Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Leonmc0708 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:50 pm

JBG wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Still a few games to go, but heres where I see us at:

Three draws that could/should have been wins, (Wigan (h), Man City (a) and Birmingham (h) are three I would suggest where close enough) and a better reflection of the games against United and Chelsea at home (we outplayed both teams by a :censored: mile, would have beaten Chelse but for the ref and should have gotten a draw against United) would yeild us 9 points, whilst deducting one from Chelsea and two from United. The table would then look like this:

                                   P    W   D   L    F   A  GD  Pts
1  Manchester United       34   24   6   4   72 18  53  78
2  Liverpool                     34   22  13  3   60 26  34  75
3  Chelsea                      33   22   7   4   58 23  35  73   
4  Arsenal                       34   20  11  3   64 29  35  71   

These changes in results may well have been by not rotating, although an easier way would be the addition of two TOP QUALITY players would have seen us get those points.

Point being, not as far away as some might have us think.

Hold on, we didn't completely outplay UTD at Anfield. Maybe we had more possession in that game, but we didn't really deserve a win.

I suggested a draw mate.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:51 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
JBG wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Still a few games to go, but heres where I see us at:

Three draws that could/should have been wins, (Wigan (h), Man City (a) and Birmingham (h) are three I would suggest where close enough) and a better reflection of the games against United and Chelsea at home (we outplayed both teams by a :censored: mile, would have beaten Chelse but for the ref and should have gotten a draw against United) would yeild us 9 points, whilst deducting one from Chelsea and two from United. The table would then look like this:

                                   P    W   D   L    F   A  GD  Pts
1  Manchester United       34   24   6   4   72 18  53  78
2  Liverpool                     34   22  13  3   60 26  34  75
3  Chelsea                      33   22   7   4   58 23  35  73   
4  Arsenal                       34   20  11  3   64 29  35  71   

These changes in results may well have been by not rotating, although an easier way would be the addition of two TOP QUALITY players would have seen us get those points.

Point being, not as far away as some might have us think.

point being we drew or lost those games.

I'm sure Derby fans are saying if we won every game we'd of won the league. So what if we "should" of won, the point is we didn't, so we are a long way off. Does that table include United beating Bolton, West Ham and Man City because they "should of won" Does it include Arsenal beating us at Anfield because "they outplayed us and deserved to win". I take it the table doesn't show those results, so it's really pathetic for you to even suggest that.

I bow down to your superior knowledge, and will never post again on the matter.
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Postby Judge » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:55 pm

lakes10 wrote:
Judge wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
Judge wrote:
lakes10 wrote:Sorry but our progression in the Prem under raffa has been negligible. what makes it negligible is that we can still not get into the top 2 and he has not won it( he got the job to win it in 3 or 4 years).

it took ferguson double that to win the league

sorry mate that dont wash with me.
This is new football now with new money.

dont make comparisons with chelsea, and blackburn some years back

you may not have mentioned them, but it is what makes you say what you said.

all things being equal it takes time to built a team capable of winning the league. once established then funding isnt the issue overall. Managers can buy carefully without the need to hurry and spend billions

Liverpool are like a deciduous tree in winter, all we need to do is make it evergreen. in other words put leaves on it, and what d'ya know - a winning combination.

that takes time.

i am right, you are wrong

When GH was got rid of we was told that it was due to him saying that it would take a few more years to win the prem. Rafa was given the job as we needed to win the prem ASAP (TO STOP THE MANC FROM GETTING MORE THAT US).
Rafa has had the time he needs and the money and yet we are still not a top 2 power in the prem.

If the owners at the time could have seen he would not win the prem for 3 years i dont think he would have got the job.

Rafa is the best CL manager there is but his skills in the prem are poor and always will be.

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Postby The Manhattan Project » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:56 pm

Chelsea 1 Wigan 1

That's it. I think Manure have done it.

Amazing. If we keep winning we can close the gap on Arsenal AND Chavsea.

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Postby woof woof ! » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:56 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I bow down to your superior knowledge, and will never post again on the matter.

:laugh:

You say that now but .....................   :D
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Postby kazza » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:02 pm

The Manhattan Project wrote:Chelsea 1 Wigan 1

That's it. I think Manure have done it.

Amazing. If we keep winning we can close the gap on Arsenal AND Chavsea.


Now the only thing Chelsea have to play for is the Champions League. I remember saying the same about Arsenal.  :cool:
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Postby bigmick » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:32 pm

As usual whenever the subject gets around to the manager and "progression", some posters get a bit umpty that anyone dare criticise. A couple of things are certainies in such a debate. Firstly the "do you go to the game" factor will crop up, secondly that before long someone will mention the fact that it took Ferguson a long time to win the Premiership, and thirdly the "we are only a couple of players short" argument will rear its head. I've noticed another one creeping in recently, this "I don't personally buy into the idea that our failure in the league can be solely laid at the door of rotation".

To answer them in order. I don't go to the game but we didn't boss the home match against Man Utd by a long shot. We huffed and puffed but it was men against boys,that is my opinion of course and everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Secondly, nobody can deny it took Ferguson a long time to win the Premiership. I am bound to say though that it didn't take him an age to mount a challenge. This is for me the crux of any debate regarding our so-called progression. We have never ever, not even for an instant mounted any sort of challenge for the Premiership whatsoever under Rafa. We can win European Cups (more on that later), we can go on extended winning runs in the Premiership, we can arguably "boss" games against the top teams, knock them out of FA Cups, Champions Leagues etc etc but we cannot get close enough to even mount a fleeting challenge in the league. It didn't take Ferguson seven years to mount a challenge, I hope it doesn't take Rafa that long either.

The "we are only a couple of players short" is an interesting one. Last season we were "only a twenty goals a season striker" short, as well as "only a bloke who can play down the left" short. Now we've certainly filled one of those berths if not quite the other, but we are still a country mile behind the leaders (and indeed the team which is challenging them, and since you're asking also the team which has fallen by the wayside over this last month). I don't dispute that signing top quality first team-players, not "options" or "possibilities" has to be the priority, but will we this time next season be talking about them needing that first season to adapt and "just watch them go next year". Will we perhaps be talking about the "slight mistake Rafa made in resting our new players after four games, THAT'S where we lost it". Hopefully not.

The last recurring point is the rotation one. The blame not being solely at it's door, "ifithadn'thavebeenforrotation". I don't know where this has come from but it's in a similar category to "YOU CAN'T PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME FFS!". Nobody is saying you can (well with the possible exception of John) and I'm not absolutely sure anybody is saying if it hadn't have been for rotation we would have won the league either. Another urban myth I'm afraid. Clearly we can still beat Pompey away even if Gerrard and Torres are "resting" on the bench, it's not the only reason we didn't win there, or indeed at home against Brirmingham ("But Torres started against Porto away and we didn't win there either" yes I know) but equally clearly, your chances of winning both games significantly increase if your best players are actually on the pitch. You don't fail to win JUST because of rotation, but I would venture that in those two circumstances it was a fairly major factor.

So how far have we progressed? Well clearly we are a much better team than the one which won the Champions League, and most probably at least the equal of the team that ran on through beaten horses to get within nine points of the Champions a couple of years back. If Man Utd win at Chelsea and effectively seal their League win, we may yet get the chance to do the same this season although within nine points might be stretching it a bit. Unlike many though, i think we are currently a fair way short of a league win, not just in the players (as our spine is indeed very good) but more pertinantly in the attitude, the ethos and the outlook of the team and manager.

Ditching at long last and once and for all the silliness of Rafa style is obviously (well obvious to me anyway) step one in allowing ourselves to mount a challenge. It maybe a coincidence that we've suddenly started to turn in results which would be Championship form over the last six weeks while we've settled on a formation and team, but then again maybe it isn't. It maybe a coincidence that in that period we had one awful performance, but we managed to instantly bounce back from it unlike our extended bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips earlier in the season. Our consistency and our ability to go and get points at the grounds of the bigger teams maybe just coincidence, but then again maybe it isn't. My suspicion is that it isn't a coincidence, and please God we have finally, eventually learnt our lesson.

Step two (and I agree with the posters who have said so) is that we need a couple of top-class players. Yes to improve the first team, but also to cover for injuries. We've been lucky with injuries this season, with neither of our best players sustaining them. God only knows where we would be if our star striker had fecked off to play in the African Nations, or our goalkeeper had been out twice, our captain and central defensive lynchpin had been injured, etc etc. So we need to buy, buy well and big. Buy selectively, no more "options" and "possibilities".


And what of the Champions League? Well we're definately successful in that, and all of us enjoy the huge nights which go down in the clubs history. To get in it, you need to finsih in the top four. Under rafa if we discount the first season as it wasn't his team (even though he took the plaudits for winning the Champions League with it and rightly so) we have made the Champions League every year. I'm bound to say though that we ought to as well really. We're competing for fourth this season with a team who have a transfer budget which is probably about a quarter of ours, and who are frankly a very ordinary side so we really oght to be able to get in the thing every season. Then we go into a group situation where you can afford a couple fo dodgy results, but as long as you win a couple of Home games and pick up around nine or so points in six games against teams which finsihed in the top couple in Holland, Turkey, Greece, Portugal etc etc you go through to the knockout stage. All four of the English teams made it through this year, and so they should. You're then in the last sixteen, and you need to win three home/away aggregate games and a final in order to be successful. It's no coincidence that three of the four teams who made the semis last season are in there again this season. Chelsea just about always get there, we usually do and the mance do too. Arsenal made the final a couple of years back and the competition really is becoming a jamboree for the English clubs with the big squads and big money. To get to the semi we had to beat Inter, who lead a substandard Italian League and Arsenal, which was a good achievement. Chelsea had to overcome Fenerbace, Turkeys finest and Man Utd had to surpass Roma, a mid table Italian outfit. I know I'll get absolutely slaughtered for this, but it just doesn't compensate in my eyes anyway for continual abject failure in the league. Exciting yes, but this team and this manager need to win the league.

Next season I don't think we can win it, as we haven't got a platform. I think winning the league is a bit like climbing Everest, you've got to get your base camp set up, and then move on from there. What we absolutely must do though, is launch some sort of challenge. The players havew to be close enough to feel that pressure, that pressure that says you HAVE to get a result or you'll lose ground. that pressure that makes you throw men forward when it's 1-1 with ten minutes left, because you know nothing less than a win will do. Failure to mount any type of challenge, or a reversal into the depths of Rafa style and the time would be up for me.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:41 pm

Why is it always about scoring points and catogorising everyone on this forum, it wrecks my fuc.king head the constant power struggle. Sometimes people will call it right, and sometimes they will call it wrong. sometimes peoples opinion will be correct sometimes it wont. It can however be mutually exclusive from the thing they thought six months ago, wether they are pro or anti the manager (I mean how the :censored: can you be anti the manager of the team you support if they are not losing every game for fuc.ks sake) or if they beleive that rotation, (even if it never existed in the first place ala Torres in the league) was good or bad.

Can someone not make a statement without people wanting to discuss other statements, where they lie on this that and the other, and finally what camp they are in on this matter before accepting its validity ?

Can you be none commital on here ?

IF you disagree with one view point, does that mean you are autoomatically another ?

I dont beleive women get a bad deal, so am I a sexist ? I dont like Robertons Jam so am I a racist ?
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Postby glenbuck patriot » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:49 pm

Women get a sh@t deal according to my other half and i'm left with Sainbury's Jam, no gollywog on the front, so i'm with you on this one Leon!
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Postby Ciggy » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:49 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont beleive women get a bad deal, so am I a sexist ?

Yer you are Tiny   :glare:







































:D
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Postby jonnymac1979 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:50 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Why is it always about scoring points and catogorising everyone on this forum, it wrecks my fuc.king head the constant power struggle. Sometimes people will call it right, and sometimes they will call it wrong. sometimes peoples opinion will be correct sometimes it wont. It can however be mutually exclusive from the thing they thought six months ago, wether they are pro or anti the manager (I mean how the :censored: can you be anti the manager of the team you support if they are not losing every game for fuc.ks sake) or if they beleive that rotation, (even if it never existed in the first place ala Torres in the league) was good or bad.

Can someone not make a statement without people wanting to discuss other statements, where they lie on this that and the other, and finally what camp they are in on this matter before accepting its validity ?

Can you be none commital on here ?

IF you disagree with one view point, does that mean you are autoomatically another ?

I dont beleive women get a bad deal, so am I a sexist ? I dont like Robertons Jam so am I a racist ?

You want answers?

Leonmc0708 wrote:I think I'm entitled to them...


You WANT answers?

Leonmc0708 wrote:I WANT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!


YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!
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Postby red37 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:52 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont like Robertons Jam so am I a racist ?

F*ckin' Marmalade-ist!
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Postby woof woof ! » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:52 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont like Robertons Jam so am I a racist ?

Guess that depends on your reasons for not liking Robertsons Jam.

Robertson's issued golly badges for keen jam eaters who collected enough of the tokens, which picture the jam maker's spokescharacter in various roles, from a  golfer to  Father Christmas.
There was even a historic moments series featuring a golly on a space hopper.

Maybe you don't like space hoppers , in which case (imo) ,you're not a racist.

:D
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Postby Ciggy » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:55 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont like Robertons Jam so am I a racist ?

Guess that depends on your reasons for not liking Robertsons Jam.

Robertson's issued golly badges for keen jam eaters who collected enough of the tokens, which picture the jam maker's spokescharacter in various roles, from a  golfer to  Father Christmas.
There was even a historic moments series featuring a golly on a space hopper.

Maybe you don't like space hoppers , in which case (imo) ,you're not a racist.

:D

:D Ha space hopper  :laugh:
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Postby bigmick » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:58 pm

I'm not sure I really understand your point Leon to be totally honest, and if your post is actually not referring to mine then I apologise in advance of this one.

As I don't do that thing where you quote selectively from a number of different posters (because I don''t actually know how to do it if I'm honest) I tried to give an opinion on the various different things which have cropped up on the thread. I started with your "do you go to the game?" question to Lakes, I forget who brought up Ferguson not winning the League for seven years but somebody definately did, a couple of posters mentioned the "we need a couple more players" which while being obviously true is soimething all of us if we're honest have been saying for the last fifteen years or so, and as for the rotation Bob and LFC 2007 had both made the point about it not being the ONLY reason for our failures so I gave an opinion on that as well.

I don't know about any "power struggle", I just have my opinions and I voice em. Some of them over time are proven to be total b0ll0cks and I like to think I'm one of the posters on here who is quite happy to admit so, and some of them are sometimes proven to not that far off. As for supporting the manager, of course I do support him and think that broadly he ahs done a good job. I don't agree with those who bestow God like status upon his shoulders or compare him to our great managers of the past, but I think he's broadly speaking done a good job. It's strange to me though why people get so animated on the forum. I never ever attack somebody because they think the manager is the best thing since sliced bread, I don't attack people if they don't agree with me about a certain player, a system, rotation or whatever else it is.

I've just put an opinion out there. Sometimes it's controversial, no doubt many will totally disagree with my opinion on the Champions League and its relative importance, but there you go that's what forums are for.
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