Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:24 pm

Speaking as a fan who watched us lift trophy after trophy in the 70s and 80s I know what it's like to watch great passing football as a Liverpool fan.

Many of our more "modern age" fans won't know what pass and move is from a Liverpool prespective. So I'll explain it, it's pretty simple to understand. It's PASS the ball to the nearest fella in the same shirt as you AND then MOVE into space. Not lump it forward and then admire your pass.

So just where on earth has Liverpool's traditional pass and move gone. Now we just seem to be so static and robotic. Surely the ability to pass and move hasn't disappeared from the game off football.

anybody got any reasons for this?

by **Number 9** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:38 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Speaking as a fan who watched us lift trophy after trophy in the 70s and 80s I know what it's like to watch great passing football as a Liverpool fan.

Many of our more "modern age" fans won't know what pass and move is from a Liverpool prespective. So I'll explain it, it's pretty simple to understand. It's PASS the ball to the nearest fella in the same shirt as you AND then MOVE into space. Not lump it forward and then admire your pass.

So just where on earth has Liverpool's traditional pass and move gone. Now we just seem to be so static and robotic. Surely the ability to pass and move hasn't disappeared from the game off football.

anybody got any reasons for this?

I was chatting to a friend about this a few days ago mate.
We were comparing Liverpool with Arsenal and the differences.When Arsenal have the ball everyone around the player in posession of the ball is making himself available,thinking and moving,trying to make a good angle or an easy pass if you like.It makes the man under pressures life easier.The guy that has the ball always has options and can choose the most practical.

In contrast our players seem to most of the time remain almost static.
We chatted about it for a while over a few beers .

Our conclusion was that we reckon,Rafa is very much into conserving energy and instructs the players to let the ball do the work rather than the more conventional pass and move.
We also concluded after another few pints that we may be wrong but if we were right that Rafa needs to get back to basics and stop worrying about energy levels...FFS thes players are superfit and can run all day!

Interseting post mate,i know where you are coming from!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:54 pm

Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Speaking as a fan who watched us lift trophy after trophy in the 70s and 80s I know what it's like to watch great passing football as a Liverpool fan.

Many of our more "modern age" fans won't know what pass and move is from a Liverpool prespective. So I'll explain it, it's pretty simple to understand. It's PASS the ball to the nearest fella in the same shirt as you AND then MOVE into space. Not lump it forward and then admire your pass.

So just where on earth has Liverpool's traditional pass and move gone. Now we just seem to be so static and robotic. Surely the ability to pass and move hasn't disappeared from the game off football.

anybody got any reasons for this?

I was chatting to a friend about this a few days ago mate.
We were comparing Liverpool with Arsenal and the differences.When Arsenal have the ball everyone around the player in posession of the ball is making himself available,thinking and moving,trying to make a good angle or an easy pass if you like.It makes the man under pressures life easier.The guy that has the ball always has options and can choose the most practical.

In contrast our players seem to most of the time remain almost static.
We chatted about it for a while over a few beers .

Our conclusion was that we reckon,Rafa is very much into conserving energy and instructs the players to let the ball do the work rather than the more conventional pass and move.
We also concluded after another few pints that we may be wrong but if we were right that Rafa needs to get back to basics and stop worrying about energy levels...FFS thes players are superfit and can run all day!

Interseting post mate,i know where you are coming from!

The two players who have done nothing but run since Benitez brought them to Anfield are Kuyt and Sissoko. Surprisingly they're two of our worst passers. Thankfully Sissoko has gone (god knows how we got more than we paid for him but that's another matter and now he's Juve's problem) but we still have to put up with Kuyt, who can't control anything.

So all this running around is pointless if when you win the ball you can't use it. You just end up giving the ball back and having to waste more energy by trying to regain it.

Back to basics of pass and move, be much easier on the players.

Also throughout history, it's this style of play that has won trophies. Even now, United and Arsenal play the passing game and they're the top two. It's more than a coincidence, surely? And it's not as if we don't have people who can pass a ball. The players we have, we should be able to pass our way up the pitch and cause other sides havoc. Plus with our forward line of Crouch and Torres we can change if the passing game isn't working, but we need to get back to passing and moving.

by **Paul C** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:01 pm

I said this in a post late last year, we brought a song out about it 'Pass and move it's the Liverpool groove' and now we just see it, team like Arsenal and United do it and look how successful they are, it's simple really, you pass and move that way it creates space and that their are always options for the player on the ball.

It's not rocket science :;):

by **Number 9** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:02 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Speaking as a fan who watched us lift trophy after trophy in the 70s and 80s I know what it's like to watch great passing football as a Liverpool fan.

Many of our more "modern age" fans won't know what pass and move is from a Liverpool prespective. So I'll explain it, it's pretty simple to understand. It's PASS the ball to the nearest fella in the same shirt as you AND then MOVE into space. Not lump it forward and then admire your pass.

So just where on earth has Liverpool's traditional pass and move gone. Now we just seem to be so static and robotic. Surely the ability to pass and move hasn't disappeared from the game off football.

anybody got any reasons for this?

I was chatting to a friend about this a few days ago mate.
We were comparing Liverpool with Arsenal and the differences.When Arsenal have the ball everyone around the player in posession of the ball is making himself available,thinking and moving,trying to make a good angle or an easy pass if you like.It makes the man under pressures life easier.The guy that has the ball always has options and can choose the most practical.

In contrast our players seem to most of the time remain almost static.
We chatted about it for a while over a few beers .

Our conclusion was that we reckon,Rafa is very much into conserving energy and instructs the players to let the ball do the work rather than the more conventional pass and move.
We also concluded after another few pints that we may be wrong but if we were right that Rafa needs to get back to basics and stop worrying about energy levels...FFS thes players are superfit and can run all day!

Interseting post mate,i know where you are coming from!

The two players who have done nothing but run since Benitez brought them to Anfield are Kuyt and Sissoko. Surprisingly they're two of our worst passers. Thankfully Sissoko has gone (god knows how we got more than we paid for him but that's another matter and now he's Juve's problem) but we still have to put up with Kuyt, who can't control anything.

So all this running around is pointless if when you win the ball you can't use it. You just end up giving the ball back and having to waste more energy by trying to regain it.

Back to basics of pass and move, be much easier on the players.

Also throughout history, it's this style of play that has won trophies. Even now, United and Arsenal play the passing game and they're the top two. It's more than a coincidence, surely? And it's not as if we don't have people who can pass a ball. The players we have, we should be able to pass our way up the pitch and cause other sides havoc. Plus with our forward line of Crouch and Torres we can change if the passing game isn't working, but we need to get back to passing and moving.

Very true about Sissoko and Kuyt,but the problem is matey theres more to it than just running and becoming available.

To play a pass and move game the team needs to full of players with excellent first touch,well if not excellent a lot better than Sissoko and Kuyts.

Its not about just running.It takes a brain as well.players dont necessarily have to move far at times its about running at the right time and into the best position,hence making the player in posessions life a lot easier.
LFC yes did play this way before,right now our team cant do it!
Too many players are on a different page from others half the time when we do attack,also it aint Rafas style.

Like i said,he seems to believe in letting the ball do the work...more so than the player!

by **Aaron** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:04 pm

For me, too much emphasis is being replaced on tactics these days. Yes there will be a little bit of tasctical nous needed but I doubt many players hear their manager say find the nearest man and move into space, more of cover your position.

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:13 pm

Great post

As someone like yourself i witnessed the late 60s 70s 80s football that we were famous for as you said passing and moving but dont forget John our players then where brought up and had that type of football drilled into the brain if you wanted to play for Liverpool this was how you played,

In them days when players well most of them came to the club they spent a time in the reserves and were shown the Liverpool style of play by the bootroom staff when they were ready they got the nod, But in them Fabulous days alot of our players came from lower divisions costing next to nothing and we wernt demanding to put a 17 million pound midfielder in the team as a lot of us will say why pay all that money and play him in the reserves , But on the other side of it you have to look at how the coaching has changed over the years more continental. And i know this is even happening at grass roots level all over the place kids are not taught anymore to play that way its get the ball and get rid so until the coaching methods are changed again and they are shown to do this in my opinion its gonna keep producing these type of players.
Oh yes you gonna get the odd little gem that shines through who has the ability to play like this but its a sad situation to what we have been spoiled with in the past.

I hope some of that makes sence

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:13 pm

Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Speaking as a fan who watched us lift trophy after trophy in the 70s and 80s I know what it's like to watch great passing football as a Liverpool fan.

Many of our more "modern age" fans won't know what pass and move is from a Liverpool prespective. So I'll explain it, it's pretty simple to understand. It's PASS the ball to the nearest fella in the same shirt as you AND then MOVE into space. Not lump it forward and then admire your pass.

So just where on earth has Liverpool's traditional pass and move gone. Now we just seem to be so static and robotic. Surely the ability to pass and move hasn't disappeared from the game off football.

anybody got any reasons for this?

I was chatting to a friend about this a few days ago mate.
We were comparing Liverpool with Arsenal and the differences.When Arsenal have the ball everyone around the player in posession of the ball is making himself available,thinking and moving,trying to make a good angle or an easy pass if you like.It makes the man under pressures life easier.The guy that has the ball always has options and can choose the most practical.

In contrast our players seem to most of the time remain almost static.
We chatted about it for a while over a few beers .

Our conclusion was that we reckon,Rafa is very much into conserving energy and instructs the players to let the ball do the work rather than the more conventional pass and move.
We also concluded after another few pints that we may be wrong but if we were right that Rafa needs to get back to basics and stop worrying about energy levels...FFS thes players are superfit and can run all day!

Interseting post mate,i know where you are coming from!

The two players who have done nothing but run since Benitez brought them to Anfield are Kuyt and Sissoko. Surprisingly they're two of our worst passers. Thankfully Sissoko has gone (god knows how we got more than we paid for him but that's another matter and now he's Juve's problem) but we still have to put up with Kuyt, who can't control anything.

So all this running around is pointless if when you win the ball you can't use it. You just end up giving the ball back and having to waste more energy by trying to regain it.

Back to basics of pass and move, be much easier on the players.

Also throughout history, it's this style of play that has won trophies. Even now, United and Arsenal play the passing game and they're the top two. It's more than a coincidence, surely? And it's not as if we don't have people who can pass a ball. The players we have, we should be able to pass our way up the pitch and cause other sides havoc. Plus with our forward line of Crouch and Torres we can change if the passing game isn't working, but we need to get back to passing and moving.

Very true about Sissoko and Kuyt,but the problem is matey theres more to it than just running and becoming available.

To play a pass and move game the team needs to full of players with excellent first touch,well if not excellent a lot better than Sissoko and Kuyts.

Its not about just running.It takes a brain as well.players dont necessarily have to move far at times its about running at the right time and into the best position,hence making the player in posessions life a lot easier.
LFC yes did play this way before,right now our team cant do it!
Too many players are on a different page from others half the time when we do attack,also it aint Rafas style.

Like i said,he seems to believe in letting the ball do the work...more so than the player!

Agreed, there's no point running 70 yards up the park and leaving the poor soul on the ball to try and take it past 3 opponents. Sometimes even going backwards is better, because we still have the ball and can try again. We need to revert to these tactics. People will say well we haven't played this way for a number of years, well look when we have and look what happened. Istanbul, the ball was sprayed from left to right, ended up with Smicer, goal. Istanbul, Gerrard bursting through the middle, Carra playing it forward along the ground, Baros flicking it on, Gerrard winning a pen. Newcastle this season. Gerrard running into space, Babel playing it into his path, Gerrard rolling it to the edge of the box, Babel scores, 3-0 everyone's happy.

Of course there's time for lumping it forward, but this club is based on pass and move and until we go back to basics we'll be a million miles away from the top 3 or even 4 at this rate.

As for the song "pass and move" that was around under Evans in the mid to late 90s when we had McManaman, Redknapp, Barnes, Fowler and Collymore as our attacking prowess. Along with the attacking full backs of Rob Jones as Stig Inge Bjornebye.

by **Number 9** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:23 pm

John i just read your signature lad! :no

'A new era at Anfield under C.unt and Super C.unt'??

Are you serious or what?

by **whylongball?** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:26 pm

just look at my username

well, there must be a balance of everything. Man U and Arsenal do switch to long passes from time to time but their emphasis is on pass and move.
Valencia was a pass and move team so i dont think rafa didnt instruct the team to play likewise. The more appropriate question perhaps is why the team fail to follow the instructions at the moment??
From my observation, this Liv team can and have already played sleek passing when on top form (lots of time with Alonso on the field) so could this be another factor?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:26 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Great post

As someone like yourself i witnessed the late 60s 70s 80s football that we were famous for as you said passing and moving but dont forget John our players then where brought up and had that type of football drilled into the brain if you wanted to play for Liverpool this was how you played,

In them days when players well most of them came to the club they spent a time in the reserves and were shown the Liverpool style of play by the bootroom staff when they were ready they got the nod, But in them Fabulous days alot of our players came from lower divisions costing next to nothing and we wernt demanding to put a 17 million pound midfielder in the team as a lot of us will say why pay all that money and play him in the reserves , But on the other side of it you have to look at how the coaching has changed over the years more continental. And i know this is even happening at grass roots level all over the place kids are not taught anymore to play that way its get the ball and get rid so until the coaching methods are changed again and they are shown to do this in my opinion its gonna keep producing these type of players.
Oh yes you gonna get the odd little gem that shines through who has the ability to play like this but its a sad situation to what we have been spoiled with in the past.

I hope some of that makes sence

Makes sense pal, but Wenger is a "continetal" manager and he plays football in the right way. Barcelona play it in the right way. Madrid of the 90s played it in the right way. AC Milan taught us a FOOTBALLING lesson in 05. So surely we can't blame having continetal managers. It's just a matter of which manager from the continent you have.

In our glory years we had players like Joey Jones, Alan Kennerdy, Phil Neal and even John Toshack up front. None of whom were gifted footballers, so what did they do? They gave it to the likes of Keegan, Hughes (RIP), Souness and Heighway, the players who could pass it. Nowadays we have these same untalented passers but they don't give it to the ones who can play. Aurellio and Riise spring to mind. Aurellio still thinks he's a good passer when he couldn't even pass water, and Riise thinks every time he has the ball he's going to go past people the way Ronaldo does. And that is what I feel is the problem. Everyone now wants to be the hero, rather than playing as a team, there's a lot of indiviuals. Our most talented players in terms of passing are Gerrard, Alonso and Agger, so it should be those 3 when fit and playing who dictacte our play. Just like Souness, McDermott and Hughes (RIP) did in yesteryear. Or just as Redknapp, Macca and Barnes did under Evans.

Going onto the progression of youth with the mentality of not being able to pass, that has to do with the coaching. But our youth team coach for years has been Heighway who played throughout our best times. He would of taught the kids how to play football, and the majority of our lads do play football, bar Carra who like Tommy Smith is a no nonense type of defender. Smith had Hughes (RIP) beside him, ball player, Carra has had Sami and Agger, ball players. But our kids have to be taught basic skills, surely, and it's probably because they do pass and move which is why they're not giving a go because that's not how Benitez or even Houllier before him, play which is why we haven't seen a kid break through and maintain his place since Gerrard.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:28 pm

Number 9 wrote:John i just read your signature lad!

'A new era at Anfield under C.unt and Super C.unt'??

Are you serious or what?

I made the signature when they took over, haven't got round to changing it, should though.

by **Number 9** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:30 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:John i just read your signature lad!

'A new era at Anfield under C.unt and Super C.unt'??

Are you serious or what?

I made the signature when they took over, haven't got round to changing it, should though.

Deffo!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:39 pm

Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:John i just read your signature lad!

'A new era at Anfield under C.unt and Super C.unt'??

Are you serious or what?

I made the signature when they took over, haven't got round to changing it, should though.

Deffo!

I think the new 1 is rather appropiate

by **Number 9** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:43 pm

Wenger is a continental manager that has came to England and embraced the way football is played in that league!

He has adapted his style to suit where he is.Rafas problem is he has came to England with continental ideals,implemented them and they have failed!
Rafa has refused to adapt and is now unfortunately feeling the pain so to speak.
No manager can come to England or any other country with different ideals and succeed.A country or a league has its culture and its ways,they wont change because one man suggests otherwise.

The fact that Rafa can win in cups is testament to his ability and i have no doubt that if he could have adapted to the way football is played in England he would have been a winner.The problem is he came to England with Spanish ideas,with tactics that are suited to Spain and refused to change them because he thought he was right.

The thing is Rafa is a very very stubborn man and wont change or adapt now!

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Pass and move - Where has it gone

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