Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:04 pm

Emerald Red wrote:Sketched this morning.

That's fricking awesome :bowdown

Anyway, the kid can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. He is the best parts of Drogba and the best parts of Michael Owen (when he was actually good) rolled into one.

And he's only just turned 24. The potential is frightening.

by **Owzat** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:27 pm

The criticism that is predictably being levelled at Torres is that any decent defences "have him in their pockets". It's funny that the last time I looked at who Ronaldo scored against he had 21 goals and 14 of those were against sides in the bottom half of the table. But of course it's going to be true of any striker, if they scored more against the top sides than the bottom sides you'd have to wonder why. The sides at the top tend to concede less goals and therefore have better defences and therefore will stop more strikers scoring.

But the bare fact of the matter is Torres is scoring a phenomenal amount of goals that makes any striker scoring at a goal every other game look ordinary. That's the widely accepted sign of a good player, but when it comes to Torres that isn't good enough apparently.

So time for some updated Torres stats, now his European campaign is well under way and he's on a run of scoring in six consecutive home league games. Am I right in thinking seven consecutive would be a Liverpool record?

Torres (Liverpool)

Goals : 28
Appearances : 38
Minutes : 2980

Goals/App : 0.737
Mins/Goal : 106

P38 W23 D10 L5

Home : 21 goals in 21 appearances (1.000 goals/app)
Away : 7 goals in 17 appearances (0.412 goals/app)

vs top ten Premiership :7 goals in 12 appearances (0.583 goals/app)
vs bottom ten Premiership : 17 goals in 18 appearances (0.944 goals/app)

vs Other English/Europe : 4 goals in 8 appearances (0.500 goals/app)

Doesn't appear to be many holes in this boys record, perhaps his record away could be better, but then our goalscoring split of 100 goals is 70 home and only 30 away so it isn't too surprising

Torres' away goals

3 vs Reading (Carling Cup)
1 vs Marseille (Champions League)
1 vs Derby (Premiership)
1 vs Boro (Premiership)
1 vs Inter (Champions League)

With most of our remaining games being away, regardless of progess in Europe, then we could do with Torres scoring a few away. He should really fill his boots at brum, Fulham and against spudz' defence. A goal or two at the Emirates would be handy too. He should surely get 30 this season, if we can go all the way in Europe then 40 must be possible - with Fulham and brum away, Man City and Blackburn home and potentially eleven fixtures.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:36 pm

I'd like someone to post our past strikers 'goals per season' tally so I can compare with torres.

eg : (made up figures)

M.Owen app=38 goals=20
K.Dalglish app=42 goals=23
Torres app=38 goals=28

and so on...

by **Feeney** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:54 pm

Great piece from Brian Reade, courtesy of LFC.tv

WHY TORRES COULD BE BEST RED EVER

Daily Mirror columnist Brian Reade assesses the remarkable impact made by Liverpool's new number nine and reveals why he can already be talked about in the same breath as King Kenny.

Before last month's Reading game I bumped into a mate whose Anfield memories go back to afternoons when Jimmy Melia's ample backside stretched the red stripe on his white shorts to the width of a girder.

He needed to get something off his chest about Fernando Torres. Although the mere mention of the Spaniard's name made the Fiftysomething's eyes blaze like a child on Christmas morning, he was clearly troubled.

And so he launched into a long confessional in which he unburdened his guilty feelings. He spoke of being visited in the middle of the night with the sacrilegious thought that it was no longer Kenny Dalglish or Kevin Keegan who were the best players he'd seen in red, but this kid who'd barely been around for five minutes.

I gave him ten Hail Marys and told him to revisit the Anfield scriptures. But one crucifixion of Everton later, I'm beginning to buy into his blasphemy.

The superstar has yet to draw breath who could prove in a season that his contribution to the Liverpool cause exceeds Dalglish's. But if Fernanado Torres sees out his six-year contract in the same manner he has seen out his first six months, there is a good chance he will win a place in our collective heart as Liverpool's finest.

And resistance from even the most ardent Dalglishophile will be futile because the cold eye of history will be the judge. Put simply, if Torres develops the way his talent and character suggest he will, and if Liverpool improve with him the way they surely must, he will be named World Player of the Year before 2013.

Michael Owen is the only Red to be named European Player of the Year while still at Anfield, with Kevin Keegan and Kenny Dalglish earning runners-up spots and Steven Gerrard making off with a bronze. There have been others such as Roger Hunt, Graeme Souness Ian Rush and Alan Hansen who could lay claim to a place in the best world side of their day. But ask a fan of any age from Buenos Aries to the Bosphorous to name a Liverpool player who at some point was the best on earth and they would be stumped.

Ask them after the 2010 World Cup, when the then 26-year-old Torres will hopefully still be the Liverpool Number 9, and they may have a name for you.

Due to Cristiano Ronaldo's stunning form, Torres' achievements in his debut season have been criminally overlooked. Compare his 21 League goals (with six games left) against four of the most successful foreign attackers to have moved to the Premiership.

In Ronaldo's first season at United he scored four League goals. The following season it was five. Didier Drogba's first two League totals at Chelsea were 10 and 12. Denis Bergkamp hit 11 in his first season for Arsenal and 12 in his second. And the great Thierry Henry managed 17 and 17, more than a few of which were penalties. All of those players except Bergkamp were arguably playing in better teams than Torres currently is. As were Keegan (whose first season haul at Anfield was nine), Dalglish (20) and Ian Rush (17).

But the statistics don't tell half the story about this phenomenal young player, who possesses every single quality a striker needs: Pace, power, control, movement, guile, coolness, maturity, timing, heading ability, two quick feet, bottle, technique (insert your own attribute of choice.)

When he signed for Liverpool a Spanish media pundit said: "The wonderful thing about Fernando is you never see him score the same goal twice." I still haven't. Neither have I seen him score a scruffy one. Even the ones described as gifts (against Derby and Middlesbrough at Anfield) were mainly due to the mental pressure he puts defences under. The same reason Milan's Marco Materazzi was sent off which massively swung the last round of the Champions League in Liverpool's favour.

Sitting in a Milan bar after Torres had claimed revenge for Shankly 43 years on, someone asked what his best goal so far had been, and all six of us gave a different answer. Mine was his Ricky Villa slalom in Marseille but virtually every one of his 28 goals this season have been worthy of a frame.

Indeed the one we'd just witnessed in the San Siro summed up his towering talent. Fabio Aurelio played in a lovely cross, but it was Torres's ability to bring it under control so quickly, to turn his tight-marking defender so easily, then place it with such power and precision in the corner of the net in one of the great stadiums of world football, which exemplified his class.

A sign of any sportsman's true greatness is to make what he is doing look like it is happening in slow-motion. That was how his goal against Everton on Sunday looked from my view-point on the Kop. When he picked up that loose ball in a packed box time stood still. All the other bodies seemed frozen to the spot, incapable of doing anything to stop the back of the net rustling.

Yet there is more to his game than scoring. Ask Steven Gerrard why he's blossoming in that second striker role and he'll tell you that the intelligence of Torres' runs and the panic it causes among defenders creates the space for him to exploit.

Ask him why he had a frustrating game for England against France in that same position and he'll hopefully tell you that Wayne Rooney isn't a shadow of the player Torres is when it comes to leading the line. And if Stevie won't Fabio Capello will.

The most remarkable thing about this young Spaniard is that he has something of every great Liverpool striker I've had the pleasure to have seen: St John's tenacity, Hunt's accuracy, Keegan's engine, Toshack's heading, Dalglish's perception, Rush's movement, Aldridge's opportunism, Fowler's repertoire, Owen's pace. It's all there. And in his first season as a marked man in a foreign land playing in the most physically demanding league in the world, he's proved it.

Torres has yet to show himself superior to King Kenny but he has a real chance of becoming the first Liverpool player to be judged by experts as the best in the world, a feat which would mark him down as the greatest Red of all-time. And you'll have had the honour to have witnessed his every glorious shimmy.

So go on. Bounce.

Torres for me is pound for pound the best striker in the world at this given time and as Brian says, he can only get better. I'm getting chills, its that frightening how good this kid will be!!!! :buttrock

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:32 am

Torres speaks English.

click on the grey links.

http://elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2008/04/01/futbol/1207084407.html

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:09 am

ok torres is having an unbelieveable first season. but dont' get too carried away by comparing him with other foreign attackers and their first seasons. What matters is longevity.

Torres still have weaknesses in his game... there are matches where he was kept quiet by better defences and he would never really show up anymore...he seems to get disappointed quite easily... it wasn't his fault alone of course... but for me he needs to show more tenacity where even when he's marked out for the whole game, he is still capable of popping up and scoring anytime if given a lapse of concentration by the defence... this to me is the quality of great strikers in the game... michael owen showed this kind of patience... if he can do that he will truely become a great great player...

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:44 pm

Lee J wrote:I'd like someone to post our past strikers 'goals per season' tally so I can compare with torres.

eg : (made up figures)

M.Owen app=38 goals=20
K.Dalglish app=42 goals=23
Torres app=38 goals=28

and so on...

Not a chance, I may not be busy but I'm certainly not that bored. Wouldn't it just be simpler to find their career appearances and goals, divide through for a goals per game or games per goal ratio and compare? Why per season? It probably is available somewhere like wikipedia

This site is ok, will give you something like you're looking for but only back to the beginning of the Premiership

http://www.soccer-stats.com/teams....asid=99

The other site I sometimes use doesn't have players beyond the Premiership either, doesn't help that t'internet started slowly and then boomed into a massive resource more recently. A lot of people don't want to go back historically.

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:47 pm

maguskwt wrote:ok torres is having an unbelieveable first season. but dont' get too carried away by comparing him with other foreign attackers and their first seasons. What matters is longevity.

Torres still have weaknesses in his game... there are matches where he was kept quiet by better defences and he would never really show up anymore...he seems to get disappointed quite easily... it wasn't his fault alone of course... but for me he needs to show more tenacity where even when he's marked out for the whole game, he is still capable of popping up and scoring anytime if given a lapse of concentration by the defence... this to me is the quality of great strikers in the game... michael owen showed this kind of patience... if he can do that he will truely become a great great player...

The problem is the better defences belong to the better teams and his colleagues have as much of an off-day as he does. Or perhaps we expect him to be able to dance through any defence, how often does he get ball to feet just outside the box against the better sides to do any tricks or slot it home? I'd be interested in knowing how many goals have been created or set up for him and how many are down to him and his brilliance

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:08 pm

maguskwt wrote:ok torres is having an unbelieveable first season. but dont' get too carried away by comparing him with other foreign attackers and their first seasons. What matters is longevity.

Torres still have weaknesses in his game... there are matches where he was kept quiet by better defences and he would never really show up anymore...he seems to get disappointed quite easily... it wasn't his fault alone of course... but for me he needs to show more tenacity where even when he's marked out for the whole game, he is still capable of popping up and scoring anytime if given a lapse of concentration by the defence... this to me is the quality of great strikers in the game... michael owen showed this kind of patience... if he can do that he will truely become a great great player...

good observation and yes i have to agree with you , he seems to give up easily when the defence has marked him out , owen did not do that and that was one of his strengths.

by **club_Levis** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:33 pm

Toffeehater wrote:
maguskwt wrote:ok torres is having an unbelieveable first season. but dont' get too carried away by comparing him with other foreign attackers and their first seasons. What matters is longevity.

Torres still have weaknesses in his game... there are matches where he was kept quiet by better defences and he would never really show up anymore...he seems to get disappointed quite easily... it wasn't his fault alone of course... but for me he needs to show more tenacity where even when he's marked out for the whole game, he is still capable of popping up and scoring anytime if given a lapse of concentration by the defence... this to me is the quality of great strikers in the game... michael owen showed this kind of patience... if he can do that he will truely become a great great player...

good observation and yes i have to agree with you , he seems to give up easily when the defence has marked him out , owen did not do that and that was one of his strengths.

But it also depends on the system played against those teams as they have better defenders e.g Manure where he has to come against Vidic and Rio. In that case as a lone striker no striker will thrive including Michel Owen.

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:30 pm

club_Levis wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:
maguskwt wrote:ok torres is having an unbelieveable first season. but dont' get too carried away by comparing him with other foreign attackers and their first seasons. What matters is longevity.

Torres still have weaknesses in his game... there are matches where he was kept quiet by better defences and he would never really show up anymore...he seems to get disappointed quite easily... it wasn't his fault alone of course... but for me he needs to show more tenacity where even when he's marked out for the whole game, he is still capable of popping up and scoring anytime if given a lapse of concentration by the defence... this to me is the quality of great strikers in the game... michael owen showed this kind of patience... if he can do that he will truely become a great great player...

good observation and yes i have to agree with you , he seems to give up easily when the defence has marked him out , owen did not do that and that was one of his strengths.

But it also depends on the system played against those teams as they have better defenders e.g Manure where he has to come against Vidic and Rio. In that case as a lone striker no striker will thrive including Michel Owen.

But owen never gave up u see , i rmb a few years back against arsenal in a fa cup final i think we were down 1 nil and owen was marked out but yet he tried and got the equlisier .

by **florenceultras** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:34 pm

hi , i live in florence and i'm fiorentina ultras. WE LOVE LIVERPOOL REMEMBER!!!!!!!!! AND WHEN SOMEONE OF YOU COME IN FLORENCE CALL US AND WE WILL DRINK ALL TOGHETER. I'M SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH!!!!!!!!

by **RedBlood** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:52 am

ruskiy playmaker wrote:Torres speaks English.

click on the grey links.

http://elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2008/04/01/futbol/1207084407.html

his voice is alot deeper them i thought it would be lol

he sounds like riise :laugh:

by **destro** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:10 pm

A quick question, does anyone think that Torres goes down to easily and complains to much ?

I am always bias towards Liverpool when ever I discuss them in work but today a lot of the lads I work with ( United fans ) were saying how he is a great player but lately he has taken to falling over to easily and complaining a lot.

A Liverpool F.C discussion board is probably not the ideal place to ask such a question but, putting the rose tinted specs to one side for a minute does anyone else think that a darker side is creeping in to his game. I remember him saying how Gerrard had said he doesn't approve of players falling over and that he frowns upon it so it seems strange that he is being accused of doing it, the tabloids have also started to mention it.

I have seen many games this season where he has been kicked off the park ( Reading sticks out ) and just seemed to relish the physical side of it, I haven't personally noticed him going to ground easily or maybe I have and just refuse to admit.

Basically is it a case of jealousy from other fans and the usual rubbish from the press or is there something in it ?

by **skatesy** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:21 pm

destro wrote:A quick question, does anyone think that Torres goes down to easily and complains to much ?

I am always bias towards Liverpool when ever I discuss them in work but today a lot of the lads I work with ( United fans ) were saying how he is a great player but lately he has taken to falling over to easily and complaining a lot.

A Liverpool F.C discussion board is probably not the ideal place to ask such a question but, putting the rose tinted specs to one side for a minute does anyone else think that a darker side is creeping in to his game. I remember him saying how Gerrard had said he doesn't approve of players falling over and that he frowns upon it so it seems strange that he is being accused of doing it, the tabloids have also started to mention it.

I have seen many games this season where he has been kicked off the park ( Reading sticks out ) and just seemed to relish the physical side of it, I haven't personally noticed him going to ground easily or maybe I have and just refuse to admit.

Basically is it a case of jealousy from other fans and the usual rubbish from the press or is there something in it ?

There have been a couple of incidences where I have felt that he may have been able to stay on his feet if he fought a little more aggresively. However, in general, I think that he tries to stay on his feet as much as he can.

I do notice though that he looks at times to get frustrated with the lack of help he sometimes receives up front. I think Arsenal is a good example. Now maybe it was just that Liverpool was trying to play a more defensive style of game; it just seemed, however, that he would have the ball around the 18 yard box and get frustrated while trying to bring it in because he would have no support.

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