Liverpool FC Forum

by **redtrader74** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:11 pm

I looked at that too in an earlier discussion St.Mick, and i can't really see when this 'wholesale change' thing that is so often written happened, most of the unforced changes were 2-3. The teams that played those early games last year were good enough to have won the games, the core players were there, BUT THE PLAYERS DID NOT PERFORM, and that includes Gerrard and Carra. What i don't like is players playing out of postion, Gerrard on the left FFS, that turn SG into an average player.

Rotation is going to happen, its Rafa's method, and it's needed, and even manu were doing it, eg. Ronaldo against the bitters, Rafa is always on about the need to have extremely fit players. Even taking that into account how often were SG, Alonso, Reina, Carra, Agger, Pennant and Finnan really rotated? , i think they all played around 50 games. Its the weaker players that were messed about with more, and this year we have one more player that should be a core 50 game player in Torres.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:55 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:I believe in rotation as well S@int.

I appreciate bigmicks view's but football is evolving and although no-one has won the English League with rotation, Rafa brought it to Valencia and did win the league. Its like when Hansen said you can't win anything with kids and United did. And when Arsenal won the league with loads of foreigners in their team. Times change, clubs evolve.

When Rafa first came to the club he introduced this zonal marking system and everyone (including Andy gray) said it wouldn't work in the Premiership, however after 2 seasons of having the most clean sheets, I beg to differ.

Rafa's rotation in the first season was fine, last year he tried too hard to accomadate everyone.

This season I think he will get it just right.

What worked in La Liga and for Valencia doesn’t necessarily mean it will work for Liverpool and in the Premiership. I avoid mentioning Valencia and Rafa’s past where possible because it’s no indication on what Liverpool or the Premiership.

Rafa was able to rotate with Valencia because the players that replaced the first team players were just as talented and able bodied as the first team players.

Liverpool does not have this commodity. If Rafa takes out Gerrard who does Rafa replace Gerrard with? If Rafa takes off Crouch who is as effective as Crouch in the final third?

by **Big Niall** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:04 pm

Sabre wrote:Rotation would be a travestry if we played once a week.

But quite simply, if you play Tottenhan on saturday, PSV on wednesday, and Bolton again on saturday, you can't play Alonso 3 times and bench Mascherano another 3 times. That's where rotation proves useful.

I don't like overrotation neither, although I've seen some teams working well with massive rotations (Uefa champions Sevilla, uefa semifinalists Osasuna). But I'm not against rotation, on the contrary I think it's good.

Rotation must be planned, but as we've stated more than once, some facts should be respected, if a striker is scoring, don't sit down him and things like that.

Mourinho plays the same team - Lampard plays nearly every game and Chelsea's record over Mourinho's 3 years is unbelievable in the league.

If Chelsea and Manure don't rotate and get results all year long - why should we.

It is bo11ox. :angry:

and Rafa won't make inroads into the huge gulf between the top two and us in the league.

by **stmichael** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:16 pm

Big Niall wrote:Mourinho plays the same team - Lampard plays nearly every game and Chelsea's record over Mourinho's 3 years is unbelievable in the league.

If Chelsea and Manure don't rotate and get results all year long - why should we.

It is bo11ox. and Rafa won't make inroads into the huge gulf between the top two and us in the league.

To suggest that Maureen doesn't rotate is laughable. In his first 123 games in charge at Chelsea he changed the team 117 times. But of course they were winning so nobody ever mentioned it. The same for us when we went on two 11 game winning streaks in the League two seasons ago. We were rotating the side but we were winning so nobody mentioned it.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:35 pm

During our excellent/ record making, run in the league Oct. 2005-May 2006 Rafa rotated in err umm...... EVERY SINGLE GAME, therefore rotating every game can work, and can win. The argument that the players can't build rapport or rhythm is only viable if the players only played together during match time, but they're training together most days. A certain level of rotation is reqiured for success, saying 'play our best 11 in every game', barring injury/suspension, would win us nothing.

by **red37** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:39 pm

We were rotating the side but we were winning so nobody mentioned it.

Aint that the truth. Im all for it, in moderation and when absolutely needed. I.e NOT during the first 8-10 games of a new season. There is next to no chance of building up a meaningful head of steam in that regard. By all means, use the full spectrum of the squads depth, judiciously...but lets hope this year its not done in instances similar to last term when on a whim, a previous promise was honoured out of nothing less (imo) than sheer unwarranted sentimentality. Or, as was evident in the tossing away of the two domestic pots...in favour of the 'all eggs in one CL basket' approach, a la the Arsenal ties. At that point in the season, there was some concern over one or two of the first team's stamina - well fine, then it IS prudent. But not for the seemingly fruitless task of 'having a look at player X or Y' in a crucial point of the League campaign, when in all reality thats the period when it all really did look all like a lost cause...Again. The subject could have been handled so differently, had a little less over-reliance been placed on the shoulders of those not yet ready enough to carry that weight of expectation. Spread like a Cancer in the end...as if it hadn't already been instigated with enough conviction in week one ffs! Time and a place - and an eye for what is truly necessary, as opposed to experimentation too far in, is how i'd like this season to be considered. There is a higher degree of quality throughout the squad now, therefore i don't think we'll see last years fiasco arise this time around. Fingers crossed.

by **stmichael** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:50 pm

red37 wrote:
We were rotating the side but we were winning so nobody mentioned it.

Aint that the truth. Im all for it, in moderation and when absolutely needed. I.e NOT during the first 8-10 games of a new season. There is next to no chance of building up a meaningful head of steam in that regard. By all means, use the full spectrum of the squads depth, judiciously...but lets hope this year its not done in instances similar to last term when on a whim, a previous promise was honoured out of nothing less (imo) than sheer unwarranted sentimentality. Or, as was evident in the tossing away of the two domestic pots...in favour of the 'all eggs in one CL basket' approach, a la the Arsenal ties. At that point in the season, there was some concern over one or two of the first team's stamina - well fine, then it IS prudent. But not for the seemingly fruitless task of 'having a look at player X or Y' in a crucial point of the League campaign, when in all reality thats the period when it all really did look all like a lost cause...Again. The subject could have been handled so differently, had a little less over-reliance been placed on the shoulders of those not yet ready enough to carry that weight of expectation. Spread like a Cancer in the end...as if it hadn't already been instigated with enough conviction in week one ffs! Time and a place - and an eye for what is truly necessary, as opposed to experimentation too far in, is how i'd like this season to be considered. There is a higher degree of quality throughout the squad now, therefore i don't think we'll see last years fiasco arise this time around. Fingers crossed.

It's like the zonal marking debate of recent times. We lose a few games and it becomes the scapegoat, almost to the point of obsession. We go on a ten match winning run and it's the greatest marking system ever produced.

For what it's worth I think that 7-8 places in the side are pretty nailed down for the majority of games with the other 3-4 being up for grabs depending on the opposition. The defence pretty much picks itself and will not change much barring injury, unless we sign a left back before the window closes.

What can be said is that Benitez is well known for his teams finishing the season strongly, there is mounds of evidence to back this up. I always like to think that you play your best 11 at all times but obviously, in the modern game, it would seem that this can no longer be sustained. I agree with you that we shouldn't rotate too much early though, especially as you'll find yourself out of the race before you were ever in it.

by **red37** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:16 pm

What can be said is that Benitez is well known for his teams finishing the season strongly, there is mounds of evidence to back this up.

That point, along with the previous posters observation that our injury record has improved somewhat, in recent seasons (No excuses now HK)! Added to the fact that, two possibly three key positions are yet to be filled with sufficient options to actually facilitate Rotation being used so much more effectively than the present situation allows...and i think we'll then be onto a winning formula. Provided the compromise, or balance is realised throughout the entire campaign. It'll be fascinating to see how that transpires...as well as maintaining forward momentum in the other Key competitions...not an easy task to be held accountable for, and one where the true 'mettle' of Benitez will finally be realised, allowing a 'fairer' assessment overall.

In summary:

Less can therefore, be...more. (the quality of replacement)
Allowing Rafa to play his hand with a better degree of result. Its early days as far as seeing what the manager can do with improved personnel. (We already have seen him augment certain aspects - if not exactly calling it, blood out of a stone) on a limited budget. Now, will be the time to watch him work on a slightly more even playing field. Interesting to see the develpoment over the next 2, 3 seasons in that light.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:53 pm

stmichael wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Mourinho plays the same team - Lampard plays nearly every game and Chelsea's record over Mourinho's 3 years is unbelievable in the league.

If Chelsea and Manure don't rotate and get results all year long - why should we.

It is bo11ox. and Rafa won't make inroads into the huge gulf between the top two and us in the league.

To suggest that Maureen doesn't rotate is laughable. In his first 123 games in charge at Chelsea he changed the team 117 times. But of course they were winning so nobody ever mentioned it. The same for us when we went on two 11 game winning streaks in the League two seasons ago. We were rotating the side but we were winning so nobody mentioned it.

I think the difference between other sides rotating compared to ours, is they will make one or two changes, whereas we are more likely to make 4/5.

I still don't buy this about players needing rests, because the majority of the world stars won't play in the league cup, there's a handy rest. Certain memebers of the side won't be heading off for international duty, there's another handy rest and for god sake they do around 6/7 hours of training a week, all for 90 minutes doing something they enjoy. They get massages every other hour, best eating diets. Players in years gone by never needed rests and they were smoking 40 a day along with 200 pints a week. Players nowadays are a bunch on fairies. Rotation doesn't work and certainly isn't needed as often as it used by Liverpool Football Club. If injuries, suspensions or lack of form creep in the side, then obviously players will be swapped, but you don't swap a winning side.

by **Smeg** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:03 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Smeg wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Personally I think that Rafa blows it in the league by his obsession with rotation. I read him talking about the strikers we have and he said that they all have different strengths and will suit different games so it sounds like another season of rotation.

Ferguson and Mourinho stick to the same strikers nearly every game and I think Benitez will blow the league by September again if we don't have a settled team.

I HATE rotation and think it is plain 100% stupid.

I know many here believe in "trust Rafa" etc but personally I prefer to think for myself.

Who is in favour of rotation and who is against?

We "blow the league" because our players arent as good as Utd or Chelsea's.

Facts are you cant play the same team week in week out now, but yeah when possible we should have our best team out. But for example, we dont need sissoko in at derby county at home,stick Gerrard in the middle and have Pennant and kewell in aswell. Attacking players win you games against like that.

Oh and Utd have Rooney and Chelsea Drogba and Shevchenko, we had Kuyt and bellamy, theres the difference.

Cant see Torres playing less than 30 league games, injuries aside.

Like I've already said, we were able to play the same side week in week out in years gone by, when players weren't as fit as they are now, pitches weren't as good as they are now and tackles were a million times harder and refs were mor leninant than they are now. Also tell me whenever has Ferguson played Rooney/Scholes out of their natural position. Lampard is always played in his best position, so instead of us playing our best player in his best position we put him everywhere else but central midfield. The majority of sides in world football will play practically the same side week in week out bar possibly 1 change. Liverpool are lucky if we have 1 player in the 2 consecutive sides. Rotation doesn't work and it never will if you want to win major honours on a continious basis. We need to get a settled spine of the side, which means Gerrard in the middle and at least 1 settled forward. Back 4 needs to be the same week in week out so they can build up a relationship with one another. Gerrard needs a permanant partner in the middle of midfield. Whoever is 1st choice forward needs a partner he works well with and that's the point of pre-season, try all options. The two wingers also need a run in the side so they can know where and when the forwards will be making their runs. So in a nutshell, ROTATION IS BILLHOOKS.

do you think our best team, with players in their best positions (barring injury) would of won us the title?

by **Smeg** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:08 pm

Big Niall wrote:Personally I think that Rafa blows it in the league by his obsession with rotation. I read him talking about the strikers we have and he said that they all have different strengths and will suit different games so it sounds like another season of rotation.

Ferguson and Mourinho stick to the same strikers nearly every game and I think Benitez will blow the league by September again if we don't have a settled team.

I HATE rotation and think it is plain 100% stupid.

I know many here believe in "trust Rafa" etc but personally I prefer to think for myself.

Who is in favour of rotation and who is against?

06/07

Rooney - 36 games
Ronaldo - 34 games
Crouch - 31 games
Kuyt - 34 games
Drogba - 36 games

by **The_Rock** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:15 pm

Sabre wrote:I don't like overrotation neither, although I've seen some teams working well with massive rotations (Uefa champions Sevilla, uefa semifinalists Osasuna). But I'm not against rotation, on the contrary I think it's good.

Seems only spanish teams do well with massive rotations

by **kunilson** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:27 pm

The_Rock wrote:
Sabre wrote:I don't like overrotation neither, although I've seen some teams working well with massive rotations (Uefa champions Sevilla, uefa semifinalists Osasuna). But I'm not against rotation, on the contrary I think it's good.

Seems only spanish teams do well with massive rotations

could that be because the lesser teams in la liga are so much worse than the top teams? compared to the premier league i mean, and we have to many games that are "competitive"....or is those just excuses.

rotation in small doses is good. not major changes every week. thats how i see it

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:05 pm

I feel like it is important to rotate early, especially because we have so many new signings and all but yossi have played in the prem. It is hard to figure out what to expect from them in games unless you see them in one. Like in another thread, it doesn't seem like we have an obious best XI, although I do agree that several people are clearly in it, but possibly their roles could and will change depending on who is chosen in those other spots. I do not like playing a player that Rafa thinks is not as good just for the sake of keeping the better player fresher for latter in the season, as well as rotation for rotations sake. BUT we do need to find out what our best XI is before we play it week in and week out, and I personally would not be comfortable at all with whatever happens to be Rafa's first pick at a first XI being the one we stick with. I would imagine it would take 4-5 games of trying different theorys of best XIs before being comfortable with saying yep that one, that one is clearly the best.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:30 pm

kunilson wrote:could that be because the lesser teams in la liga are so much worse than the top teams? compared to the premier league i mean, and we have to many games that are "competitive"....or is those just excuses.

Pardon?

La Liga for all is lacks of fluency and acrobatics has far more depth than the Premiership. Levante would give Fulham a football lesson on the pitch. La Liga is very competitive, last season’s late title race was the most exciting spectacle I have seen in a long time.

I’m not sure why rotation is such a success in La Liga, I’ll let someone who has more knowledge with regards to Spanish football answer this question.

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