Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:07 am

Festy wrote:
Owzat wrote:2007/8

Premiership : 4th (66-78 points)
Champions League : Semi-Finals+
FA Cup : 5th Round
League Cup : Quarter-Finals

But if you want to assess if we are progressing then we haven't won a cup for two seasons and we've dropped one place in the league. With it difficult to keep reaching finals of the Champions League then you have to say even reaching the final this season would not really constitute progress. A win in the Champions League would be great but would it constitute progress any more than winning the FA Cup or League Cup, but finishing third or fourth?

Sorry but gunners are only 5 points above us this season with 4 games to go. We can very much finish 3rd season with the kind of form they are in.

Even if we do the only "progress" would be a few points. They have to play Derby so their GD could well be a factor. If they beat Derby then we'd need to win at least three of our games and hope they don't pick up enough points in their remaining games. It is very much a LONGSHOT

Yes, I could have put something to indicate that isn't our final position. But the chances of us catching Arsenal are about the same as the bitters catching us

by **redtrader74** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:24 am

Yes we have progressed, we are likely to finish this season with a maximum of 5 losses in the League, a massive improvement on Rafas first year, and GH's last, and with a bit of luck another CL final beckons. So yes, OVERALL, ALL COMPETITIONS taken into account, we have progressed under Rafa.

The LEague challenge has not materialised again this season, how the fck could it???, IMO its something of a miracle that we haven't imploded this year, let alone challenge for the title, everyday a new quote appears that sheds more light on the turmoil inside Anfield, recently Moores and PArry have called the last year 'horrific', 'a disaster', 'awful' etc. etc. The last year.... a year within which we still managed to get to a CL final, no small feat however pathetically it is dressed. The usual rotation debate rears its ugly head, the facts of our results during rotation clearly dismiss the precieved detrimental effect of it. The fact is the manager believes it will work and WILL continue to use it, like it or lump it.

While we fail to win the League we will always need a couple of players, because strangely our competitors will also try and improve each season. People dismiss money being a major factor, but look at the facts of the recent title winners, Chelsea, Chelsea, Manu, Manu....see a pattern? Keeping Rafa, and management stabilty allowing his plan and players a chance of bearing fruit, is IMO our only oppurtunity of closing the gaps our rivals have on us.

I'm not saying he is a god or a genius (nobody really does, its bollox), but he is a top manager, one of the top 10 in the World. He's made mistakes, not filling the CB role in the Summer being one, but maybe Hienze was the only buy that was sanctioned, or our great Chief executives advice might have been 'don't worry we'll get him' I mean he was the head of the Premier league once, if anyone knew what the outcome could be? who knows. Continually playing Kuyt, another mistake IMO, but then again a top class manager and tactician might just know a little more than us.

I hope for a season without board upheaval, and then i expect progression on the League front, we don't lose many, having the conviction to turn the draws into wins will be key in turning us into Champions.

by **Sabre** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:53 am

Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:There isn't really an argument to be made against the fact that it took Ferguson 7 seasons to win the league (the dismissive 'it's not relevant' statement is as good as it gets for most - without actually explaining how and why it isn't relevant). It is of course absolutely relevant and those reasons have been elaborated upon numerous times.

Excuse me, but why the f.uck is it relevant ?

Its totally irrelavant and has f.uck all to do with LFC, its just a sorry, clutching at straws @rsed excuse.

F.uck it then, if we can play this pathetic game, how long diid it take Wenger, Mourinhio, Dalglish (with blackburn) and Wilkinson (with leeds I think) to win the league ?

ITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOTALLY IRRELAVANT TO LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB !

I agree it's not relevant.

Why the fúck do you brought that post then? you may fairly ask. I brought it because Rafa's been compared ad nauseam to both Wenger and Ferguson, and the comparison was always negative.

I decided to bring a close inspection in Ferguson's first 4 years.

But if we all agree that we should not compare Rafa to Ferguson, neither for the positives nor the negatives, then we have an agreement

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:56 am

Rafa has obviously made some mistakes, everybody makes mistakes over a four year period in their professional life, be it whether you are a cocktail barman, a plumber or whatever else you do for a living. To be fair though he has also got many things right over the four year period, and the essence of good football management is making sure you get more big things right than wrong. What makes it fascinating to watch and debate over is of course because you don't really know whether a decision or a policy is right or wrong until time has passed by, until the evidence is beyond argument. It would be reasonable for instance I think to conclude that we overpaid for Kuyt as a striker, given what we know now. He's doing an admirable job filling in at right midfield and comfortably being our best option there (and I guess inadvertantly highlighting the inadequacy of another couple of purchases) but as a striker he didn't really work out. Similarly, Torres has fairly obviously been an absolutely inspired signing, and it does help if when you go and spend record money you come up with the goods. We can forgive him Benayoun at 5 million for instance when we got Torres for 20ish.

One of the problems Rafa has though in my view, and I say this as someone who has been very critical of him in the past, is that our immediate rivals have also improved while he has been doing his thing at Liverpool. Arsenal clearly are an entirely different proposition to the team which limped into fourth place last season, Man Utd have improved immeasureably this term now that Ronaldo is fulfilling his potential and then some, while even though Chelsea wouldn't be as good a side as the Mourinho one which included Duff and Robben as the wide midfielders in a 4-5-1, they are still full of quality throughout the team.

So Rafa's job in terms of getting us into a position whereby we can be considered realsitic challengers for the league clearly isn't easy. It's far easier for instance to challenge for the Champions League, get in the top four in the League (ie make sure you finish above Everton, Villa and Portsmouth), get nine points or more from your six group games to get out of the group (which all the English teams practically always do), win three home and away ties and pick your top scorer in the final and there you have it. I know I'm simplifying it to a ridiculous extent, but there's no question it's much easier than getting into a position whereby you challenge for currently the hardest League title in World football.

So how do we do it if the other teams keep on throwing money at it and improving year on year? Well we clearly aren't going to outspend the likes of Man Utd and Chelsea under the current ownership, so we are going to have to box a little more clever to give ourselves a chance. We are obviously going to have to continue to get more of the big decisions right than wrong, Torres style, and I think it is fairly clear we are goign to have to do what all underdogs do in such a situation. We are going to have to build a collective team spirit, a togetherness and an understanding from a tight knit unit. Yes less rotation is a massive factor I think, as is finding an identifiable team pattern and formation.

I think we can do it next season though (not win it, but at some stage launch some sort of challenge) and provided we continue to get the big decisions right, and give ourselves an opportunity then you never know where we could get to.

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:57 am

redtrader74 wrote:Yes we have progressed, we are likely to finish this season with a maximum of 5 losses in the League, a massive improvement on Rafas first year, and GH's last, and with a bit of luck another CL final beckons. So yes, OVERALL, ALL COMPETITIONS taken into account, we have progressed under Rafa.

Less defeats but too many draws, one step forward and two steps back. And while we will likely register more points in the league this season, it is still way off the title pace so progress if you take a positive here, a positive there, but "the whole is greater than the sum of its part" (to quote Gestalt) and overall we're not any more title challengers than we were last season. If you want to pick up little influences then I ask you to balance a slight improvement in points/wins against the fact that we have a 30 goal striker - wouldn't you expect the 'improvement' to be bigger given that massive plus?

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:13 pm

The thing about Ferguson taking seven years to win it at Man Utd ALWAYS comes up, and I'm at a loss to know why people think it has any relevance to be honest. Wenger, far more recently than Fergusons first title did the double in his first season, so does that therefore mean that we should have sacked Rafa three years ago because he didn't do the same? I just don't get this argument at all from people who are trying to justify the managers record (if indeed it needs any justification).

And what if the manager stays for seven years and we don't win it, are we saying that as he didn't manage to match Ferguson's feat of winning it in his seventh season we should get rid? What if in that seventh season we fail on goal difference, who'd want to part company then? What if next season we finish tenth, do we give him another two seasons to allow him as much time as Ferguson got regardless of how he's doing (of course I know we won't finish tenth, I'm merely demonstrating the point). What if Wigan get taken over by Bill Gates and they romp away with the premiership next season with the entire Brazillian first team wearing the blue and white, is that the managers fault and do we still compare him to Ferguson fifteen years ago?

It's simply a "non point" as far as I'm concerned. If we are to compare him to ferguson, are we then going to sack him if he does win the title in his seventh season but then can't manage to win it seven years out of the next nine or whatever it was that whisky nose managed? Will the comparispons end with that first title or will they continue as time goes on?

Put quite simply, Liverpool as a football club needs to be in the vicinity of challenging for the title. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever who is the manager at any given time, if they are unable to get us into a position whereby we can challenge for the title then their job will eventually come under pressure. In this regard it will iltimately be no different for Rafa than it was for Houllier, Evans or whoever else, and nor should it be.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:14 pm

Owzat wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Yes we have progressed, we are likely to finish this season with a maximum of 5 losses in the League, a massive improvement on Rafas first year, and GH's last, and with a bit of luck another CL final beckons. So yes, OVERALL, ALL COMPETITIONS taken into account, we have progressed under Rafa.

Less defeats but too many draws, one step forward and two steps back. And while we will likely register more points in the league this season, it is still way off the title pace so progress if you take a positive here, a positive there, but "the whole is greater than the sum of its part" (to quote Gestalt) and overall we're not any more title challengers than we were last season. If you want to pick up little influences then I ask you to balance a slight improvement in points/wins against the fact that we have a 30 goal striker - wouldn't you expect the 'improvement' to be bigger given that massive plus?

The counter-weight of course being the off-field turmoil this season. Wouldn't you understand it if we'd had a much worse season, given all of the nonsense that has been unfolding behind the scenes?

I honestly think we'll look back at 2007-2008 as the year of the boardroom meltdown and thank our lucky stars that we still managed a top-four finish and a great run in the Champions League.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:21 pm

bigmick wrote:The thing about Ferguson taking seven years to win it at Man Utd ALWAYS comes up, and I'm at a loss to know why people think it has any relevance to be honest. Wenger, far more recently than Fergusons first title did the double in his first season, so does that therefore mean that we should have sacked Rafa three years ago because he didn't do the same? I just don't get this argument at all from people who are trying to justify the managers record (if indeed it needs any justification).

And what if the manager stays for seven years and we don't win it, are we saying that as he didn't manage to match Ferguson's feat of winning it in his seventh season we should get rid? What if in that seventh season we fail on goal difference, who'd want to part company then? What if next season we finish tenth, do we give him another two seasons to allow him as much time as Ferguson got regardless of how he's doing (of course I know we won't finish tenth, I'm merely demonstrating the point). What if Wigan get taken over by Bill Gates and they romp away with the premiership next season with the entire Brazillian first team wearing the blue and white, is that the managers fault and do we still compare him to Ferguson fifteen years ago?

It's simply a "non point" as far as I'm concerned. If we are to compare him to ferguson, are we then going to sack him if he does win the title in his seventh season but then can't manage to win it seven years out of the next nine or whatever it was that whisky nose managed? Will the comparispons end with that first title or will they continue as time goes on?

Put quite simply, Liverpool as a football club needs to be in the vicinity of challenging for the title. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever who is the manager at any given time, if they are unable to get us into a position whereby we can challenge for the title then their job will eventually come under pressure. In this regard it will iltimately be no different for Rafa than it was for Houllier, Evans or whoever else, and nor should it be.

I don't think the Ferguson comparisons are meant to be taken literally--as in, it took Fergie seven years and so Rafa should have exactly that long too before the axe falls. I think they are used because we all can agree--some through gritted teeth--that Ferguson has been an excellent manager in English football but that it took him some time to get things right at a club where expectations were high. With the benefit of hindsight we can see that, had Man U lost patience too soon, they would have missed out on an era of great success. Those of us who rate Rafa think he has the potential to become an excellent manager in English football in his own right and beg patience while he gets things right. Rafa may just have it in him to get Liverpool back into the dominant position in English football for the next decade plus and we should be very wary of pulling the trigger too quickly.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Owzat wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Yes we have progressed, we are likely to finish this season with a maximum of 5 losses in the League, a massive improvement on Rafas first year, and GH's last, and with a bit of luck another CL final beckons. So yes, OVERALL, ALL COMPETITIONS taken into account, we have progressed under Rafa.

Less defeats but too many draws, one step forward and two steps back. And while we will likely register more points in the league this season, it is still way off the title pace so progress if you take a positive here, a positive there, but "the whole is greater than the sum of its part" (to quote Gestalt) and overall we're not any more title challengers than we were last season. If you want to pick up little influences then I ask you to balance a slight improvement in points/wins against the fact that we have a 30 goal striker - wouldn't you expect the 'improvement' to be bigger given that massive plus?

Too many draws is of course dead right. "If we can turn those draws into wins then we'll be right up there" is the solution for many, but it's not always as simple as that. Quite often in football when you address one problem area, another area which previously you didn't have a problem with raises its ugly head. No doubt next season we'll win more of those games which we've drawn, but we'll lose more of the games which we've drawn as well and although with three points for a win the trade off will be worth it, it's never as simple as it seems.

As for Reds point about progress in ALL competitions, I'm not sure about that. We had our best league season two seasons ago and we won the FA Cup in that same season so this campaign can't really be held up as progression from that one in regard of those competitions. In the Champions League we have clearly and obviously massively progressed under Rafa, but particularly in the League we have stagnated.

When you consider (which I certainly do anyway) that this is the best team we've had in years, this has been a particularly poor showing in the league this time around. I am though confident, very confident infact, that next year will see us get within that fabled two wins of the title winners and easily close enough at various stages of the season to have us all dreaming of a title win.

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:36 pm

It's not hard to be the best team in years because none of the teams back until the last time we won the league have (duh) won the league so it's merely comparing league placings and cup success. Since Houllier, Evans and Souness didn't win the Champions League, and in fairness it has become easier to qualify which helps, then it would be hard for Rafa not to be viewed as being a bigger success. But in truth Houllier and Evans both managed to finish third and fourth, Houllier managed second, so suggestion that this is the best side we have had in years is not only subjective, but also another duh considering the massive spend. Our side is better but Champions League aside, where you don't have to even be runners-up to qualify, his success has been more plentiful but at a greater cost.

And again comparing Rafa to Houllier, Evans and Souness is like comparing Crouch to Voronin and Bellamy. Not exactly making for difficult comparison, whether you think Crouch is a massive success or a bitter disappointment is down to the individual. Could Crouch do better? I think even his most ardent fans would not dispute he has been no Fernando Torres

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:17 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:There isn't really an argument to be made against the fact that it took Ferguson 7 seasons to win the league (the dismissive 'it's not relevant' statement is as good as it gets for most - without actually explaining how and why it isn't relevant). It is of course absolutely relevant and those reasons have been elaborated upon numerous times.

Excuse me, but why the f.uck is it relevant ?

Its totally irrelavant and has f.uck all to do with LFC, its just a sorry, clutching at straws @rsed excuse.

F.uck it then, if we can play this pathetic game, how long diid it take Wenger, Mourinhio, Dalglish (with blackburn) and Wilkinson (with leeds I think) to win the league ?

ITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOTALLY IRRELAVANT TO LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB !

A great, well thought-out and contructive reply.

The fact that it took Ferguson 7 years to win the title is relevant when evaluating our 'progression' under Rafa and the question of whether he should stay or go, which are essentially the two lines of debate in this thread.

He is the archetype that shows patience can breed success at the highest level, and the similarities between the early years of his time at the Manc's and Rafa's time with us, are notable.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:27 pm

The_Rock wrote:Whats so fickle about being "OK" with rafa staying .....

I wanted him to go when he played crouch as a left forward.

I wanted him to go when he kept playing voronin and kuyt as strikers who can play between lines.....

I wanted him to go when he kept changing the teams something like 75 times in 1st 10 matches (or to that effect).

But now, it seems he has finally seen the light....

He is playing a settled team when possible. And we are getting results. It also doesn't help when he is consistantly doing miracles in europe....

So u see...rafa seems to have learnt his lesson. Fair play to him. So in that case, i have to judge him differently...

Does not take a rocket scientist to figure this....

Jesus.....you have to spell it out for some M0R0NS sometimes....

The same fella who was saying a month or so ago; 'It's over, he has to go, he has to go'?

Having a w@nk every time someone joined your 'Rafa out' list.

To now say 'I hope he stays', seems pretty fickle to me.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:32 pm

so the same people who called for Houllier's head after SIX years and now defending Benitez because it took Ferguso SEVEN years to win a league. So on that theory in 2004/05 had we kept Houllier we'd of been league champions. Silly us for wanting Houllier gone so soon.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:35 pm

I refer you to the above post re. Ferguson.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:48 pm

what the debate you and the rock are having? Sod all to with Benitez getting seven years mate. Might try referring me to another of your pathetic posts.

In relation to the post I've been referred to, I take it fans can't change their mind. I take Sabre can't accept Torres being the best forward in the world right now because at the start of the season he didn't think Torres would hack it. I haven't changed me mind on Benitez. I want him out at the end of the season, champions league winner or not. That's not saying I won't back him and beg for success while he's in charge but I still want him out. He WON'T win the league with Liverpool Football Club and I can't stand us being a cup side. Year after year we look good from March onwards because we only ever have 1 competition to go for.

2004/05 league had gone, out of the FA Cup and the league cup we'd just lost...left just the european cup in which we reached the final and won.
2005/06 out of europe thanks to Benfica, out of the league cup and the league was never going to be achieved...left just the FA Cup which we won.
2006/07 out of the league again. Out of both FA Cup and league cup in January...left just the european cup which we reached the final of.
2007/08 out of the league cup before the new year. out of the fa cup courtasey of Barnsley and out of the league title chase by christmas...leaving just one competition AGAIN.

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