Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:25 pm

How far have we progressed? Well we're no closer to winning the league, but we've come on leaps and bounds in the champions league. So I suppose if we're a club who's happy being a cup team then we're doing quite well 4 major cup finals with the possibility of a fifth this seaon. Problem is we've only won two of these four finals, whereas under Houllier we were in 4 major cup finals and won all four, so in terms of number of trophies we haven't progressed. If you want us to be a side challenging for the league, then we certainly haven't progressed. We're still a million miles off winning the league and the gap between ourselves and United is getting bigger every year. Maybe not in terms of points, but in terms of ability against one another it's a massive gulf. We've closed the gap on Arsenal and Chelsea hence why we managed four draws in the league against them this season, but United again proved that we're nowhere near them in terms of quality and consistancy.

However we have progressed in certain areas. We have better indiviuals in most positions than we did under Houllier. We've obviously progressed in the champions league under Benitez and even though we're still dull to watch at times, we are more entertaining than we were under Houllier.

Overall though, we haven't progressed any great extent. We're still no closer to winning the league. We're still as inconsistant and we're still waiting for the next great player to come through the youth system. So I don't believe we've progressed as far if any as others

by **woof woof !** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:40 pm

s@int wrote:The backbone of the team is as strong as any in the premiership in my opinion, but the wide areas are probably as weak now as they were when Rafa came.

Babel has been inconsistant (being kind), Pennant , Benayoun and Riise have been certainly below the standard necessary for Title winning wide players while Kuyt has been a decent stopgap at best. Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio have been adequate defensively but hugely disappointing as any sort of attacking threat.

Agree with almost all of that Saint, but don't agree with you assesment of Arbeloa and Aurelio.
Now that Arbeloa is finally being played in his best position (right back) and Aurelio is actually getting more than one game before he's rested again I think our full back position is looking quite promising. I know many question the defensive capabilities of our full backs but I'm of the opinion that defensively they are as good as any other full back pairing in the prem and far more skilled on the ball than any of their contemporaries. Both of them get forward at every opportunity and are capable of delivering more than a decent cross. Arbeloa may not have much more to offer than that which we've already seen but I think Aurelio has got loads more in his locker and given the chance (i.e Rafa gives him an extended run) next season he'll prove it.

For me Rafa's biggest failing in his attempt to construct a truly great side has been his inability since he joined us to really fill our left and wide right positions with the kind of quality that we have in other area's. Despite all his skill I'm not convinced that Babel is the answer on our left and our wide right position is probably even weaker than it was when Rafa arrived.

In Rafa's shoes I wouldn't bother looking at any other signings other than those for the RM and LM positions, sort them out and the premiership title could finally be on the cards.

by **hello_red** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:45 pm

I agree with Kazza and Leonmc0708.

We are closer than people think, or want to believe. Its a myth that he dosnt care about the prem, much like the myth about us being defensive. People see what they want to see, call me rose tinted all you like but I can see where this club is going and bar the boardroom antics we are close, I can almost smell it.

And about what Ciggy said about Rafa walking, take this into consideration it is common knowledge that the boardroom is a shambles at the minute so why would Rafa walk, yes his position has been challenged but if the hierarchy are clueless as we can see then Rafa will see it aswell and ride the storm IMO.

by **Thingy** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:45 pm

Progressed well in some areas, gone backwards in others. When Rafa came he already had Gerrard, arguably the best or potentiallly the best in the world in his position, along with Carra. Maybe at the time not as good as they have been since Rafa was here but still the quality was there. So he had a decent platform to build on. The rest of the squad was mediocre bar a few players, Owen being one of them. We still had Sami, Finnan,Riise, and a few others who where good enough, the rest who stayed where garbage. So on that basis first season he could not of been expected realistically to win the league, even with Gerrard Carra, with Alonso and Garcia coming in too, he did well winning the CL. Progression yeah, but not enough I dont think, people thought it cos of the CL win. Since then weve had an amazing FA cup win, and we lost in the final of the CL last year, so in cups, were great. In the league? Not so. Havent had a title challenge to actually call a real, close up until the end challenge. Weve been out of it by New year alot of the time. So have we progressed in the league? Marginally. Not enough, and not enough as everyone would like or expect.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:20 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
s@int wrote:The backbone of the team is as strong as any in the premiership in my opinion, but the wide areas are probably as weak now as they were when Rafa came.

Babel has been inconsistant (being kind), Pennant , Benayoun and Riise have been certainly below the standard necessary for Title winning wide players while Kuyt has been a decent stopgap at best. Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio have been adequate defensively but hugely disappointing as any sort of attacking threat.

Agree with almost all of that Saint, but don't agree with you assesment of Arbeloa and Aurelio.
Now that Arbeloa is finally being played in his best position (right back) and Aurelio is actually getting more than one game before he's rested again I think our full back position is looking quite promising. I know many question the defensive capabilities of our full backs but I'm of the opinion that defensively they are as good as any other full back pairing in the prem and far more skilled on the ball than any of their contemporaries. Both of them get forward at every opportunity and are capable of delivering more than a decent cross. Arbeloa may not have much more to offer than that which we've already seen but I think Aurelio has got loads more in his locker and given the chance (i.e Rafa gives him an extended run) next season he'll prove it.

For me Rafa's biggest failing in his attempt to construct a truly great side has been his inability since he joined us to really fill our left and wide right positions with the kind of quality that we have in other area's. Despite all his skill I'm not convinced that Babel is the answer on our left and our wide right position is probably even weaker than it was when Rafa arrived.

In Rafa's shoes I wouldn't bother looking at any other signings other than those for the RM and LM positions, sort them out and the premiership title could finally be on the cards.

Not too sure about their respective attacking prowess myself mate. I think it shows what we have been missing from an attacking point of view, when Carra (not noted for his attacking flare) was probably the best attacking fullback we have seen this season against Arsenal.

Aurelio has been hampered by injuries, so maybe he has more to offer, but I would be just as happy with Riise( who's having a bad season) which says a lot.

Compare Aurelio to Evra or Clichy, even Cole or Bridge and I think you may see the difference.

Arbeloa is a different type of player, he doesn't go down the wing putting in crosses, but cuts inside more often than not and tries to link up play. Certainly not as good as Finnan was but maybe better than Finnan is?

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:26 pm

cpc4eva wrote:FFS

having only lost 4 games all season so far the same as manure is progression

cl semi final once again - 3 in 4 years is progression

not being 21 points behind the overall leaders is progression

rafa being able to keep us in a cl spot for next season while he gets openly back stabbed is progression

rafa knows we are lacking in defence and im sure he will rectify this properly

skertel has been solid so far and now hypia staying on with carra our defence is becoming feared as it should be...

weve got a good list of players coming through the reserves and u18s so that is progression aswell

rafa stopping his every game rotation is progression

rafa acting ahead of the transfer window starting is progression - im dying to know who the 3 players he has already signed up will be

not getting thumped by arsenal like this happened below is progression

2006/11/12 Arsenal 3 - 0 Liverpool
2006/12/19 Liverpool 0 - 0 Arsenal
2007/01/06 Liverpool 1 - 3 Arsenal
2007/01/09 Liverpool 3 - 6 Arsenal

our worst defeat this year 3-0 by manure and it was so shonky just like gay ronaldos penalty given over arsenal at the weekend...

being able to do this with a 30million interest repayment hanging over the club - thanks for the debt and bad memories hicks and gillett

being able to do this with no 80,000 plus stadium and no 20,000 plus kop stand being built is progression

being able to do this without the 100s of millions chelsea have spent for back to back premerships but no cl success is progression

We must keep rafa

We must get rid of hicks, gillett, parry, moores

top post mate...

the sooner all those narrow-minded fans see the same way you do the better...

by **LFC2007** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:27 pm

First of all our progress as a team is entirely relative to our competitors. Whilst I feel the team we have now is stronger than in previous seasons, the same key areas are holding us back - the wings/attack, full backs and the quality we have in other areas cannot compensate for that - for example - having a very good CM and an equally very good winger is better than having the world's best CM and having a very average winger. The quality of the CM cannot compensate for the inadequacies of the winger - because the position (in our current phase of development) is so fundamental to breaking teams down. For all the quality we have in the centre, and the massive impact Torres has made, we rely primarily on our wingers and our full backs to create and stretch teams when we're up against sides whose sole intent is to defend. When people say they view our squad as good as Chelsea's, I can't agree in that they possess a bit more quality in these *key areas - Joe Cole, SW-P, Kalou, Belletti, Ashley cole, are improvements upon those in the same positions in our side. The fact that we have Gerrard, who is better than any of their CM players cannot compensate for these weaknesses - because football is a team game. You're only as strong as your weakest point, and whereas we have a few very strong areas we also have a few (relatively) very weak areas. Chelsea and the Manc's have a broader array of quality in each position, rather than this concentration of quality in one or two areas which we have. That's a telling difference IMO. FWIW, I don't think we're miles behind, but the Manc's have raised the bar and to keep up will take at least two top quality players (in these key areas) this summer IMO, hence why all this off-the-field commotion is very worrying. It's a massive summer.

* Obviously every position is key, but key in the sense that seeing as we've mastered the defensive side of the game to a high-enough standard, we're in a position where our attacking personnel are key to our progress - because our level of quality in these areas will determine whether or not we can break teams down and create enough to put games to bed.

N.B. - based on the premise that quality in key areas is a predominant reason for our inability to challenge for the title this season - I do not subscribe to 'ifithadn'tbeenforrotation'.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:35 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:We've closed the gap on Arsenal and Chelsea hence why we managed four draws in the league against them this season, but United again proved that we're nowhere near them in terms of quality and consistancy.

I wonder why? perhaps it is because they spent about 70 million adding anderson, nani, hargreaves and tevez to a team that already won the league last year? hmmmm... money is not a good excuse eh?

... just kidding gbjh

anyway I think we have progressed it's just that our rivals are not standing still... IMO the next step of reinforcement to our team which probably will make up of more quality wingers and full backs will see us up there challenging... we might not win it next season but perhaps top 2 position is a real possibility...

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:38 pm

LFC2007 wrote:First of all our progress as a team is entirely relative to our competitors. Whilst I feel the team we have now is stronger than in previous seasons, the same key areas are holding us back - the wings/attack, full backs and the quality we have in other areas cannot compensate for that - for example - having a very good CM and an equally very good winger is better than having the world's best CM and having a very average winger. The quality of the CM cannot compensate for the inadequacies of the winger - because the position (in our current phase of development) is so fundamental to breaking teams down. For all the quality we have in the centre, and the massive impact Torres has made, we rely primarily on our wingers and our full backs to create and stretch teams when we're up against sides whose sole intent is to defend. When people say they view our squad as good as Chelsea's, I can't agree in that they possess a bit more quality in these *key areas - Joe Cole, SW-P, Kalou, Belletti, Ashley cole, are improvements upon those in the same positions in our side. The fact that we have Gerrard, who is better than any of their CM players cannot compensate for these weaknesses - because football is a team game. You're only as strong as your weakest point, and whereas we have a few very strong areas we also have a few (relatively) very weak areas. Chelsea and the Manc's have a broader array of quality in each position, rather than this concentration of quality in one or two areas which we have. That's a telling difference IMO. FWIW, I don't think we're miles behind, but the Manc's have raised the bar and to keep up will take at least two top quality players (in these key areas) this summer IMO, hence why all this off-the-field commotion is very worrying. It's a massive summer.

* Obviously every position is key, but key in the sense that seeing as we've mastered the defensive side of the game to a high-enough standard, we're in a position where our attacking personnel are key to our progress - because our level of quality in these areas will determine whether or not we can break teams down and create enough to put games to bed.

N.B. - based on the premise that quality in key areas is a predominant reason for our inability to challenge for the title this season - I do not subscribe to 'ifithadn'tbeenforrotation'.

spot on... for what it's worth rafa MUST look at strengthening our weak areas now which are the wingers, fullbacks and a second striker...

by **cpc4eva** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:30 pm

maguskwt wrote:we might not win it next season but perhaps top 2 position is a real possibility...

so wats ur solution........

to come 1st in the league should we lose in our 1st rounds and dont participate in any of the cups

the money carrot especially for cl is toooo attractive.

its not the liverpool way

we go out on the pitch to play to win

to win the league and to win the cups

to spend wisely and get quality before any one else we were always ahead of the pack in that regard

rafa got the jump on the others signing torres and he must now do the same again as this season comes to an end

and it looks like he may have done so with the statement of already signing up 3 players one for starting 11 and 2 more quality youngsters at the end of the season - im sooooo anxious to know who they are...

phil thompson reckons we could have signed gay boy ronaldo ( i dont care who he plays for even if it was for us he would still be a gay boy) for 4-5 million and then manure beat us and signed him up for 12million what the hell stopped us from signing him b4 manure i ask you

?

by **Avi Cohen** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:14 pm

I have been part of the anti-Rafa brigade for some time, but I took a step back to think about the progress he's made with Liverpool. I actually thought of Gerrard and how he was supposed to :censored:

off at the end of 2005. That season, I'd say Gerrard looked around the team and said to himself that he was the only player with true international class.

Can he say that now?

I think that's the progress Rafa has made and I think Gerrard knows it.

by **duk** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:36 pm

How far have we progressed? Well we're no closer to winning the league,

bo-lax my friend

we've lost the same number as th mancs this season, too many draws but we aint losin very often

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:55 pm

stmichael wrote:yeah we essentially lost it in a five game period around the turn of the new year for me. we were well in the mix but then dropped too many points:

man city (a) drew 0-0
wigan (h) drew 1-1
middlesbrough (a) drew 1-1
aston villa (h) drew 2-2
west ham (a) lost 1-0

we battered man city and should have won, conceded a daft goal to wigan, played poorly at boro, battered villa and somehow contrived to concede two daft goals and were poor at west ham.

Definitely a bad period for us, that, St. Mike. What's interesting is how we've improved since that loss at West Ham: 11 wins, 3 draws and 2 defeats in all competitions since the start of February. The losses include the misstep against Barnsley and the terrible day at the office at Old Trafford. The draws are all creditable results away to Chelsea and Arsenal (twice). The wins include victories over some top teams (Inter, Arsenal) but also victories over several potential bogey teams (Bolton, Middlesbrough, Everton, Newcastle, Reading, West Ham, Blackburn). Barnsley aside, we've not lost at home in that period and we've largely been scoring for fun (+17 goal differential).

So, what does this period tell us? To me, it says that we're back on the right track. The match at Old Trafford aside, we're doing what we need to do against our Big Four rivals: taking points. Away draws are great results at Stamford Bridge and Emirates. If we can repeat that trick next season while adding a couple of home wins to the equation, we're in business in those crucial head-to-head match ups. I'm more impressed, however, with our killer instinct against the likes of Bolton, Boro, Blackburn and the Bitters. These are precisely the kinds of teams we squander our title challenge against, particularly when we still have European matches on the dance card. In the past 2.5 months, however, we've dispatched these sorts of teams with relative ease. Arguably, winning the title has more to do with how you go against these sorts of teams than it does with your record on "Super Sundays." We now look more than capable of putting limited but obstinate teams to the sword while also showing an ability to go toe to toe with the other big boys. That to me is progress.

Just as crucially, we've largely stuck to a settled side and formation (4-2-3-1) in this period, with Rafa resting key players in sensible numbers at sensible times. And, despite the oft-voiced suggestion that Rafa only cares about the Champions League, he's shown a remarkable willingness to select strong teams for league games both before and after European clashes. Yesterday's team sheet is a great example: arguably his strongest team played following a big, big match midweek. His selection for the league match against Arsenal was the only instance of late where he fielded a palpably weaker side and the lads still managed to get a result. I've expressed--and still feel--a fair amount of doubt this season that rotation is the only reason our title challenge collapsed but I will acknowledge that our great form over the last couple of months has something important to do with the current stable selection policy. I think that Rafa has hit on the right balance now and I hope he will look to preserve that at the start of next season.

So, after a very dismal period at the start of 2008 where we looked to be a club in freefall both on and off the pitch--I'm very much heartened by the turnaround since the West Ham match St. Mike earmarked. Taken as whole, this season still disappoints but all the signs are there that next season will prove to be much more promising. Provided, of course, that the backroom shenanigans get sorted ASAP.

by **MR C** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:57 pm

i've decided to look at things differently after not really being a rafa fan.

lets rack up as many champions league finals as possible while the going is good.
then later get a guy who can win the league.

we can win the league under rafa but people will say we were lucky,and want us to dominate.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:01 pm

cpc4eva wrote:
maguskwt wrote:we might not win it next season but perhaps top 2 position is a real possibility...

so wats ur solution........

to come 1st in the league should we lose in our 1st rounds and dont participate in any of the cups

the money carrot especially for cl is toooo attractive.

its not the liverpool way

we go out on the pitch to play to win

to win the league and to win the cups

to spend wisely and get quality before any one else we were always ahead of the pack in that regard

rafa got the jump on the others signing torres and he must now do the same again as this season comes to an end

and it looks like he may have done so with the statement of already signing up 3 players one for starting 11 and 2 more quality youngsters at the end of the season - im sooooo anxious to know who they are...

phil thompson reckons we could have signed gay boy ronaldo ( i dont care who he plays for even if it was for us he would still be a gay boy) for 4-5 million and then manure beat us and signed him up for 12million what the hell stopped us from signing him b4 manure i ask you ? ?

Phil Thompson went over to Portugal to watch Ronaldo and was reported to have said, " he is not what we are looking for."

Admittedly at the time we were looking for first team players not players with potential, but even so.......

The mancs then failed in their bid to sign Ronaldhino and switched targets, the price rocketed and we lost interest.

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