Liverpool FC Forum

by **radun5** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:48 am

GBJH, the main questions are:
what do you think is the objective of fielding a defensive midfielder is ?
what do you think the main goal of an "out-and-out" winger is ?

Last season, Pennant was (if I remember correctly) the second in term of minutes played. What I wanted to know is not only how many goals he scored, but also how many assists he provided ? I am pretty sure that in the league the number of assists was not very high, and that in the end the stats will help my point.

Against Milan, he was getting a lot behind the defenders but failed to deliver any killer ball. This is basicly what Pennant lacks. On the contrary, Mascherano has contributed a lot to Liverpool's possesion and defensive record (at least in the games I watched), therefore we all believe he is excellent at what he needs to do, given his position in the team.

To make it easier for you to understand, if Pennant had 1 goal and 15-20 assists, nobody would complain about his performances. Unfortunately, this has not been the case.

by **heimdall** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:58 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

owen's first 4 full seasons with us = 23 + 23 + 12 + 24 = 82 goals... surely torres needs to beat that to be able to claim that he's better than owen...(note: I didn't count the 96-97 season as his first because he only had 2 appearances)

owen's best 4 season with us = 28 + 28 + 24 + 23 = 103 goals...

I like torres alot but come on... he still has a way to beat owen's accomplishments...

Definately impressive numbers there mate. Things to consider though are firstly Owen took penalties, secondly are those his LEAGUE goals you are talking about, and thirdly, something else which has temporarily slipped my mind. Shame that, because out of the three things to remember it was the one above all others which categorically proved Torres was much the better player. It'll come back to me.

Anyway, Fowler was better than Owen as well.

It was probably the fact that Owen always had either a great or fairly good strike partner (Fowler and Heskey) whereas Torres doesn't.
Torres is a much better striker than Owen ever was, he is stronger, quicker and more game intelligent, plus he isn't a dwarf!!

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:14 am

those stats are from ALL competitions. Owen never scored 20 in the league

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:59 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Mick, Mascheranho and Gerrard have been paired together many times this season, but also during many games Mascheranho has been further advanced than Gerrard. So it is fair to expect him to pop up now and then. Sissoko, I'll go back to it, was constantly slaughtered for his lack of goals, as were Diao, Biscan, Cheyrou and Hamman. They've all been there and taken criticism for not scoring, so Mascheranho (however good at his job he is) must take some criticism for not scoring...NOT AS MUCH AS PENNANT, I take this point and keep repeating it, that Pennant should score more than he does and score more than Mascheranho.

But if people are or were prepared to moan about other "defensive minded midfielders" then they have to do the same for Mascheranho. Likewise if I slaughter Kewell for not getting on the scoresheet enough, I must do the same for Pennant. Which I am doing, he doesn't score enough, mainly because in his mind a winger's position is right on the touch line and not to move. So yes Pennant must score more as must many of our players.

I think in all competitions so far this season we've got TWO players in double figures in terms of goals, Torres and Gerrard. Early March to only have two players is a disgrace. All round, not just Pennant, not just Mascherano and not just Kuyt. But as a team that's pathetic. By this stage (no matter how much rotation has gone on) I'd expect Kuyt and Crouch to have racked up ten, with Babel very close to it. Riise and Aurellio with the amount of free kicks and shots those two have, they should have more than one goal between them. Alonso and Mascheranho should have more than two. Voronin should have more than five (all of which came in the opening months of the season) Our defenders could contribute a bit at corners also. Our wide players really need to push a few more goals (mainly Pennant) So overall I think our eye in front of goal (bar Gerrard and Torres) is poor at best.

Not to be pedantic but Yossi's on 10 goals at the moment.

I think your general point about the need for more goals to come from other areas of the pitch is sound. I do feel that the Mascherano comparison is stretching things a little because, on the whole, the Argie does virtually everything we expect of him and more. I don't think anyone expects him to score so I don't think anyone really holds that against him when evaluating his game. The same went for Sissoko, IMO. He wasn't roasted for not scoring, he was roasted for not passing the ball effectively--which is definitely in the CMs brief. Back to Pennant and I agree with Radun that the issue is that, not only is he not scoring, not only does he not get in the position to score, but that he doesn't create enough goals for others either. His lack of finishing is just one key area of his game where he comes up short but there are more and that includes when he's in his very best form in a red shirt. Many applaud his performance in Athens when, IMO, he was merely decent. Milan gave him acres of space and he ran into it gamely but his final ball was shocking a lot of the time. He's been a good stop-gap but we need better to win the league. Maybe not as first priority but before too long.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:17 pm

2 pages of this thread comparing Pennants goalscoring with Mascherano ? GBJH you really do post some strange things at times

The point about more goals being spread round the team is fair enough, but you seem to be clutching at straws using Masherano as a comparison with Pennant.
I thought we were really struggling to break Newcastle down on Saturday until the freak goal started the usual collapse that we have seem so often this season from the geordies.
The reason for that was the two players either side of Torres were not in the right position. Benayoun spent to much time in deep central areas, and Pennant did what he always does, hug the touchline and try and cross it everytime he got the ball.
That position required the two of them supporting Torres far more and neither were imo.
Pennant is neat and tidy, but he lacks bottle, what i mean by that is he always takes the easy option. He should be attacking the full back far more instead of putting hopeful balls into the box all of the time.
He should also be getting himself into positions like he did for the goal saturday far more often.
Like bad bob said his place for now in the squad is safe enough but we should be replacing him with someone of far more quality if we want to progress.

by **woof woof !** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:53 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I think Mascheranho is brilliant at what he does, but for a world class player he has to score. Considering he's had chances as well. He's done it for Argentina, so he must do it for club as well.

Done it for Argentina ?

Absolute Tripe ! Mascherano has made 31 appearances for Argentina and scored ONE goal.

Mascherano does a fantastic job as a defensive midfielder and that is his role , if he scores it's a bonus BUT its not something we expect.

You do however expect your winger to score at least a couple per season , Pennant has made 71 appearances for Liverpool and scored just TWO goals , hence the criticism the Pennant receives.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:02 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I think Mascheranho is brilliant at what he does, but for a world class player he has to score. Considering he's had chances as well. He's done it for Argentina, so he must do it for club as well.

Done it for Argentina ?

Absolute Tripe ! Mascherano has made 31 appearances for Argentina and scored ONE goal.

Mascherano does a fantastic job as a defensive midfielder and that is his role , if he scores it's a bonus BUT its not something we expect.

You do however expect your winger to score at least a couple per season , Pennant has made 71 appearances for Liverpool and scored just TWO goals , hence the criticism the Pennant receives.

2 he has scored mate.

He got them both in the copa america.

Although i agree totally with your point, just wanted to point that out

by **woof woof !** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:14 pm

Cheers ACE, yer can't trust the BBC for stats anymore.

You could make an argument for wanting more goals from Mascherano , as John Holding pointed out Mascherano has had some opportunities but to attempt to deflect critiscism from a wingers miserable goal scoring record by attempting to compare against the exploits of a defensive midfielder is just daft .

by **maguskwt** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:27 pm

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

owen's first 4 full seasons with us = 23 + 23 + 12 + 24 = 82 goals... surely torres needs to beat that to be able to claim that he's better than owen...(note: I didn't count the 96-97 season as his first because he only had 2 appearances)

owen's best 4 season with us = 28 + 28 + 24 + 23 = 103 goals...

I like torres alot but come on... he still has a way to beat owen's accomplishments...

Definately impressive numbers there mate. Things to consider though are firstly Owen took penalties, secondly are those his LEAGUE goals you are talking about, and thirdly, something else which has temporarily slipped my mind. Shame that, because out of the three things to remember it was the one above all others which categorically proved Torres was much the better player. It'll come back to me.

Anyway, Fowler was better than Owen as well.

those are total number of goals in all competition mick... no matter what... it shows how consistent he was season after season... and perhaps we should continue this discussion in the other thread "why rafa chose torres over owen"... so i'm gonna copy and paste over there...

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:29 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I think Mascheranho is brilliant at what he does, but for a world class player he has to score. Considering he's had chances as well. He's done it for Argentina, so he must do it for club as well.

Done it for Argentina ?

Absolute Tripe ! Mascherano has made 31 appearances for Argentina and scored ONE goal.

Mascherano does a fantastic job as a defensive midfielder and that is his role , if he scores it's a bonus BUT its not something we expect.

You do however expect your winger to score at least a couple per season , Pennant has made 71 appearances for Liverpool and scored just TWO goals , hence the criticism the Pennant receives.

31 games, two goals for country. Over 50 games I imagine by now for club, no goals. Proves he's got a better goalscoring record for country. So he's done it at international level, he's scored.
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I'm not comparing Mascheranho's goals to Pennant's. But the point is, the team as a whole need more goals. Right now our side relies on Gerrard and Torres. If they don't score, Liverpool don't win. That's a major problem. So the likes of Pennant and Kewell and any other winger need to score but so do the likes of Alonso and Mascheranho.

by **KennyisGod....still** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:33 pm

Anyone else think GBJH has a crush on our mr Pennant?

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:56 pm

KennyisGod....still wrote:Anyone else think GBJH has a crush on our mr Pennant?

Well if he thinks Pennant is a better footballer than Hleb, then yeah, he might just have a crush on him.

by **Interrrrrrrrrr** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:50 pm

Never have I seen such a brilliant player. His dribbles make me GO wild. In fact I jerk off on his skills every f.ucking day. Somewhat like what you guys really seem to do on F.Torres. His Crosses are out of this world. His is so constant and always class. Unbelievable shot and technical ability. His passes SuperB Too. Man Pennant, what a player what a man.
He is the new better version of Diego Maradona. Thank you God for Pennant.

by **RedBlood** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:36 pm

Interrrrrrrrrr wrote:Never have I seen such a brilliant player. His dribbles make me GO wild. In fact I jerk off on his skills every f.ucking day. Somewhat like what you guys really seem to do on F.Torres. His Crosses are out of this world. His is so constant and always class. Unbelievable shot and technical ability. His passes SuperB Too. Man Pennant, what a player what a man.
He is the new better version of Diego Maradona. Thank you God for Pennant.

not funny at all and your obviously not a inter fan reading your posts you fu,cking clown...go and suck your mums big fat co,ck

by **harper_thecarlsons** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:38 pm

pennant is s*!t i'd rather have le tallac on the wing hahahahaha

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