Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:38 pm

The_Rock wrote:
Big Niall wrote:you shouldn't say that young players with potential are good buys, they are only good buys if the develop into good first teamers - remember le tellec and pongolle?

Rafa's buys have been poor overall. He obviously doesn't rate crouch anymore but Crouch,KUyt,Morientes,Babel,Penant cost about £45m and not one of them add/added anything and none of them are good enough to be regular first teamers in a league winning team.

Rafa's insane policy of rotation means he needs a big squad so he has to buy second rate players from the second tier of prices . If he was more sensible like Ferguson(who has had some bad buys but his big ones like Rooney,Van Nistleroy,Ferdinand,Ronaldo etc are all good first teamers.

That £45m could have bought Rooney(25m and RVN £18m but before Rafa's time) Better to have bought two class players than 5 players not good enough to win the league. I'm not saying those two players were needed just players of that very high standard.

I don't think Rafa will be here at the start of next season and if the owners feel the same they shouldn't be giving him more money to waste on second rate players to fit into his daft rotation policy.

We have 60 players (according to the commentator of the luton match)....... How many different type of team rafa wants to play ?

Well....what is done is done....

I would like to see rafa triming the squad to 30 first.. and more quality players being brought to bring the final number to 40....

But rafa has to act now.

We have 33 players eligible for the first team, of which 12 are actually reserves:

30.
Charles Itandje
33.
Sebastian Leto
34.
Jay Spearing
35.
Ray Putterill
36.
Ryan Flynn
38.
Craig Lindfield
39.
Stephen Darby
40.
David Martin
42.
Nabil El Zhar
44.
Robbie Threlfall
46.
Jack Hobbs
48.
Emiliano Insua.

That means we actually have a squad of 21, unless you include those who do not play for the first team. (They were given numbers so they COULD play if they stepped it up this season - a practice employed for many years.)

The Mancs' squad:

37 squad members.

Sh*tski's squad:

31 members.

Arsenal squad:

28.

Hmmm... Our good friend Andy Gray strikes again, hmmm? Chatting out his corpulent behind like the bitter slaphead he truly is?

Fat jock tw*t.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:39 pm

For me the main argument is not that our players were cr@p when Rafa took over, but that Houllier didn't get the best out of them the last few years. Rafa came in and WON THE CL with mainly those same players. Surely that would be a much better argument? It would also be one I could agree with.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:40 pm

Its not the clubs Physio, its not our physio but its Rafa's physio ?

As opposed to HOULLIERS PHYSIO yes

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:46 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
Big Niall wrote:you shouldn't say that young players with potential are good buys, they are only good buys if the develop into good first teamers - remember le tellec and pongolle?

Rafa's buys have been poor overall. He obviously doesn't rate crouch anymore but Crouch,KUyt,Morientes,Babel,Penant cost about £45m and not one of them add/added anything and none of them are good enough to be regular first teamers in a league winning team.

Rafa's insane policy of rotation means he needs a big squad so he has to buy second rate players from the second tier of prices . If he was more sensible like Ferguson(who has had some bad buys but his big ones like Rooney,Van Nistleroy,Ferdinand,Ronaldo etc are all good first teamers.

That £45m could have bought Rooney(25m and RVN £18m but before Rafa's time) Better to have bought two class players than 5 players not good enough to win the league. I'm not saying those two players were needed just players of that very high standard.

I don't think Rafa will be here at the start of next season and if the owners feel the same they shouldn't be giving him more money to waste on second rate players to fit into his daft rotation policy.

We have 60 players (according to the commentator of the luton match)....... How many different type of team rafa wants to play ?

Well....what is done is done....

I would like to see rafa triming the squad to 30 first.. and more quality players being brought to bring the final number to 40....

But rafa has to act now.

We have 33 players eligible for the first team, of which 12 are actually reserves:

30.
Charles Itandje
33.
Sebastian Leto
34.
Jay Spearing
35.
Ray Putterill
36.
Ryan Flynn
38.
Craig Lindfield
39.
Stephen Darby
40.
David Martin
42.
Nabil El Zhar
44.
Robbie Threlfall
46.
Jack Hobbs
48.
Emiliano Insua.

That means we actually have a squad of 21, unless you include those who do not play for the first team. (They were given numbers so they COULD play if they stepped it up this season - a practice employed for many years.)

The Mancs' squad:

37 squad members.

Sh*tski's squad:

31 members.

Arsenal squad:

28.

Hmmm... Our good friend Andy Gray strikes again, hmmm? Chatting out his corpulent behind like the bitter slaphead he truly is?

Fat jock tw*t.

The reason for the squad size stick to beat Rafa with is as follows:

3. Steve Finnan
4. Sami Hyypia
5. Daniel Agger
6. John Arne Riise
7. Harry Kewell
8. Steven Gerrard
9. Fernando Torres
10. Andriy Voronin
11. Yossi Benayoun
12. Fabio Aurelio
14. Xabi Alonso
15. Peter Crouch
16. Jermaine Pennant
17. Alvaro Arbeloa
18. Dirk Kuyt
19. Ryan Babel
20. Javier Mascherano
21. Lucas Leiva
22. Momo Sissoko
23. Jamie Carragher
25. Pepe Reina
30. Charles Itandje
33. Sebastian Leto
34. Jay Spearing
35. Ray Putterill
36. Ryan Flynn
38. Craig Lindfield
39. Stephen Darby
40. David Martin
42. Nabil El Zhar
44. Robbie Threlfall
46. Jack Hobbs
48. Emiliano Insua
- Anthony Le Tallec
- Adam Hammill
- Besian Idrizaj
- Danny Guthrie
- Ronald Huth
- Martin Hansen
- Krisztian Nemeth
- Peter Gulacsi
- Paul Anderson
- Martin Kelly
- Dean Bouzanis
- Damien Plessis
- Mikel San Jose Dominguez
- Jordy Brouwer
- Ryan Crowther
- Andras Simon
- Nikolay Mihaylov
- Francisco Duran
- Lee Peltier
- Scott Carson
- Godwin Antwi
- Miki Roque

22 memebers of a first team squad (Sorry Lando we have got to include Itanje as he is the second choice keeper and on the bench most weeks.

11 reserve team members given squad numbers in case of emergancy/early cup rounds

22 players that are either currently on loan with other clubs or in the youth set up and we made a fuss of them so they added their names, pictures and profiles to the web site.

Thats 55 players in total listed, so lets round it up to 60 and use it as another reason Rafa is :censored:

.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:47 pm

s@int wrote:
Its not the clubs Physio, its not our physio but its Rafa's physio ?

As opposed to HOULLIERS PHYSIO yes

Dodge the point if it makes you feel better.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:56 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Its not the clubs Physio, its not our physio but its Rafa's physio ?

As opposed to HOULLIERS PHYSIO yes

Dodge the point if it makes you feel better.

What point ?

Was it Rafa's physio or Houlliers physio ? = Rafa's
Did the physio miss diagnose the original injury = yes
Did Rafa sack him = yes
Did Rafa apologise to Kewell = yes
Was Kewell a key player under Houllier= yes
Is Kewell a key player under Rafa = no because he's always injured.
I.E. ITS NOT FKN HOULLIERS FAULT THAT KEWELL IS ALWAYS INJURED

So for Sabre to say that only Gerrard and Carra where key players is wrong in my opinion.

Or are you missing the point yet again ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:04 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Its not the clubs Physio, its not our physio but its Rafa's physio ?

As opposed to HOULLIERS PHYSIO yes

Dodge the point if it makes you feel better.

What point ?

Was it Rafa's physio or Houlliers physio ? = Rafa's
Did the physio miss diagnose the original injury = yes
Did Rafa sack him = yes
Did Rafa apologise to Kewell = yes
Was Kewell a key player under Houllier= yes
Is Kewell a key player under Rafa = no because he's always injured.
I.E. ITS NOT FKN HOULLIERS FAULT THAT KEWELL IS ALWAYS INJURED

So for Sabre to say that only Gerrard and Carra where key players is wrong in my opinion.

Or are you missing the point yet again ?

Who mentioned Houllier ?

The point I made until you went off on a tangent to try and hide the fact your post was an over reaction was:

If we had won the last three games there is no way on this planet you would have stated:

Remember it was RAFA's PHYSIOTHERAPIST THAT FKD KEWELL UP, BEFORE GETTING SACKED

My point is that is an over reaction andthe only reason you posted it was to get onto the Rafa bashing gravy train with another "reason" he is garbage.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:13 pm

I will continue this in pm as you are obviously struggling to understand. The WHOLE POINT IS ITS ABOUT HOULLIER

Sabre said THAT HOULLIER ONLY LEFT RAFA GERRARD AND CARRA AS KEY PLAYERS, I BELIEVE KEWELL WAS A KEY PLAYER BUT HAS NOT BEEN A KEY PLAYER UNDER RAFA BECAUSE RAFA'S PHYSIO FKD UP. THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH RECENT RESULTS, NOTHING TO DO WITH LETS BLAME RAFA IT WAS TO SHOW THAT IT WASN'T HOULLIERS FAULT THAT KEWELL HASN'T BEEN A KEY PLAYER. IF KEWELL HAD BEEN PROPERLY TREATED BY RAFA'S PHYSIO KEWELL WOULD HAVE BEEN A KEY PLAYER FOR RAFA AS WELL.

pm me and we can discuss it further.

If I wanted to make a rafa bashing post I would be in the Luton thread mate glorying in the draw against Luton.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:15 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:But where exactly do I twist the facts or Tomkins for that matter?

When we have built the team, we've brought Alonso, Reina, Mascherano (on loan), Torres, Agger those are key players.

From the Houllier era we only had the legacy of Gerrard and Carra, that could be counted as key player, the other players are either decent or good but not key ones, not match winners. It's a fact we didn't have those match winners back then, it's a fact the likes of Torres cost money, and it's a fact Manchester already spent that money before 2004.

It's also a fact (I'm not blind) that Rafa has spent some dubious money in players that were not good enough, plus lots of young players that do not seem to be able to reach to the first team (Barragan, Insua (who's rumoured to be out to Spain in winter). Rafa has spent some dubious money and I won't deny that. But I think it's undeniable that Rafa has done a major investment to bring key players, and this investment was already done by Ferguson. We had the likes of Cisse to offload, where as they had the likes of Van Nistelrooy.

All must be said, Ferguson bought aswell some players that didn't seem to triumph in their team, like Heinze for instance, and I don't recall to have seen playing that Korean or CHinese they used to play yesteryear.

So I'm not saying Rafa is perfect, I'm just saying that in order to have a proper understanding and not a skewed one of the spending, you have to look aswell how much Ferguson spent before 2004, and what was the base of team he had in 2004 to build on.

If that's twisting something the facts, let me know.

BTW, did really say Rafa that about the task force back then? oh my. If that's the case he was wrong.

Tompkins and yourself tried to indicate that Ferguson had a good side which he built on whereas Rafa had to start from scratch.

Thats rubbish.....Matchwinners - we had three when Rafa took over Kewell, Gerrard, Owen. We only have two now Gerrard and Torres with Kewell down as a possible.

Remember it was RAFA's PHYSIOTHERAPIST THAT FKD KEWELL UP, BEFORE GETTING SACKED.

I think Gerrard, Carra and Hyypia could be counted as key players since Rafa has been here, and maybe Finnan too seeing as Rafa has never managed to find an adequate replacement for him till this season.

As I say look at the team Houllier left, and look at Rafa's team now. The only "real" improvements have been a goalkeeper, and a stronger squad, not a stronger team.

Same back four,(Agger is certainly not better than the Hyypia of a couple of years ago) Hamann again was a great defensive midfield player and arguably was a better match for Gerrard. Same best player in Gerrard. Owen and Baros against Torres and Kuyt?

As I have and will keep saying £150million spent on players, you can EXPECT improvements.

So all the money that Liverpool spent before Rafa arrived is ignored, but all the money that Ferguson spent before and after Rafa arrived is included - sound fair? Rafa didn't start at Liverpool with nothing FFS.

If you have to look at how much Fergie spent before Rafa arrived, you also have to look at how much Liverpool spent before Rafa arrived or maybe we got Hyypia for free so he doesn't count?

Most of these players you dismiss went unbeaten all season in all cups. Won the FA CUP, UEFA cup, League cup (twice) regularly beat the other top sides, even away(something Rafa has had some difficulty with) and won the champions cup (super cup or whatever its called.)

Most of these players also won the CL under Rafa as well, so they couldn't have been THAT BAD.

and yes he did say that about our strike force.

The mancs finished 3rd the season before Rafa came (we finished 4th) and we managed to beat them at old Trafford. They were hardly some invincible team of superstars.

So yes I think both Tompkins and you are trying to twist the facts to suit your argument.

We had a decent team that was just not good enough. We have spent a lot of money and still have a decent team thats just not good enough. Those are the real facts that matter.

So by that very logic, then, you have to take into account the money Arsenal spent before Wenger's appointment.

And the money Sh*tski spent prior to Moris' arrival.

So what you're basically asking Rafa to do is to win the title against a side that has spent well over £300m on playing staff.

And the difference between us and the Mancs is the fact that Whiskey-nose was buying the players HE wanted.

How can anyone in their right mind expect Rafa to win the title against a man who has spent the following to improve his OWN title-winning side:

£29.1m on a central defender. (A World transfer record at that time.)

£20m on the bench-warmer Owen Hargreaves.

£28.1m On Juan Sabastian Veron, that absolutely brilliant midfielder...

£12.24m on Ronaldo (a substantial fee for a player who was nothing more than a prospect.)

£17m for an attacking midfield prospect called Anderson, who is currently being employed in defensive midfield.

£12.8m on Luis Saha, that oh-so-prolific marksman who currently has 27 goals in 81 appearances. (1 in 3), the exact same as the "pitifully hopeless" Dirk Kuyt, who, having played in England for 7 years less than Saha, also cost c.£3m less.)

£31m for Rooney, who, despite the media frenzy, has a goalscoring record of 1 in every 2 1/2 games. Torres (a nasty Spanish man import from nasty, dirty Spain) cost £10m less, and has a goalscoring record of 1 goal every 1.8 games...

£18.6m for a bit-part defensive midfield player called Michael Carrick, who's main job appears to be challenging Gary Neville's "ugly b*stard" award.

£14m for another "prospect" called Nani, who was signed from a Circus freak-show. He was billed as the "Incredible flipping man."

£3.5m for a Chinese nobody who was obviously bought for increased shirt-sales in the Orient.

£20m-odd for Carlos Tevez.

£18.2m for a Horse-faced striker called Van Nistlerooy.

So where, exactly, does the comparison with Benitez's spending become tenable?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:23 pm

No Lando what I am saying is you can't include Fergusons spending since 1992 to 2008 and then compare it with Rafa's spending since 2004 to 2008 as if Rafa started with nothing.

FFS Rafa started with Gerrard, Carra , Hyypia, Finnan, Owen,Riise, Kewell Hamann. Or do they not count?

I may be wrong (which I'm not) but there is a few quids worth of talent there.

I don't have to take any of Wengers spending into account because I haven't mentioned him in this thread.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:25 pm

s@int wrote:I will continue this in pm as you are obviously struggling to understand. The WHOLE POINT IS ITS ABOUT HOULLIER

Sabre said THAT HOULLIER ONLY LEFT RAFA GERRARD AND CARRA AS KEY PLAYERS, I BELIEVE KEWELL WAS A KEY PLAYER BUT HAS NOT BEEN A KEY PLAYER UNDER RAFA BECAUSE RAFA'S PHYSIO FKD UP. THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH RECENT RESULTS, NOTHING TO DO WITH LETS BLAME RAFA IT WAS TO SHOW THAT IT WASN'T HOULLIERS FAULT THAT KEWELL HASN'T BEEN A KEY PLAYER. IF KEWELL HAD BEEN PROPERLY TREATED BY RAFA'S PHYSIO KEWELL WOULD HAVE BEEN A KEY PLAYER FOR RAFA AS WELL.

pm me and we can discuss it further.

If I wanted to make a rafa bashing post I would be in the Luton thread mate glorying in the draw against Luton.

A million PM's will not convince me that your post regarding "Rafa's physio" is not another cheap shot.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:30 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:A million PM's will not convince me that your post regarding "Rafa's physio" is not another cheap shot.

Take it that way if you want Leon if I wanted to take a cheap shot I wouldn't need to look further than this season mate.

I meant it as I said it.

I have said that I will assess Rafa's season at the end of the season, I haven't changed my mind , have you ?

by **tommycockles** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:34 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:The point I made until you went off on a tangent to try and hide the fact your post was an over reaction was:

[size=10][b]If we had won the last three games there is no way on this planet you would have stated:

Firstly i have to say i'm not siding with anyone and am making a point slightly seperate from this discussion (but close enough to warrant it being here).

Why do people keep saying "if we'd won x game you wouldn't be saying that" - because at the end of the day if we had of won 'X' game we wouldn't be having the discussions we're having. The point is that we aren't winning the games which results in players/managers etc being questioned.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:13 pm

s@int wrote:For me the main argument is not that our players were cr@p when Rafa took over, but that Houllier didn't get the best out of them the last few years. Rafa came in and WON THE CL with mainly those same players. Surely that would be a much better argument? It would also be one I could agree with.

let's be abit realistic here... and here are some facts:

1. We didn't have a team that looked like winning the league under Houllier... except for maybe the beginning of 2002-2003 season when we were top of the league early on and finished 2nd the season before... but as we all know that season crumbled and we finished 5th...

2. Houllier's team already showed that they can win cups... our cup treble season...

3. Rafa inherited Houllier's team and won the CL... what is the CL? it is a cup competition albeit a very hard one to win...

So...rafa inherited a team that doesn't look like it's gonna win the league minus michael owen (probably the most important player of that team)... so yeah rafa did inherit players some of who are still starting (so rafa's player buying policy needs to be questioned abit here.. but he did had to work under less than ideal conditions in terms of fund as well as the board) but nevertheless Houllier's was a team that was nowhere near winning the league...

in comparison ferguson and wenger has already won the league multiple times between them with their squads...

in the mean time... billionaire roman abramovich bought Chelsea FA and spent millions and millions in squad building and won the league 2 times in a row... just when we appointed Rafa Benitez... and then after that man united won it again after being reinforced with wayne rooney and christian ronaldo...

so... ferguson had time and money...wenger had time and the full support of the board... and mourinho had the money... Rafa had virtually nothing that these managers had until now...

I mean come on... I'm not making excuses for Rafa but Ferguson, Wenger, and Mourinho all had advantage over him...that's a fact... in order to catch up and break the stranglehold of Man United, Arsenal and probably Chelsea, he needs more time as well as money...

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:52 pm

maguskwt wrote:
s@int wrote:For me the main argument is not that our players were cr@p when Rafa took over, but that Houllier didn't get the best out of them the last few years. Rafa came in and WON THE CL with mainly those same players. Surely that would be a much better argument? It would also be one I could agree with.

let's be abit realistic here... and here are some facts:

1. We didn't have a team that looked like winning the league under Houllier... except for maybe the beginning of 2002-2003 season when we were top of the league early on and finished 2nd the season before... but as we all know that season crumbled and we finished 5th...

2. Houllier's team already showed that they can win cups... our cup treble season...

3. Rafa inherited Houllier's team and won the CL... what is the CL? it is a cup competition albeit a very hard one to win...

So...rafa inherited a team that doesn't look like it's gonna win the league minus michael owen (probably the most important player of that team)... so yeah rafa did inherit players some of who are still starting (so rafa's player buying policy needs to be questioned abit here.. but he did had to work under less than ideal conditions in terms of fund as well as the board) but nevertheless Houllier's was a team that was nowhere near winning the league...

in comparison ferguson and wenger has already won the league multiple times between them with their squads...

in the mean time... billionaire roman abramovich bought Chelsea FA and spent millions and millions in squad building and won the league 2 times in a row... just when we appointed Rafa Benitez... and then after that man united won it again after being reinforced with wayne rooney and christian ronaldo...

so... ferguson had time and money...wenger had time and the full support of the board... and mourinho had the money... Rafa had virtually nothing that these managers had until now...

I mean come on... I'm not making excuses for Rafa but Ferguson, Wenger, and Mourinho all had advantage over him...that's a fact... in order to catch up and break the stranglehold of Man United, Arsenal and probably Chelsea, he needs more time as well as money...

1/So we didn't have a team that challenged for the league under Houllier, and under Rafa we have spent a lot of money...........and don't have a team that challenged for the league.

2/Houlliers team could win cups, so there must have been some good players.

3/ Rafa won another cup (CL

)

So whats your point, Rafa hasn't challenged for the league since he's been here?

I never said that Fergie didn't have advantages over Rafa but to say that we didn't have very good players when Rafa arrived is wrong. Which is basically what Tompkins and Sabre have said, AND WHICH I HAVE ARGUED AGAINST.

To say that Fergie had a fantastic head start is wrong in my opinion, they were an old team coming to the end. We were a young team just coming into our prime.

They finished 3rd, we finished 4th.

I am not arguing about Mourinho or Wenger, the article was about Ferguson and Benitez.

I believe most of the players Rafa started with were excellent, and probably with a better manager than Houllier would have run the mancs close for third. So they should be taken into consideration not dismissed as having only two key players as Sabre said. If they were that bad, how come after spending £150million pounds on new players they still being picked by Rafa?

As I said I believe Sabre and Tompkins were wrong.

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