Liverpool FC Forum

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:30 am

A deserved opening-day away win against a side revved-up by master motivator Martin O'Neill, followed by victory in France in crazy 40º afternoon heat against an up-and-coming side from one of Europe's top five leagues, got the Reds up and running. The first game was full of great attacking play, while the latter was a slower, more tactical affair.

Then came the Chelsea game, where Liverpool laid down a marker in terms of all-round performance against one of the two favourites for the title. Of course, when Chelsea said they were going to play with more style this year, I must have misheard: maybe it was more Styles?

Yes, Rob Styles' decision to award Chelsea a penalty was possibly the most bizarre ever made –– although his later brandishing of phantom yellow cards was up there with it. And yes, the penalty allowed Chelsea back into the game; their only shot on target the entire afternoon Lampard's spot kick.

But it came just a week after Liverpool got lucky against Aston Villa, when Stiliyan Petrov nicked the ball away from Steven Gerrard before the two collided. Of course, it's one thing getting a free-kick 30 yards from goal, where the chances of scoring are probably less than 10% and reliant on world-class execution, to getting a penalty, where eight times out of ten it'll result in a goal.

But all the same, that favourable decision at Villa Park helped Liverpool to get off to a winning start, and without it the Reds would have approached the Chelsea match under a lot more pressure. It would have made it harder to take the game to Mourinho's men, who would have already had a five-point lead having played one more game. So the opening-day win eased a lot of tension.

Having said that, I've never known a more intense must-win opening fixture. Apparently Manchester United were not going to drop a single point this season (––ahem––), and given Liverpool's previous slow starts, anything but a victory would mean the Reds could be out of the title race by 7pm on the opening day! (I don't use exclamation marks often, but that really needs one.)

A draw at Villa Park is rarely a bad result. But having bossed the game and created a hatful of chances –– deservedly taking the lead in the process –– to have then drawn by conceding an unnecessary penalty would have been seen as a case of 'same old Liverpool'. It was a classic 'wind from sails' moment, and indicative of what people saw as the Reds' failings.

Psychologically-speaking, Gerrard then curling home a spectacular late winner was like Olympiakos all over again: the belief-defying (or should that be 'belief inspiring'?) moment when you rub your eyes, pinch yourself, and think 'hang on a minute, maybe it's our year?' There were still 37 games to go, but it seemed symbolic given the context.

Without that wonderful strike the Chelsea game would have seen the insane pre-season pressure carried forward, and possibly doubled. Lose at home to the Blues and Liverpool's title chances would be declared over. Ludicrous, of course, but it might have put up some mental blocks for the players. It won't have helped, certainly.

So despite the disappointment on Sunday, two wins and a draw is the kind of form I'd happily see the Reds take out of every three games this season, particularly as none was an easy fixture on paper.

Perhaps more importantly, all of the new players have looked the part, both as individuals and within the team framework, while the two new strikers both got off the mark in style.

Andriy Voronin, who's won over the doubters already with some very clever pieces of play, hit a spectacular winner against Toulouse. But the pressure wasn't on him; as a free transfer he didn't have any overbearing expectations to deal with.

A few weeks ago I was comparing Fernando Torres to Thierry Henry. Perhaps by doing so I was merely heaping more pressure onto the young man's shoulders. But against Chelsea he showed exactly why I saw similarities. Of course, it just means another 200-odd goals for the Spaniard and a few league-winners' medals for the comparison to prove totally valid.

One goal doesn't put Torres on a par with Henry, but it was a goal few players other than Henry could have scored, and that was its beauty. And it came much sooner than Henry's, with the Frenchman taking many months to adapt to English football. Torres hasn't cracked English football in just eight days, but in his two starts he's shown a lot of qualities, and has had defences panicking.

A bugbear of mine is players being so one-footed they become predictable. It's not so much using only foot, but telegraphing the fact by always taking the ball that side. Tal Ben-Haim knew Torres preferred it on his right foot, so he showed the Liverpool no.9 onto his left. Undeterred, Torres took the invitation and whipped the ball past him in the blink of an eye –– and although he only ever used his right foot in the process, Torres went to the left of the defender.

Had the ball then been more to Torres' left it would have meant a left-foot shot or nothing. In both his league games he's had left-foot attempts, so that's encouraging, and suggests he won't give himself a hernia by trying to somehow shoot with his right foot even when the ball is to the left of him.

But he was so skilful in his bypassing of Ben-Haim it allowed him to use his right foot, and I'll never complain about that. Special players have a way of fooling defenders to work the chance on their favoured foot.

What Torres has done is put that seed of doubt into every Premiership defenders' mind, saying: I may prefer my right, but I will happily go past you on either side. Even if he had horribly fluffed the chance that same message would have been sent. But of course, the finish was Henryesque.

When Torres signed I mentioned how 30 of Kuyt and Crouch's impressive 32 goals last season were from inside the area, but they relied on service: they never carried the ball into the area themselves. What the Spaniard would give the Reds was a player who could collect the ball outside the area and power into it to score. As he did on Sunday with some style.

While it took a further week to get off the mark, I was hugely encouraged by Torres' display at Villa Park. He will miss chances, as he did that day, but he creates so many himself having picked the ball up in neutral positions.

The one where he nutmegged Olaf Melberg reminded me of how in Spain he once went past Frank de Boer in the Barcelona defence to score at the near post. It also had some similarities to his goal against Chelsea.

All three are instances of Torres facing a defender in and around the box, with his path to goal blocked. With Torres standing still, the defender has him where he wants him in every single case –– it's one thing speeding past a player when you're in full-flight, but once you're stopped (or checked your run, as he did against Chelsea) it's ten times harder, especially in the tight space of the box where you can’t afford to overrun the ball. But each time Torres shifted the ball and somehow accelerated past the bemused defender to get a shot in.

While Torres is clearly a powerful runner over 50-yards, he has incredibly explosive pace off the mark. That's devastating when you're within shooting range, as you only need to work that half-yard advantage.

Elsewhere there have been a lot of positives to take. Jermaine Pennant has started last season where he left off, while Ryan Babel's two league cameos have showcased his immense potential. Boy can he hit a ball! (Oops, there's another exclamation mark.)

In the centre of midfield Steven Gerrard appears like he could be entering the form of his life. He's entering his prime, and it's showing.

Last season he played in a few positions –– but unlike the season before (when he did well wherever he started) he never seemed to be at his best in any of them. This year he's begun like a man possessed. The centre is obviously his best position and where he's happiest, but the new strength in wide areas means he no longer has play out there to do something more crucial, namely helping to balance the side.

I'd also like to spare a few words for Dirk Kuyt, who is becoming an unsung hero. His lung-busting workrate continues to make my eyes bleed. I need an oxygen mask just watching him. But his link-up play has also been first-class, and he looks a better, more comfortable footballer in his second season.

He'll never be the next Kenny Dalglish, but his use of the ball in the hole has been both neat and clever, and his partnership with Torres suggests two players on the same wavelength who can exceed the sum of their (not inconsiderable) parts. It's not just how they find each other with passes but the different runs they make. Their movement and combination play for the first goal at Villa was top-class, and Kuyt then showed his cleverness by anticipating the rebound and forcing the own goal.

So on the whole a lot more positives than negatives from the opening week. Let's hope it's a case of the Reds starting how they mean to carry on.

Of course, when Chelsea said they were going to play with more style this year, I must have misheard: maybe it was more Styles?

Ha Ha to true to true

Hes a legand in my books the guy got insight.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:23 am

Well that wasnt a bad read from Thompkins, sometimes I get board with his 'ever so rosey spectacle articles'. But that would pretty much some up my feelings for the first week, and I wholeheartedly agreed on what he said about Torres.

by **mungi** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:05 am

good article. always worth reading tomkins articles

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:37 am

i didnt see any his stuff posted here for last few weeks so i thought i add it we can keep this open for his stuff if you like all just post his stuff here he a top bloke.

by **fivecups** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:39 am

I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:31 pm

fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:40 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:47 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

there wasnt any name calling.

how can some one say some thing like that after he seen him play for our club in 3-4 games he already scored a 20 a season ratio (1 goal 2 games 38/2 is 19 goals give or take 1 thats aroubd 20) so his opinion is base on fiction this is why i said what i said , and thats my opinion.

Is that ok with you ?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:35 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

there wasnt any name calling.

how can some one say some thing like that after he seen him play for our club in 3-4 games he already scored a 20 a season ratio (1 goal 2 games 38/2 is 19 goals give or take 1 thats aroubd 20) so his opinion is base on fiction this is why i said what i said , and thats my opinion.

Is that ok with you ?

Now that's clueless! By that logic Sibierski's going to score a goal a game for Wigan, given that he's managed 3 in 3 games so far. Don't be so daft.

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:43 am

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

there wasnt any name calling.

how can some one say some thing like that after he seen him play for our club in 3-4 games he already scored a 20 a season ratio (1 goal 2 games 38/2 is 19 goals give or take 1 thats aroubd 20) so his opinion is base on fiction this is why i said what i said , and thats my opinion.

Is that ok with you ?

Now that's clueless! By that logic Sibierski's going to score a goal a game for Wigan, given that he's managed 3 in 3 games so far. Don't be so daft.

buts its based on more fact then a random comment saying he dont think he will score 20 when there is more evidence that he will so far.

Plus this total gobsh.it depressing comments i hear every day just get my back up think good things and good things will happy you writing the lad off before he even got 1/10 of the season over ITS NOT ON !!!!

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:10 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

there wasnt any name calling.

how can some one say some thing like that after he seen him play for our club in 3-4 games he already scored a 20 a season ratio (1 goal 2 games 38/2 is 19 goals give or take 1 thats aroubd 20) so his opinion is base on fiction this is why i said what i said , and thats my opinion.

Is that ok with you ?

Now that's clueless! By that logic Sibierski's going to score a goal a game for Wigan, given that he's managed 3 in 3 games so far. Don't be so daft.

buts its based on more fact then a random comment saying he dont think he will score 20 when there is more evidence that he will so far.

Plus this total gobsh.it depressing comments i hear every day just get my back up think good things and good things will happy you writing the lad off before he even got 1/10 of the season over ITS NOT ON !!!!

Given Torres's goal-scoring achievements throughout his career there's actually more evidence that fivecups is right and that he won't score twenty for us. In any event, what's the big deal? He didn't say Torres was rubbish, he said he doubted he'd score 20 goals this season. Certainly doesn't make him clueless and if you'd go back and read a few posts from fivecups you'd probably be a little embarrassed to suggest it.

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:02 am

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
fivecups wrote:I thought he had stopped writing? Anyway, I like Paul Tomkins but thats all too positive for me. Good start to the season so far, and I agree that Torres looks a class act, but I dont see either him or Kuyt scoring 20 goals a season. I think Voronin may turn out to be our most prolific striker if he gets enough games. I think the thing that niggles me is that we should have won the game on Sunday, but we came away with only 1 point whereas chelsea seem to have a habit of picking up points when they dont deserve them. Thats what we have to do. I know the ref was a disaster (Lampard should have had a straight red for the kick on Alonso, as well as everything else) but to challenge for the title we have to take every point we have earnt and some we haven't.

sorry you are just clueless how can you make a statement like that every critic in football cant tell if he will get 20 how can you say he dont look like it when he got 1 goal in 2 games so far give the lad a chance.

Plus rafa said he wasnt looking for his forwards to get 20 he wants them to hit about 15 each.

football is all about opinions lad, and that is his.

If you wish to disprove it go ahead, but if there is no counter argument refrain from the name calling.

there wasnt any name calling.

how can some one say some thing like that after he seen him play for our club in 3-4 games he already scored a 20 a season ratio (1 goal 2 games 38/2 is 19 goals give or take 1 thats aroubd 20) so his opinion is base on fiction this is why i said what i said , and thats my opinion.

Is that ok with you ?

Now that's clueless! By that logic Sibierski's going to score a goal a game for Wigan, given that he's managed 3 in 3 games so far. Don't be so daft.

buts its based on more fact then a random comment saying he dont think he will score 20 when there is more evidence that he will so far.

Plus this total gobsh.it depressing comments i hear every day just get my back up think good things and good things will happy you writing the lad off before he even got 1/10 of the season over ITS NOT ON !!!!

Given Torres's goal-scoring achievements throughout his career there's actually more evidence that fivecups is right and that he won't score twenty for us. In any event, what's the big deal? He didn't say Torres was rubbish, he said he doubted he'd score 20 goals this season. Certainly doesn't make him clueless and if you'd go back and read a few posts from fivecups you'd probably be a little embarrassed to suggest it.

Well i am sure he can fight his own corner badbob .

Torres hasnt scored as many as he should in Spain this is true reasons ?
well last season he played alot of the right wing for his club and the fact that Spain is known for its low top goal scorers.

Not many over there get 20 a season so you cant go on that really and plus his old club gave him not nearly as good service as he will get in this club.

So i hold my ground.

I know he didn't say he is rubbish by saying the lad wont get 20 before he even played 3 games in prem is complete rubbish.

Fans like that , give me the creeps.

How about getting behind him and doing what fans do errr which is Surporting your club and players.

Not writing them off before they even got started.

I know if rafa heard these comment he hold his head in shame.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:05 pm

LegBarnes wrote:Well i am sure he can fight his own corner badbob.
.
.
.
Fans like that , give me the creeps.

How about getting behind him and doing what fans do errr which is Surporting your club and players.

Not writing them off before they even got started.

I know if rafa heard these comment he hold his head in shame.

I've no doubt fivecups can defend himself just fine so I'm not doing it for him--I'm pulling you up because you're out of line and that annoys me.

Rest assured that all of us--bar a few wind-up merchants--do support the club and its players. That doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinion about everything. And, saying that Torres isn't likely to score 20 for us this season is by no means writing him off. Hell, Rafa's basically said the same thing himself so I don't think he's going to heap shame on people on here for having the same opinion.

Look, you've been here for a month, racked up 140-odd posts and you're already calling a respected poster clueless and creepy for stating a perfectly valid opinion. If you don't agree, that's okay. If you want to debate the issue that's fine. But dismissing the input of posters you haven't been around long enough to get to know is bang out of order, in my book. Sort it out. :no

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:30 pm

buts its based on more fact then a random comment saying he dont think he will score 20 when there is more evidence that he will so far.

Evidence based on what? his numbers the last 6 seasons?

No, that can't be. Evidence on what, the excellent goal he scored the other day? It's just one excellent goal, mate.

He won't score 20, IMHO. And I'm not writing him off. When he has a dry patch of 4 weeks without scoring I won't be saying he's a waste of money, nor I am saying he's the next henry, when he has a lot to prove for this club.

He has made this team stronger upwards, he will provide a lot of more than Bellamy, and he might be the best striker of the team with the permission of Kuyt and Crouch, strikers that I respect quite much. Chilling down exagerations is not slashing Torres. I wish he scores not 20, but 30, as much as the next mate.

When we're kids and we have new runners we wear them everyday, and love them until we see the new runners and we start to hate the old ones. That's what happens with Torres. And that will happen at some point with Mascherano. And that happened with Alonso aswell, a more naive player, worse tackler, and less experienced player when he came, yet, he seems to be a worse player now. The kind of praises he received back then were exagerated. So is to say Torres is the next Henry. That makes him no favour.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:37 pm

Runner's Sabre = Trainer's ,or if your scouse , trainee's or trabs lid. :;):

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