Liverpool FC Forum

by **red37** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:50 pm

Its a good article. Good in the sense that it talks about things we know to be correct and not things that could transpire given a set of circumstances that might favour that picture described somewhere over the Rainbow.

In essence two key components of a side that we know are working well within it. Its just that Tompkins uses up his full quota of requisite words per article to do so. Although, slightly more entertaining than coming out and saying..."Phwoar, that Reina's a bit good" or " Torres is as sharp as a pin in the box isn't he?" Nice to see a positive comment from time to time. Kind of makes you appreciate them a little more when you weigh up the comparisons of recent times.

Kirkland and Cisse vs Reina and Torres. Hmm....let me ponder that one Paul.

Now if only the rest of the side (meaning upwards of 50% of it) was as blessed with quality and we'd be in business. Spine-wise i'm seeing:

Reina
Carragher/Agger
Gerrard/Mascherano/Alonso
Torres

Sort the flanks, bolster the defence and throw in another 'fox in the box' and we might be drooling over one or two more of his fella's assessments, rather than ridiculing his attempts at defending the indefensible. Then again, how often exactly can you get away with stating the bleedin' obvious.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:56 pm

s@int wrote:No Lando what I am saying is you can't include Fergusons spending since 1992 to 2008 and then compare it with Rafa's spending since 2004 to 2008 as if Rafa started with nothing.

FFS Rafa started with Gerrard, Carra , Hyypia, Finnan, Owen,Riise, Kewell Hamann. Or do they not count?

I may be wrong (which I'm not) but there is a few quids worth of talent there.

I don't have to take any of Wengers spending into account because I haven't mentioned him in this thread.

Rafa never had the option with Owen, as, due to his incompetence, Houllier had allowed his boy-wonder's contract to run to less than 6 months. When Real came a calling, he was off like a piece of cheese in a sauna.

So Rafa didn't have Owen at his disposal in anything but meaningless friendlies.

Under Houllier, Finnan was far from convincing, and many questioned his signing until the shift to zonal marking uncovered the lad's true ability. A shift soley due to Rafa, I might add.

During Gerard's tenure, Carragher was seen by most as nothing more than a "utility" player, often employed at leftback, in midfield, and rightback, but he was rarely, if ever, picked in the centre of defense. (Even Igor Biscan and Salif Diao were preferred there, as I remember it.) It's only under Rafa that he's become regarded as one of the best centrebacks in Europe.

Riise has never been anything more than a decent player who can score goals. He was never an outstanding leftback under Houllier, and the only position he truly excelled in was left wingback. (A system Rafa doesn't use very often.)
The simple fact is that Riise has never gotten to grips with the discipline required to play zonal marking, and as such, is a player signed by a different manager, for a different style of play.

Kewell WAS one of Houllier's successes for all of 6 months. He scored 12 goals in the first half of his first season with us, then couldn't hit a cow's a*se with a banjo after that. The fact is, though, that Kewell is one of Rafa's favourite players, which is reflected in the fact that he plays him when he's not even 50% fit.
He has, however, been injured for virtually the entire time Rafa has been here, so to say he had him at his disposal is a little unfair.

Hyypia and Hamman were used by Rafa until their age caught up with them. The sands of time wait for no man, and I think it would be churlish to argue against the fact that their best days were behind them when Rafa took over the reigns.

I'll give you Gerrard, though. That one I'll let you have.

by **Big Niall** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:06 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Under Houllier, Finnan was far from convincing, and many questioned his signing until the shift to zonal marking uncovered the lad's true ability. A shift soley due to Rafa, I might add.

Finnan has always been a quality defender, even at Fulham, I've seen him for many years, he was underrated as he was at a small club. I couldn't understand why LFC fans were on his back so quickly and was always 100% sure he'd be a success here and see off all those Spaniards &Dutch that Rafa wanted to play there instead (who all failed)

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:18 pm

Big Niall wrote:I think Rafa is better than Houllier (who wouldn't be) but he has spent a lot of money and has us no nearer winning the league. I think he is far behind of the other three as

Ferguson - won about nine leagues - nuff said
Mourinho - won two in just three years, second other year, unbeaten at home

Wenger - has built some great flair winning teams for very little net spend(i.e. take his sales into account). Arsenal are better than LFC but how much did all those young unheard of Africans cost?

All three are much better than Rafa, the only Rafa defence is his cup win which Wenger hasn't had - but luck plays a big part in cup success.

Jesus Christ lad you need to consider perspective here.

For a start off Rafa had no way of winning 9 titles he has only been here four years.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:22 pm

Big Niall wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Under Houllier, Finnan was far from convincing, and many questioned his signing until the shift to zonal marking uncovered the lad's true ability. A shift soley due to Rafa, I might add.

Finnan has always been a quality defender, even at Fulham, I've seen him for many years, he was underrated as he was at a small club. I couldn't understand why LFC fans were on his back so quickly and was always 100% sure he'd be a success here and see off all those Spaniards &Dutch that Rafa wanted to play there instead (who all failed)

Irish loyalties?

I respect Finnan big time, but you see Fabio Aurelio's touch and crosses and you think Finnan has more quality than that?

We haven't seen Fabio Aurelio at his best yet, but even at his worse he's QUALITY. Finnan? he's a decent player that becomes good due to his hard work.

Quick note: Fabio Aurelio is Brazilian, not Spaniard.

P.S. Cheers S@int for the RAWK info, I missed that bit.

The last Tomkins article is a decent twist, as Reina needs some credit. He's one of the best keepers in Spain, and I'd include him in Top 10 of the world. Probably a world class keeper.

With Torres I'll always be demanding. Not because his past, not because I don't like him (I love him already) but because the price we paid for him. If he is World Class, I'll ask him to be World Class.

As much as Tomkins mentions he knows using his left foot, and as much as his left foot is used for more than leaning, I have missed a more natural use of it. He never has BTW, Torres has a clearly stronger right foot.

Worth to mention aswell Bigmick's comment on our game with Torres. Sometimes, and I stress Sometimes, Torres has to look more around and don't rely on the one on one, basically because if he doesn't it's a bit more easy for the opposition to predict how to stop us. It's not good we're Torres dependant, and nobody dependant for that matter.

I stress that this is nitpicking eh? if I was to give a note for Torres performance so far, I'd give him a 9 out of 10, an A.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:29 pm

Big Niall wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Under Houllier, Finnan was far from convincing, and many questioned his signing until the shift to zonal marking uncovered the lad's true ability. A shift soley due to Rafa, I might add.

Finnan has always been a quality defender, even at Fulham, I've seen him for many years, he was underrated as he was at a small club. I couldn't understand why LFC fans were on his back so quickly and was always 100% sure he'd be a success here and see off all those Spaniards &Dutch that Rafa wanted to play there instead (who all failed)

I'm not doubting it, just pointing out the fact that he was decidedly dodgy under Houllier.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:47 pm

s@int wrote:Sixteen goals at the halfway point for a player who doesn't take penalties (unlike the others in the top-scorers' chart) is a great return, particularly as he's also missed quite a few games through injury.

and this would have been something like 20 goals at the halfway point had he brought his shooting boots at st james park... amazing...

I feel though that reina benefits alot from his defenders... I think I will elaborate this later...

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:24 pm

bigmick wrote:Another point surely, is that as we are constantly reminded whenever anyone dares to criticise, we achieved a record points total two years ago. Now if people are going to bandy about such facts, they must surely take it on the chin when the question is asked whether in that case we have gone backwards since those heady days. Clearly, whatever has happened between the Champions League win, the FA Cup win, the record points total and now, is nothing to do with any previous management so I wish people would just let that go.

I think people often forget a couple of crucial things about that 2005/2006 season which helped us have such a good domestic campaign. One is the fact that we were knocked out of the Champions League in the second round by Benfica, meaning Rafa didn't have Europe distracting him for the second half of the season. It's no coincidence that we struggle in the league when we do well in Europe. The other important factor was that Harry Kewell had his best season in a Liverpool shirt. If you put two and two together (or, in this case, 7 and 8) you get a confident, creative Kewell on the left flank and a brilliantly energetic, attacking Gerrard on the right ... combine that with Xabi Alonso and Didi Hamann (and sometimes a very promising lad named Sissoko) in the middle and you get arguably the best midfield in the EPL at the time. All we needed THEN was the brilliant striker; however, after Kewell broke down in the FA Cup final and then wrecked himself further in the World Cup, and after Didi left for City, we needed wingers. We got Gonzalez and Pennant. Needless to say, these players didn't/haven't produced anything like what we saw from Kewell and Gerrard in 05/06. And so now we have the brilliant striker (plus Babel, don't forget), but desperately need wingers.

I think it's a good point about Xabi and Gerrard, Finnan and even Riise now not being quite what they were. Thing is it's a tricky cycle that stems from Xabi's performance, IMO. When Xabi is at the peak of his playmaking best, he brings Finnan and Riise into the game with his vision and long passing; Gerrard too, when he played wider. And Xabi was always at his best when Hamann was on the pitch. Nowadays, Xabi often plays as the defensive anchor in the middle with Gerrard and therefore isn't quite as influential when it comes to breaking open defenses ... but when he plays with Mascherano, it's a different story. I think we've only seen it a couple of times, usually against crapper teams ... when we put 6 past Derby, for example, it was because those two played out of their skins.

I think you're right to say we have regressed since then although I only consider our results against Brum, Wigan and Reading as really bad results this season (in the league). Those are matches we should have won and, had we, would have seen us on 44 points with a game in hand. Having said that, during the season you mention, we improved consistently. Now we seem to have good and bad spells. During that season we had less players so the ones we had played more matches. It is an absolute joke that Babel keeps getting dropped for the league and then has to play cup matches. Especially considering the fact that it is Kewell who replaces him. It is strange that Benitez says we miss Pennant and the width he provides yet then plays him against Wigan only to drop him against Luton when we need width more than anything else. It is strange that he then plays Benayoun who does not provide that width.

But fact remains that this is also the season in which we beat Derby 6-0, Porto 4-1, Besiktas 8-0, Marseille 4-0, an in form Pompey 4-1, Bolton 4-0 and Newcastle away 3-0. I can't remember a season in which we had so many games when we scored more than three goals this early in the season.

Now where lies the problem? I think it is with rotation. At the start of the season Torres was rotated. Now he is a regular starter in the league and look what happens. The same goes for Kuijt, Crouch and Voronin. One of these guys has to become a regular partner for Torres and Benitez has to decide on one shape and formation. Let the other teams worry about the players we send out. Not us adjusting our tactics to the other team.

We never get consistent performances because we're never consistent in the way we play. The secret to total football and the "Ajax system" is that all teams, from youth level upward, play in the same formation and same style. That's what we need. A Liverpool reserves and youth side should be recognizable by the way they play. That will make progressing into the first team a hell of a lot easier as well.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:29 pm

stmichael wrote:I think people often forget a couple of crucial things about that 2005/2006 season which helped us have such a good domestic campaign. One is the fact that we were knocked out of the Champions League in the second round by Benfica, meaning Rafa didn't have Europe distracting him for the second half of the season. It's no coincidence that we struggle in the league when we do well in Europe.

More to do with us having the squad for an all out attack on two fronts and not four at this (and that) stage.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:43 pm

stmichael wrote:Now where lies the problem? I think it is with rotation. At the start of the season Torres was rotated. Now he is a regular starter in the league and look what happens. The same goes for Kuijt, Crouch and Voronin. One of these guys has to become a regular partner for Torres and Benitez has to decide on one shape and formation. Let the other teams worry about the players we send out. Not us adjusting our tactics to the other team.

We never get consistent performances because we're never consistent in the way we play. The secret to total football and the "Ajax system" is that all teams, from youth level upward, play in the same formation and same style. That's what we need. A Liverpool reserves and youth side should be recognizable by the way they play. That will make progressing into the first team a hell of a lot easier as well.

A couple of points Saint. Firstly, I think I'm right in saying you are a fairly recent convert to the anti-rotation side of the fence and I would be interested to know what it was if anything that finally swung you that way. Obviously I think you're correct that over rotation is a significant factor in our incosistency, but I'm just curious if it's a conclusion which you have gradually come to or whether there was one particular event which shaped your thinking.

How important rotation is of course is something we could argue about all day. Some of us think it has a huge effect, some think hardly any at all and then there are those who sit somewhere in between the two extremes. One of my major problems with the idea, is that once you accept that it can and does occasionally have a detrimental effect on the performance of them team however slight, then you are looking for a positive effect at some point which will outwiegh the negative. By that I mean it's fairly obvious that if Gerrard and/or Toores don't start the game, we are a bit weaker than if they do. That said, if subsequently they avoid injury, are sharper etc etc and the effect of their absense is only slight, then perhaps you can make a case of it all being worth the upheaval. My feeling is though, that the negative effects of rotation both in the immediate inconsistency it brings from game to game, along with a fragility that seems to surround any confidence we do have is in no way shape or form compensated for by any extra "freshness". In fact, to be perfectly and brutally honest I don't actually see any extra freshness, not even one per cent. No doubt somebody will point out that you can't see it, it's in the players heads and that maybe true I suppose. What you can see though as it's fairly obvious is that our blips turn into bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiips at the slightest sign of adversity.

It might not be all down to rotation, and infact it probably isn't, but it sure doesn't help that's for sure.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:56 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:More to do with us having the squad for an all out attack on two fronts and not four at this (and that) stage.

There might well be something in that Leon. I'm starting to develop a theory which is not dissimilar to St Mikes post about that good Liverpool team of a couple of seasons back. I've said it a couple of times now, Gerrard scored every week from the right, Kewell was bombing on the left, Alonso was not a mile behind his form in his first season, Sissoko won it and Crouch scored some goals. We were difficult to play against and in the second half of the season looked like the best team in the League. We had balance to the team which is always crucial, and we kind of knew how we wanted to play. We weren't especially fluent, but we had a rhythm about us and a belief.

I said a few weeks back when we were absolutely flying (it's worth remembering it was only literally a few weeks ago) that it would be interesting when a couple of the injured players came back, and whether it would actually improve us. I was referring particularly to Alonso at the time, and whether his return and the break up of what at the time looked like an excellent pairing of Masherano and Gerrard would actually help. My worries have proven to be well founded as a couple of changes and rotations and formational experiments later, we are searching once again for a formula. I'm not in any sense whatsoever blaming that on Alonso, or even Rafa for bringing him back in, but the thought persistes that on the occasions where the manager has practically no choice but to pick a particular line-up, he and we actually fair better.

It's one of the reasons I've long said it would make no difference if we signed Samuel Eto, Thiery Henri, Queresma and Cannivaro, you won't win the league with them over here unless you build a team out of the component parts.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:39 am

I have accepted you "won the rotation argument", although I am sure you would rather our title challenge have continue and you lost mate

I still feel that its the loss of balance and formation that rotating the team causes rather than just because we rotate players. Obviously once we find the right balance we should try and stick with it, this becomes much more difficult when say Alonso one of our best passers is rotated for Sissoko who isn't.

Similarly when Torres plays we have pace in the last third of the pitch whereas when we play our other strikers we have to again adapt our game to the slower game of our other strikers.

Balance achieved through good defence, strong midfield with good attacking play is hard to achieve at the best of times , changes of personnel and style make this even more difficult to maintain.

Formational changes are for me however the main bugbear of this season. Playing two attacking wingers with two strikers has never been a favourite of mine, the balance is wrong, and unless you are playing against very weak opposition you can find yourself outnumbered in midfield and your wingers starved of the ball. This is exacerbated if you have slow forwards as the opposition defence can push forward further choking the midfield.

We then move to the single striker with Gerrard in support (a great favourite with our champ manager friends) The problem with this formation is it looks great on paper, allows us to play "our strongest midfield three" BUT doesn't and has never suited our style of play. Playing one up front has advantages if you play a patient build up with clever triangle type football ala Arsenal or if you play hoof up front to a huge striker with a midfield charge to support, ala Wimbledon or us when we play Crouch and run out of ideas.

I have always believed that our way of playing favours the more old fashioned but very adaptable and successful 4-4-2, with one attacking winger and one wide midfield player TO GIVE THE TEAM BALANCE, add to this a creative striker and a goal scoring striker and you have a team that can cope with most situations thrown at it.

I appreciate that at the moment we don't have the creative second striker but even with the players we have I still feel this is our most effective formation ,and that "experimental formations" like we played at Newcastle, Reading, and Luton, whilst giving the illusion of strong attack while maintaining a stout defence are anything but.

That is not to say that changing our formation is always wrong, sometimes its necessary, as when we played Milan in last seasons CL final, but the exceptions are few and far between, we don't play Milan every other week.

So Mick whilst admitting you may have won with your point about rotation I still feel its rotating the formation of the team thats been our main downfall.

by **Penguins** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:04 am

Well, right now rotation isn't working cause in Rafa's dreamworld(when it does work) is that when a player is replaced the same qulaity comes in.
But right now the squad isn't at all as strong as some want to make out.
Even if he do understand taking out Gerrard and Torres will decrease the strength of the team, he completely fails to understand how much.
For Rafa to succeed with his rotation policy he needs much backing so he can get 2 players in each position with almost equal quality. Right now it is not working cause he hasn't got his 1st choice players like Alves but instead he gets Pennants of the world. You could argue it's better to have 11 great players and nothing else, but that is not how Rafa will ever do it.
One argument I do agree with to some degree is the fact that Rafa is overly cautious in everything he does. He always looks from defense out which means I feel our attacking plays suffers both in tactics and with the players he picks.
Even if he finds a offensivly gifted player who can be a game breaker will not matter to him if the alternative is a hard worker who can't make a 10 yard pass. He will most often go for the hard worker and he has taken that philosophy way too far.
In the tactics department I see almost no combinations that are really practiced and used over and over again in games.
Be it triangels or systematic running in channels.
This also means he has spent very little effort in his tenure to go for explosive top class wingers with flair since they often do not work hard enough and play defense well enough.
That is something which frustrates me.
He also overemphasize the center of the park. CM are sure important but "controlling the game" which he obviously loves does mean jack all of nothing comes out of it offensivly.

I have always felt that, besides a few exceptions, footballing ability should be how a player is judged but for some reason Rafa obviously just loves players like Kuyt who has very little footballing ability but will work very hard. Unless he abandon this stubborn workrate>skill and flair stance I can't see us getting much closer.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:09 am

s@int wrote:So Mick whilst admitting you may have won with your point about rotation I still feel its rotating the formation of the team thats been our main downfall.

You could well be right Saint. Whether it's rotation of players, changes of positions or formation it doesn't help us in terms of the search for consistency.

Funnily enough when we look at the balance of a team, it's amazing how often a manager actually stumbles upon a balanced outfit by either necessity or luck. Once you've got that, of course you can change it but I really believe that you should do so sparingly, and that the player(s) who come in should be asked to play a very similar role to the one they are replacing.

If for instance in the front six of Kewell, Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard, Crouch and Morientes you replace Sissoko with Masherano, and Torres for Morientes you might well be onto something. What you can't do though, is constantly change the formation and the players, and then be surprised that the team struggles to play two games alike.

I definately accept though that the formational changes are very significant to inconsistency.

I'm still a bit troubled though to be honest about how our confidence when we have it so fragile. I'm not even convinced it's down to rotation (or if it is I can't really find a theory or an explanation as to why it is so). Why is it, we can be absolutely flying as we were were about three weeks ago (while all the while rotating it's only fair to point out) and then go suddently, completely, totally off the boil?

I'm fecked if I can work it out to be honest.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:23 am

bigmick wrote:I'm still a bit troubled though to be honest about how our confidence when we have it so fragile. I'm not even convinced it's down to rotation (or if it is I can't really find a theory or an explanation as to why it is so). Why is it, we can be absolutely flying as we were were about three weeks ago (while all the while rotating it's only fair to point out) and then go suddently, completely, totally off the boil?

Wasn't it something like, 'the cumulative effect of overrotation affects fluency and rhythm, players don't know their roles, and are unable to forge partnerships, that would ultimately have bred consistency...etc..., leading to a downward spiral..and so on, until the players' confidence corrodes into a fragile state of impairment'.?

That was the impression given to me by a few anti-R's a couple of months ago. There was certainly a point made that concerned 'belief and confidence' draining away from the players, because of rotation.

It's nice to see you've finally made a firm acknowledgement that altering the formation is just as significant, if not more so, than altering the personnel of the side on a frequent basis. Took a while mind

.

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