Liverpool FC Forum

by **AB's Red Army** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:06 pm

s@int wrote:We can win the league but only if Rafa stops making mistakes like he made today. I have no worries about rotation, but I have worries about him picking a team that has no balance, no creativity and no pace. Alonso, Sissoko, Pennant, Benayoun are unlikey to be rattling goals in away from home. Alonso has probably scored half the goals he will get this season against Derby, and Sissoko has already scored his for this season. Crouch and Veronin were never likely to be the ideal combo up front, and always looked as if they would struggle against 2 strong CB'S like Distin and Campbell.

This game has all the hallmarks of Sheff U away last season, with Rafa seemingly more worried about CL qualification than our league challenge.

No, a point against Pompey is not the end of the world, it just feels like it 3 points today and with a nice run of winnable games to come and we would have been sitting pretty...... Top of the league, games in hand and looking good. A draw .......probably down to 3rd or 4th a run of must win games now and the pressure is back on.

Mistake or no mistake, we had chances to win the game. We didn't take them, even though there weren't many.

I don't understand how Voronin missed that chance five minutes from time.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:20 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
nobybob wrote:you forgot to highlight the ECT in my post thats were the players and the execution on the pitch comes in

Fair enough and that was my assumption. I just find it interesting that, for you (and you are far from alone in this), the blame scale goes like this:

1) Rafa's selections
2) Rafa's tactics

(Both spelled out, I might add)

3) player performance

(under the "et cetera" label that presumably also includes unfair fixture scheduling, bad pitch, dodgy reffing, acts of God, and other sundries)

It just seems to me that there are 90+ minutes for 11 very capable footballers to stamp their authority on the game. If it doesn't happen, they should take responsibility for a big part of that.

I take your point Badbob, but imagine if Rafa had included Gerrard in the starting line up instead of Pennant, Sissoko or Benayoun, he would have immediately have added pace, drive,creativity and more importantly goal threat to the mix. Same if he had played Torres up front instead of Crouch or Voronin.

What was missing today? Pace,drive,creativity and goal threat.

Maybe the players need to shoulder some of the blame for their performances, but I think Rafa sent them into the fight today with one arm tied behind their backs.

Yes the rotation options have improved this season but not to the point where we can leave arguably our 3 best players out (Gerrard, Mascherano, Torres ) Mascherano had to be left out I can understand that, but he should be OK for the CL when his rotation with Gerrard would be more acceptable.

Crouch has looked out of sorts all season, to expect him to come in and sparkle against Campbell and Distin, in a weakened team was a bit optimistic in my view. Torres has been on fire the last few games and scoring so as with Crouch last year leave him out ?

Alonso and Sissoko in midfield isn't a problem in my book, as long as you have the right options in front of them. Even Crouch and Voronin shouldn't be too much of a problem if they have the right options behind them, but to have neither was just a bridge too far.

A bad day at the office for Rafa, hopefully there wont be many more.

That's fair enough, mate. I think you make a very good point about a lack of creativity through the side. If it were me, I would have still had Gerrard and Babel start on the bench but would have gone with Torres up top in place of Crouch. Yes, the big lad was the freshest of the strikers but it was pace not height we needed against their centrebacks.

by **AB's Red Army** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:30 pm

Crouch will cause more problems in Europe than in England. By now most teams know how to defend against Peter.

Perhaps Rafa should had not played Peter against Portsmouth, who have a manager who understands the strengths and weaknesses of Crouch very much so.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:30 pm

This was the first test of the season for us I think. It was a decent result. Upon hindsight it may have been better to play with Torres, Gerrard, Babel etc...from the start to kill off Pompey. I'll settle for a 0-0. Great penalty save from Reina.

by **The Grudge** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:32 pm

AB's Red Army wrote:Crouch will cause more problems in Europe than in England. By now most teams know how to defend against Peter.

Perhaps Rafa should had not played Peter against Portsmouth, who have a manager who understands the strengths and weaknesses of Crouch very much so.

Good point Harry gave him a year and then shipped him out!! :laugh:

by **LittleHobo** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:55 am

I really hope crouch goes in the jan transfer window and another striker comes in (crouch is a good player dont get me wrong, but when he is there (or for england) it turns us or england into a hoof it long team, i watched so many times today us hoof it long aimlessly........30% of our attacks were of this nature today and that is too many

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:31 am

Crouch's weakness is apparent.

He just can't run.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:44 am

Oh well we are still second with a game in hand, could have been worse if Chelsea won I think if they had gone top they would have remained there for the rest of the season.

We should take all 3 points next week against Birmingham whilst Man U & Chelsea play each other hopefully a draw there.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:13 am

Like the team sheet the performance was ordinary to say the least, the first half was replica from performances last season. That was a VERY flat performance, the midfield dissapointed me especially.

Pennant and Benayoun never really got into the game, and the Israeli especially was dissapointing IMO. That was the problem with the midfield and why it almost mirrored last seasons games, because if you dont have the wide men, or in our case they dont show up against a sloppy Pompey team, nothing will come from Midfield in an attacking sense.

I thought Xabi and Momo failed to do what their supposed to do best, pass and tackle respectively. They counldnt even sort their own basic game out, let or lone help out going forward. Misplaced passes, misplaced tackles, wasted free kicks between them conjured into a very poor game for the pair of them.

Pennant Momo Alonso Benayoun

Crouch Voronin

That foward combination and midfield to go with it does look very ordinary indeed, Pennant apart has been our liveliest midfielder this season, but when he's not on song their isent any inspiration their. Sure Yossi has the ability to chip in but he didnt, I have high hopes for Yossi but after watching todays performances I wouldnt mind seeing him come off from the bench in the next few games.

When Crouch is in the team we definately play more direct and although at times his knock downs came off, he never had the support or company of an inspirational teamate to help him out. Reina doing a " Robbo" wasted some many long balls today it was unbelievable. Sol Campbell and Distine at the end of the day had Voronin and Crouch in their pockets, and thrived from the long balls up we were pumping at times.

Saying that though when we did decide to go through the middle and not bypass the midfield with long balls we were equally wasteful and devoid of ideas, Momo kept falling over when ever he got near the eighten yard box, what is it, Kryptonite to him ?

Ontop of that we were lucky not to lose that as Pompey had the better chances, the ones we craved, james only had ONE save to make in the second half, that tells you something doesnt it. Crouch and Voronin combined werent mobile enough and quick enough to cause Pompey trouble all day. Voronin himself worked a couple of openings and half chances, but the quality lacked If he'd of had Torres alongside him all day we may well of undone Pompey.

The subs didnt do too much, Torres livened things up, but by that time Portmouth were confident and Gerrard and Babel never settled into the game.

Lets be honest here Portsmouth were sloppy with their passing and we should of capitalised from it, Benitez's IMO got it wrong with his selection and I said that before the game. At least one of Torres or Gerrard had to start if we were going to claim three points from Fratton Park. The class was missed and it showed.

Two points dropped and pretty pi$$ed off.

BTW Congratulations to the Mods, for being Modded. :pirate

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:47 am

Bm rafa has made the comment that he has 18 players away on international duty so they were tired, i am wondering why gerrard and torres would be any more tired than reina, finnan, agger, crouch, voronin, yossi and alonso. all were away on international duty but were ok to play.

rafa has said it was right to change the players with this in mind. so my question is why would our two most influential players, the 2 players most likely to worry the oppo and create something were warming the bench for the first hour when it became obvious after 20 minutes that the selection wasn't working.

is rafa scared to change early as thats proof he got the starting line up wrong, is it his pride that means he wont change it early? if it is then surely his pride should take second place to the result. i think he is scared of the rotation argument and sticks with a decision (that becomes obvious that it was wrong) to save face and hope that we snatch something to justify his decison.

we could and should have lost that game yesterday, i thought this season he would play one game at a time and treat every game as important without one eye on the european game next week.

the fact remains our 2 most influential players were wasted yesterday, maybe give one a rest, but when he rested 2 we looked clueless.

masherano i can understand, he only arrived back from oz late friday, kuyt i think was more tactical rather than resting him, i think kuyt was dropped, but gerrard and torres i cant understand

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:05 am

Exactly.

I can understand his reasons for "resting" a few, but like you said resting both Gerrard and Torres our two most influential players going foward, just doesnt make sense. Rest one by all means but not them both.

For that team to work and be effective in getting their results at least one of Gerrard and Torres has to play. If anything that match has blown out the water our great theory behind the "strength and depth" in our squad.

Those two are World class players, ones any team would find hard to replace, by all means rest Babel for Yossi, Riise for Arbeloa, Agger for Hyypia, Alonso for Mascha, but not Momo for Gerrard and either or Crouch-Voronin for Torres.

Our squad is better, but not that good we can afford to rest two of our arguably best players.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:26 am

A trip to Pompey isn't the easiest, nor is Porto so Rafa had a tough decision. It's a nasty combination of games, both away and both coming on the back of back to back internationals - not helped by Gerrard being played, although he had been rested for games prior to that. Personally I might have rested players AFTER the Pompey trip, we can afford to lose in Porto and then we should be able to rest players for the Brum game. I think the problem is Rafa is still a little naive and thinks this squad is good enough that he can rest key players and win away (or put another way rotate without consequence)

BUT it is a point, it wasn't defeat although it could easily have been. Last season Pompey lost only three home games and they're unbeaten at home this having played the mancs there (and Arsenal and Chelsea away so they've had a tough start). We are second with a game in hand on most teams below us including the mancs and Chelsea, but Arsenal also have a game in hand although they've played three home games to our two. I hope Rafa doesn't prioritise the CL this season, it would be nice to reach the final or win again, but we can afford to lose a couple of games at the group stage and we really don't want to lose two in six, or even two in twelve, in the Premiership. If we lose to Porto you will have to wonder whether Rafa got it right, with Chelsea drawing and the mancs having already dropped points it would have been a good game to win. We've released a little bit of pressure.

I have to agree with sentiments that Crouch has to go, and have felt for a long time he wouldn't make it as he's yet to disprove. 34 goals in 102 appearances isn't good enough and for me he brings as many bad qualities to the side as he does supposedly good ones. He reminds me of the situation the England cricket team had back in the 90s when they kept including leg spinners (Salisbury, Schofield), slow left armers (Giles, Blackwell, Illingworth) and left arm seamers (Illot, Smith, Mullally, Brown, Taylor) They weren't picked for being the very best bowlers, they were picked because they provided variety and in the end they failed because they weren't good enough. They may have had their good days, but overall they weren't good enough and should not have been picked simply because they were a different option. You may recognise only Giles if you're not a cricket fan, that's because he was cr ap for England in over 50 Tests. He could bat a bit and that's probably what get him so many caps, I guess Crouch has a similar scoring record to Giles' wicket taking record - below par.

Anyway from here on in it gets tougher and the rotation policy will be tested. The next couple of league games aren't too bad, thereafter in the next nine we have Arsenal, Man Utd, Tottenham, Newcastle, Bolton and Everton. We lost to all but Tottenham in the away games last season, thankfully the tougher three are all at home

Next League Fixtures with last season's result

PREM Birmingham (h) n/a
PREM Wigan (a) W4-0
PREM Tottenham (h) W3-0
PREM Everton (a) L0-3
PREM Arsenal (h) W4-1
PREM Blackburn (a) L0-1
PREM Fulham (h) W4-0
PREM Newcastle (a) L1-2
PREM Bolton (h) W3-0
PREM Reading (a) W2-1
PREM Man Utd (h) L0-1

Last season : P10 W6 D0 L4 F21 A9 PTS 18 (out of 30)
(Home P5 W4 D0 L1 F14 A2, Away P5 W2 D0 L3 F7 A7)

We have to aim for 25 points at least I reckon, win the games we did last season and at least draw the games we lost (plus three points against Brum)

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:54 am

LittleHobo wrote:I really hope crouch goes in the jan transfer window and another striker comes in (crouch is a good player dont get me wrong, but when he is there (or for england) it turns us or england into a hoof it long team, i watched so many times today us hoof it long aimlessly........30% of our attacks were of this nature today and that is too many

That’s hardly Crouch’s fault is it? Crouch has proven time and time again that his strength is not an aerial presence but a presence when the ball is played into his feet. You’d think Liverpool/England players would have acknowledged this by now. What was the clubs excuse for using the long ball method before July 2005?

I get the feeling that Crouch will leave at the end of the season. He seems unhappy at not playing regularly, which I can’t say I begrudge him, the lad is an accomplished player and has proven he is more than a fringe player, yet he is treated as such.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:15 am

Just one other note on the penalty incident, I'd really like to see from now on the consistency in reffing for shirt pulling and being penalised in the box for it.

Great save from Pepe btw :buttrock

by **Leonmc0708** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:24 am

peewee wrote:Bm rafa has made the comment that he has 18 players away on international duty so they were tired, i am wondering why gerrard and torres would be any more tired than reina, finnan, agger, crouch, voronin, yossi and alonso. all were away on international duty but were ok to play.

rafa has said it was right to change the players with this in mind. so my question is why would our two most influential players, the 2 players most likely to worry the oppo and create something were warming the bench for the first hour when it became obvious after 20 minutes that the selection wasn't working.

Reina never played.

Finnana never played.

Agger played one game and then 20 minutes of another.

Crouch played 15 mins in total.

Voronin was sub and played only 15 mins.

Benayoun only played one game.

Alonso was sent off after 50 mins and never played in the next game.

Gerrard and Torres played two full games (less 10 mins for Gerrard.

How more obviouis could it be ?

If people wish to bash the boss at every opportunity, it would be best if they where backed up with facts.

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