Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:43 pm

IMHO whilst he´s a great lad having a lot of fun and scoring some key goals, before you mention him in the same breath as KK, Kenny, Rush and Fowler, he´s got to produce the goods week in, week out for at least another couple of seasons.

I want the lad to be better than all the above, but realistically you cant make that call yet.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:01 am

destro wrote:A quick question, does anyone think that Torres goes down to easily and complains to much ?

I am always bias towards Liverpool when ever I discuss them in work but today a lot of the lads I work with ( United fans ) were saying how he is a great player but lately he has taken to falling over to easily and complaining a lot.

A Liverpool F.C discussion board is probably not the ideal place to ask such a question but, putting the rose tinted specs to one side for a minute does anyone else think that a darker side is creeping in to his game. I remember him saying how Gerrard had said he doesn't approve of players falling over and that he frowns upon it so it seems strange that he is being accused of doing it, the tabloids have also started to mention it.

I have seen many games this season where he has been kicked off the park ( Reading sticks out ) and just seemed to relish the physical side of it, I haven't personally noticed him going to ground easily or maybe I have and just refuse to admit.

Basically is it a case of jealousy from other fans and the usual rubbish from the press or is there something in it ?

There was an instance early in the match where Flamini (if memory serves) clipped him near the edge of their box. Torres did his utmost to keep his feet and carry on but his momentum took him down. So, no, he doesn't always take the easy option and go to ground. But, I think he is savvy enough to know that, at times, he's isolated with multiple defenders between him and goal. On those occasions I think he plays for the foul but so, of course, does Ronaldo, Rooney, Adebayor and every other top footballer you might care to name. Opposing fans hate it but their own beloved stars do it just as much and, really, it's just part of the game.

As for complaining, I think there are times when he feels like a bit more protection is in order. Senderos took him out good and proper at one point yesterday and no card. Given the kicking and elbowing he routinely gets from even so-called 'cultured' defenders (obviously the scouting report is out: rough Torres up), I'm not surprised he cuts a rather irritated figure on occasion.

by **stmichael** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:39 am

torres looked completely knackered to me the other night.

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:32 am

stmichael wrote:torres looked completely knackered to me the other night.

Whatchoo talkin' bout Willis?

Have you forgotten that he was rested six months ago in two consecutive league games? I know he came on for the last half hour of each game, but if you consider that he would have played a full match in both, that's two hours of football he's missed out on. Surely your not trying to tell us now that he wouldn't be able to feel the effect of all that rest six months later? This is precisely what the delayed gazelle was designed for, because "trophies aren't won and lost in first few weeks of the season, you need your players fresh at the end of the season".

Total load of b0ll0cks I know but that was the theory anyway

BTW, Torres looks like he desperately needs a rest i agree with you Mick, and I've no doubt he'll get it on Saturday.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:39 am

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:torres looked completely knackered to me the other night.

Whatchoo talkin' bout Willis? Have you forgotten that he was rested six months ago in two consecutive league games? I know he came on for the last half hour of each game, but if you consider that he would have played a full match in both, that's two hours of football he's missed out on. Surely your not trying to tell us now that he wouldn't be able to feel the effect of all that rest six months later? This is precisely what the delayed gazelle was designed for, because "trophies aren't won and lost in first few weeks of the season, you need your players fresh at the end of the season".

Total load of b0ll0cks I know but that was the theory anyway BTW, Torres looks like he desperately needs a rest i agree with you Mick, and I've no doubt he'll get it on Saturday.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:04 am

Ferguson's clearly not averse to a bit of "Rafa styling" ala the "Delayed Gazelle theory", having rested Ronaldo for two league games, one which they lost. Ronaldo's looked exceedingly tired of late, just the six in six.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:21 am

oh come on now... why does he need a rest? he shouldn't. he's been scoring goals and enjoying his football here according to himself. And a footballer doing that doesn't need a rest unless he plays 2 games in a week for several weeks. My take is that he was fustrated. He was fustrated about not getting protected. He was fustrated about the rough treatments. He was fustrated that he was being isolated upfront. It seems like ever since he had this cosecutive scoring, streak defenders are all out to fustrate him just like bob said. And in order for him to take the next step to greatness he needs to know how to handle that. he seems to get fustrated easily when things don't go his way... and i think that that is his major weakness. I've seen that kinda body language on him a couple times now. Remember in one game (I forgot who it was against ) he was so angry that he went straight to the tunnel without shaking any hands at the end of the game. Then in the man U game and now with arsenal he showed his fustrations again. I might be wrong but shades of the aspect of torres that I don't like might be creeping up again... which is getting disappointed too easily and letting it affect his game... I've seen it during an england-spain friendly years ago... he was so red-faced and fustrated that the england defenders gave him the rough treatment that raul had to console him...

I wonder what Sabre thinks about this... I haven't really watched torres ins Spain so don't really know his attitude track record...

edited: either that or he wasn't feeling too well... or he had a major argument with his girl... now that can affect everything you do...

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:04 am

LFC2007 wrote:Ferguson's clearly not averse to a bit of "Rafa styling" ala the "Delayed Gazelle theory", having rested Ronaldo for two league games, one which they lost. Ronaldo's looked exceedingly tired of late, just the six in six.

No I'll give you that LFC, Ferguson has been doing plenty of "styling" himself, particularly since Christmas. Funnily enough though not only is it not surprising, some of us actually predicted such a thing would happen about four months ago.

Feguson's method it seems to me is to play largely a settled team and formation until his team have well and truly got some momentum going (they even kept largely the same team for the Champions League group games as I remember), before rotating around Christmas and then fairly frequently throughout January and February. I think the idea seems to be to give the players a mid season break (he has even been known to sanction the players going on holiday mid season, both on an individual basis and as a squad, a la the World Club Championship). He then tends to settle it down around March time for the big push towards honours. I would be fairly surprised for example if Ronaldo sits many matches out at the moment, save perhaps for the Home game with Roma, that is until of course they've won the Premiership again.

His method wouldn't be my chosen one either TBPH. I will say this though, it does have at least a modicum of logic about it. Unlike of course the "delayed gazelle" theory which says that if you rest a bloke for two hours in September when the seasons barely got started, he'll store up that lack of effort and miraculously be able to produce it six months later. Torres of course compounded the whole notion by getting himself injured within days of being rested (he did at least though do us all the favour of disproving those silly ideas which were beginning to make their way onto the forum about "resting' preventing injuries). Fergusons method is different in that I can actually see the sense in it.

The other glaring difference of course and probably even more obvious than the one I've mentioned, is that fergusons method has been proven to work over the years in England. By direct contrast, "Rafa-styling" has never worked in the English premiership in four seasons. Thankfully it seems the manager is belatedly giving up on the whole idea, and it's not before time to be frank.

Just one last thing since it's you LFC I'm debating with at the moment, there seems no better time to chalk up a line in the sand regarding the "LFC factor", (for those unfamiliar with it it's where a teams final position and points total is distorted by them "giving up on the league" in the last few games, or "running on through beaten horses"). I think we're currently fourteen points or so behind the league leaders, and it's worth noting that up unto this point we've been trying our best in the league. I'd hate for us to field a reserve team in the Premiership on Saturday and eventually finish eighteen points back, only to be told by all the "pro's" that our situation was nowhere near as bad until we started playing a weakened team. Just so's everyone knows where the line in the sand is before we start arguing about it :;):

by **maguskwt** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:57 am

it is absolutely without a doubt that the line in the sand cannot be anywhere other than in the sand...

by **Owzat** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:18 am

Maybe Torres doesn't need a rest, but playing three games in a week will tire any player if he is to give his all and since Torres and Gerrard do a lot of our scoring it's probably best they're at peak fitness - or as close as possible to - for Tuesday. Besides, the more minutes Torres plays means the more risk there is of those sly kicks and fouls that defenders give him will result in injury. The popular myth going round at the moment is he goes down easily and it will soon become a diving reputation, the push to 'expose' Torres seems to be on the increase. Since he never scored any of his 28 goals from these supposed 'dives' I don't know why they're even going there, he doesn't buy free kicks any more than any other striker and he has a pretty good record of scoring in and around the box so why would he?

But as I say, the key reasons for giving him a rest are to keep him away from injury if possible and the fewer games he plays the fresher he will be. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't play most games, only that if we can rest him from playing three in a week then we should. And since we're not title challengers there's no real cause for him to play absolutely every game, unless the bitters do get in a position that we need to win. We need to win on Tuesday, we're five points clear of the bitters in the league and could lose at Arsenal anyway so why risk Torres on the offchance our strongest side does what previous strongest sides haven't done under Rafa? ie pick up a point at Arsenal

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:50 am

maybe all this healthy diet is not as good as its cracked up to be, lets back to meat pies and fish and chips and nights on the ale, they managed to play 60 games a season like that without injury despite wearing no shin pads.

players now are soft

by **Judge** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:10 am

indeed, look at ronaldo

a small breeze can send him on his ar'se

by **Owzat** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:24 am

The kid is so petulant though, I didn't watch all of the roma game but bits I did see had little girl ronaldo gesticulating at every decision didn't go his way. It's hard to like a skilled player who falls over at any/no contact and then has a hissy fit when the decision doesn't go his way.

Professional snooker players have a table at home to practice, dart players have a board and so does Ronaldo - but not a dartboard, a diving board

by **LFC2007** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:49 pm

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Ferguson's clearly not averse to a bit of "Rafa styling" ala the "Delayed Gazelle theory", having rested Ronaldo for two league games, one which they lost. Ronaldo's looked exceedingly tired of late, just the six in six.

No I'll give you that LFC, Ferguson has been doing plenty of "styling" himself, particularly since Christmas. Funnily enough though not only is it not surprising, some of us actually predicted such a thing would happen about four months ago.

Feguson's method it seems to me is to play largely a settled team and formation until his team have well and truly got some momentum going (they even kept largely the same team for the Champions League group games as I remember), before rotating around Christmas and then fairly frequently throughout January and February. I think the idea seems to be to give the players a mid season break (he has even been known to sanction the players going on holiday mid season, both on an individual basis and as a squad, a la the World Club Championship). He then tends to settle it down around March time for the big push towards honours. I would be fairly surprised for example if Ronaldo sits many matches out at the moment, save perhaps for the Home game with Roma, that is until of course they've won the Premiership again.

His method wouldn't be my chosen one either TBPH. I will say this though, it does have at least a modicum of logic about it. Unlike of course the "delayed gazelle" theory which says that if you rest a bloke for two hours in September when the seasons barely got started, he'll store up that lack of effort and miraculously be able to produce it six months later. Torres of course compounded the whole notion by getting himself injured within days of being rested (he did at least though do us all the favour of disproving those silly ideas which were beginning to make their way onto the forum about "resting' preventing injuries). Fergusons method is different in that I can actually see the sense in it.

The other glaring difference of course and probably even more obvious than the one I've mentioned, is that fergusons method has been proven to work over the years in England. By direct contrast, "Rafa-styling" has never worked in the English premiership in four seasons. Thankfully it seems the manager is belatedly giving up on the whole idea, and it's not before time to be frank.

Just one last thing since it's you LFC I'm debating with at the moment, there seems no better time to chalk up a line in the sand regarding the "LFC factor", (for those unfamiliar with it it's where a teams final position and points total is distorted by them "giving up on the league" in the last few games, or "running on through beaten horses"). I think we're currently fourteen points or so behind the league leaders, and it's worth noting that up unto this point we've been trying our best in the league. I'd hate for us to field a reserve team in the Premiership on Saturday and eventually finish eighteen points back, only to be told by all the "pro's" that our situation was nowhere near as bad until we started playing a weakened team. Just so's everyone knows where the line in the sand is before we start arguing about it

Well, Ronaldo was rested for the Bolton game in November, before which they were level on points with Arsenal, though Arsenal had a game in hand. After, they were three behind with Arsenal still having this game in hand to go. At a crucial point in the season, where Arsenal could've amounted a substantial lead, his decision to leave Ronaldo out wasn't and isn't questioned (modicum of logic?, sense?), yet Rafa's still subjected to these little digs for resting Torres. The decision Ferguson took isn't questioned, but it could've been had Arsenal managed sustained form.

The whole premise of your argument is we would have challenged for the title but for Rafa's rotation policy (EVERYTHING you say re rotation is based on this premise), which as you know, I think is utter bollocks, so there isn't much room for manoeuvre in this debate anyway. Rotation has and never will guarantee that a player will not get injured, but if the fitness experts who monitor the players day in day out are saying it's a requirement in order to prevent or minimise injuries, I'll take their word for it, and most managers concur on that point. That doesn't mean I think Rafa should've rested Torres against Birmingham, as I don't, but against Portsmouth I saw a modicum of logic (given the international break) to use your turn of phrase. I disagree that Rafa's primary intent when resting players is even "delayed gazelle" related, because if we had the quality of player we require in certain positions (full backs/wings), they would play. He's obviously not going to undermine the confidence of his team during the season by questioning the level of quality in the squad, it's unmanageable for him to use that as his primary reason/explanation for rotating more in these areas than others do. He may intimate "delayed gazelle" theory at times, but I'm quite sure he'd keep a more settled team if he had the desired level of quality.

The final points total we amount won't be relevant so long as we finish fourth and I don't think you'll find too many trying to mitigate the deficit between ourselves and the eventual winners should it be 20+.

by **Toffeehater** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:38 pm

peewee wrote:maybe all this healthy diet is not as good as its cracked up to be, lets back to meat pies and fish and chips and nights on the ale, they managed to play 60 games a season like that without injury despite wearing no shin pads.

players now are soft

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