and Babel

and Skrtel (out of nowhere) :buttrock

by **kazza** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 am

s@int wrote:One thing I forgot to mention in my list of excuses for our poor league season and dubious progress, was the loss of confidence of Sissoko that eventually led to his transfer. Many seem to forget the awesome season he had in 2005/2006 and the big games he played for us since then. A couple of bad injuries and the arrival of Mascherano and Lucas seemed to take away his confidence and make him try things that he didn't excell at. (passing )

I still think he was a good player and even with the arrival of Masch and Lucas could have been a very good squad player if he had stayed. Our current lack of creative wide players made things even more difficult for him as it just highlighted his own lack of creativity.

He is now excelling for Juventus!

I think Momo left because he wanted too rather than he was not good enough as he wanted to play regularly. I also wished he had stayed as he was a fighter and we need more of them in the team. I am happy he is doing well as he always gave us everything. he was unlucky with injuries then was on the back foot since.

We have not really mised him as a team I am glad to say as Mascha is better and are well covered in that department.

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:36 pm

Festy wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:and he has also done a good job with blooding in Agger, Lucas, and Babel

and Skrtel (out of nowhere)

Funny how Skrtel has dropped straight in and performing, guess he doesn't need a season to warm up.............

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:07 pm

We don't have enough experience and influence of players who have won the League. Rafa I believe is addressing this though. Mascherano is a league winner, as is Skrtel, Agger and Aurelio. Mascherano has been a revelation at Liverpool and one of our most reliable performers, Skrtel has adapted very quickly as did Agger and Aurelio is a player favoured by Benitez and in my opinion rightly so. Which brings me on to my next point:

Consistency. We simply do not have enough consistent performers to mount a serious title challenge. Skrtel has been a fantastic signing and will only get better and the mental strength he has shown to settle so quickly at Liverpool at such a difficult time shows me that the lad is a winner. In Agger's case injury has robbed him of his chance to continue in the same vein as that which he started and Aurelio is in a similar position. Mascherano has been affected by neither of these and as such has been a perfect addition to our squad.

Finally we come to the last main point as to why Liverpool have struggled to mount a challenge this Season. Rotation? No. Board Room politics? No. Zonal Marking? No. Belief? Yes. Obviously belief is intrinsically linked to experience and consistency. If you have experience you are more likely to believe in yourself and this belief will attribute to your consistency. If you have all three then you are set.

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