Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:36 pm

Big Niall wrote:The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Are you serious ?,maybe you forgot about Chechneya, Serbia , Bosnia etc . Maybe your think the carnage in those countries was not related to the dismantling of the USSR and Yugoslavia . Get real.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:46 pm

Big Niall wrote:The Iran leader said something like "he believes that the state of Israel will cease to exist" that doesn't mean bomb it and kill them all.

The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Don't believe Murdock's news. Research the truth yourself.

The USSR split along ethnic lines, and you think there has been no killing? wake up. Yugoslavia also split along ethnic lines, there was a small matter of a war for a couple of years in the nineties. East Germany just amalgamated back into Germany, these people were the same, just that East germany had been 'occupied' by the USSR. The Jews in Israel can not be integrated into neighbouring countries, nor can Israel be split, as it is pretty much one ethic group, so the examples you cite cannot happen in this case.

Lets admit one truth, the vast majority of the population around Israel want it destroyed, they don't want it there, nor do they want any of those people to live there.

The Palestinians have good reason to feel aggrieved as the land they called their own has been occupied, but what i don't get is why the hatred towards Israel from muslims from pakistan, iran, etc etc. Its got fckall to do with them, and even if they believe it to be injustices, why not take the route of diplomacy, why the vitriol, the hatred, the support of terrorism? I have never heard any muslim leaders, or speakers worry about deaths, injustices in Tibet, i never heard of a suicide bomber from Bradford blowing himself up for the sake of the Tibetans in Shanghai.

by **puroresu** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:08 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:The Iran leader said something like "he believes that the state of Israel will cease to exist" that doesn't mean bomb it and kill them all.

The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Don't believe Murdock's news. Research the truth yourself.

The USSR split along ethnic lines, and you think there has been no killing? wake up. Yugoslavia also split along ethnic lines, there was a small matter of a war for a couple of years in the nineties. East Germany just amalgamated back into Germany, these people were the same, just that East germany had been 'occupied' by the USSR. The Jews in Israel can not be integrated into neighbouring countries, nor can Israel be split, as it is pretty much one ethic group, so the examples you cite cannot happen in this case.

Lets admit one truth, the vast majority of the population around Israel want it destroyed, they don't want it there, nor do they want any of those people to live there.

The Palestinians have good reason to feel aggrieved as the land they called their own has been occupied, but what i don't get is why the hatred towards Israel from muslims from pakistan, iran, etc etc. Its got fckall to do with them, and even if they believe it to be injustices, why not take the route of diplomacy, why the vitriol, the hatred, the support of terrorism? I have never heard any muslim leaders, or speakers worry about deaths, injustices in Tibet, i never heard of a suicide bomber from Bradford blowing himself up for the sake of the Tibetans in Shanghai.

The reason being Muslims are not supposed to be divided on grounds of nationality or tribal differences. We are all one body and the plight of palestine and Jerusalem should mean just as much to the muslim in Gaza as it means to the muslim in Karachi.

"The Believers are but a single brotherhood"

(HOLY QURAN: 49:10)

The Prophet says: "The believers, in their mutual frienship,
mercy and affection, are like one body: if any part of
it complains, the rest of the body will also stay awake in pain."

by **Big Niall** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:35 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:The Iran leader said something like "he believes that the state of Israel will cease to exist" that doesn't mean bomb it and kill them all.

The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Don't believe Murdock's news. Research the truth yourself.

The USSR split along ethnic lines, and you think there has been no killing? wake up. Yugoslavia also split along ethnic lines, there was a small matter of a war for a couple of years in the nineties. East Germany just amalgamated back into Germany, these people were the same, just that East germany had been 'occupied' by the USSR. The Jews in Israel can not be integrated into neighbouring countries, nor can Israel be split, as it is pretty much one ethic group, so the examples you cite cannot happen in this case.

Lets admit one truth, the vast majority of the population around Israel want it destroyed, they don't want it there, nor do they want any of those people to live there.

The Palestinians have good reason to feel aggrieved as the land they called their own has been occupied, but what i don't get is why the hatred towards Israel from muslims from pakistan, iran, etc etc. Its got fckall to do with them, and even if they believe it to be injustices, why not take the route of diplomacy, why the vitriol, the hatred, the support of terrorism? I have never heard any muslim leaders, or speakers worry about deaths, injustices in Tibet, i never heard of a suicide bomber from Bradford blowing himself up for the sake of the Tibetans in Shanghai.

Okay. I admit yugoslavia was a terrible example.

My point was that maps change all the time. Where is the Prussia, the ottomon empire, persia etc.

I'm atheist so I don't care about anyone's religion but I think the creation of Israel was the biggest mistake in the world. The jews needed their own state after WW2 as everyone let them down but I think part of Germany should have been given to them as compensation.

The world will never have peace with a jewish state in the middle of what the rest of the region consider sacred muslim land. (whether you agree with the muslim world is another question)

Unfortunately jews have a lot of power in America (even though I think they make up 2% of the population) so nothing that Israel doesn't want will happen.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:38 pm

And because you didn't answer the last sentence, do i assume the next line is and fck everyone else?
And does that brotherhood extend to wrongdoers who happen to be muslim? The 7/11 bombers in London? killing innocents, attacking a country that has given them shelter, and benefits?
It shows why there are always going to be problems with muslims if you only care about other muslims, or always side with those who are muslim, instead of being part of mankind. The attitude is actually Racist.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:48 pm

Big Niall wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:The Iran leader said something like "he believes that the state of Israel will cease to exist" that doesn't mean bomb it and kill them all.

The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Don't believe Murdock's news. Research the truth yourself.

The USSR split along ethnic lines, and you think there has been no killing? wake up. Yugoslavia also split along ethnic lines, there was a small matter of a war for a couple of years in the nineties. East Germany just amalgamated back into Germany, these people were the same, just that East germany had been 'occupied' by the USSR. The Jews in Israel can not be integrated into neighbouring countries, nor can Israel be split, as it is pretty much one ethic group, so the examples you cite cannot happen in this case.

Lets admit one truth, the vast majority of the population around Israel want it destroyed, they don't want it there, nor do they want any of those people to live there.

The Palestinians have good reason to feel aggrieved as the land they called their own has been occupied, but what i don't get is why the hatred towards Israel from muslims from pakistan, iran, etc etc. Its got fckall to do with them, and even if they believe it to be injustices, why not take the route of diplomacy, why the vitriol, the hatred, the support of terrorism? I have never heard any muslim leaders, or speakers worry about deaths, injustices in Tibet, i never heard of a suicide bomber from Bradford blowing himself up for the sake of the Tibetans in Shanghai.

Okay. I admit yugoslavia was a terrible example.

My point was that maps change all the time. Where is the Prussia, the ottomon empire, persia etc.

I'm atheist so I don't care about anyone's religion but I think the creation of Israel was the biggest mistake in the world. The jews needed their own state after WW2 as everyone let them down but I think part of Germany should have been given to them as compensation.

The world will never have peace with a jewish state in the middle of what the rest of the region consider sacred muslim land. (whether you agree with the muslim world is another question)

Unfortunately jews have a lot of power in America (even though I think they make up 2% of the population) so nothing that Israel doesn't want will happen.

I agree with your points there, but no map changing has ever occured without bloodshed, and even then its easier to move around less people, the planets population has doubled i think during the course of the last century. When Israel was formed i think there were around a million Palestinians, so nobody thought they would be a real problem to contain, but with a birth rate of 7 kids per mother the problem has exploded.

Ask any muslim person you know and they hate Israel, so imagine the feeling in the mid east, what would happen to Israel without the support of th US? and btw they get support from other countries too US is admittedly the biggest, they would be destroyed, the situation is shit, the only way to resolve it would be to remove all the Jews, and devolve the nation of Israel, because the people in the region will not allow it to stay, war will ensue sooner or later.

by **kobashi** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:07 pm

an Islamic State in all of historical Palestine would welcome Jews and Christians. Jews were given refuge in Islamic Turkey from the brutality of the Spanish inquisition. when Islam ruled Spain, Christians and Jews lived side by side with Muslims.

Muslims all over the world will always hold Palestine too there hearts. Nationalism is an alien concept in Islam and is something which Muslims should avoid. our religion is much more important than the country we are born in.

Islam does not condone attacks on on innocent civilians like 7/7. Also Islam tells us that we should fight oppression wherever it is in the world.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:05 pm

when Islam ruled Spain

You mean when it occupied Spain??!!

Nationalism is an alien concept in Islam

Really? so why are there so many different muslim countries next to each other? Why did Bangladesh split from Pakistan?

[/quote]Islam does not condone attacks on on innocent civilians like 7/7. Also Islam tells us that we should fight oppression wherever it is in the world.[quote]

Lovely sentiment, but i see no evidence of it. I have no poblem with Islam as a way of life, but do not proport what should be done according to Islam, to what IS being done by Muslims in the name of Islam. You have said Islam said to fight oppression, yet in the same post identified Islam as occupying and OPPRESSING Spain, again the theology is very nice but the action is the opposite. I think you should say the Moors ruled Spain, to say that Islam did is to discredit the religion by showing it is contradictory.

by **metalhead** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:35 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:The Iran leader said something like "he believes that the state of Israel will cease to exist" that doesn't mean bomb it and kill them all.

The ussr, yugoslavia, east germany etc have all ceased to exist without any killing.

Don't believe Murdock's news. Research the truth yourself.

The USSR split along ethnic lines, and you think there has been no killing? wake up. Yugoslavia also split along ethnic lines, there was a small matter of a war for a couple of years in the nineties. East Germany just amalgamated back into Germany, these people were the same, just that East germany had been 'occupied' by the USSR. The Jews in Israel can not be integrated into neighbouring countries, nor can Israel be split, as it is pretty much one ethic group, so the examples you cite cannot happen in this case.

Lets admit one truth, the vast majority of the population around Israel want it destroyed, they don't want it there, nor do they want any of those people to live there.

The Palestinians have good reason to feel aggrieved as the land they called their own has been occupied, but what i don't get is why the hatred towards Israel from muslims from pakistan, iran, etc etc. Its got fckall to do with them, and even if they believe it to be injustices, why not take the route of diplomacy, why the vitriol, the hatred, the support of terrorism? I have never heard any muslim leaders, or speakers worry about deaths, injustices in Tibet, i never heard of a suicide bomber from Bradford blowing himself up for the sake of the Tibetans in Shanghai.

Okay. I admit yugoslavia was a terrible example.

My point was that maps change all the time. Where is the Prussia, the ottomon empire, persia etc.

I'm atheist so I don't care about anyone's religion but I think the creation of Israel was the biggest mistake in the world. The jews needed their own state after WW2 as everyone let them down but I think part of Germany should have been given to them as compensation.

The world will never have peace with a jewish state in the middle of what the rest of the region consider sacred muslim land. (whether you agree with the muslim world is another question)

Unfortunately jews have a lot of power in America (even though I think they make up 2% of the population) so nothing that Israel doesn't want will happen.

I agree with your points there, but no map changing has ever occured without bloodshed, and even then its easier to move around less people, the planets population has doubled i think during the course of the last century. When Israel was formed i think there were around a million Palestinians, so nobody thought they would be a real problem to contain, but with a birth rate of 7 kids per mother the problem has exploded.

Ask any muslim person you know and they hate Israel, so imagine the feeling in the mid east, what would happen to Israel without the support of th US? and btw they get support from other countries too US is admittedly the biggest, they would be destroyed, the situation is shit, the only way to resolve it would be to remove all the Jews, and devolve the nation of Israel, because the people in the region will not allow it to stay, war will ensue sooner or later.

No, we don't want to throw any jew out, for all i know there are alot of palestinian jews. Israel shouldn't exist, it should be Palestinian government where jews, muslims and christians living together by non-religious law. You have to differentiate between zionism and jews, they are both different concepts.

The terrorists who are doing the killings and saying it in the name of islam is a fallacy. Clearly they have interpreted their own religion wrong. They are murderers and cowards.

by **zarababe** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:57 pm

red37 wrote:
zarababe wrote:the 'salmon'

ive tried that joke already. These lads are far more interested in boring enlightening the rest of us thicko's about current world affairs.

what a serious bunch we have on here - have ya tried grilled salmon Red

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:04 pm

metalhead wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Funny how it's only the that U.S. takes criticism from you. Iran get away with saying they want Israel wiped off the map, Iran get away with supporting the Iraqi insurgency. Syria and Iran get away with meddling in Lebanon yet you only criticise the U.S.

Saddam is responsible for himself and only himself, the only criticism of the U.S. is that they supplied him weapons in the 80's, nevertheless, the monstrous acts of violence he authorised are down to him alone and only him - not the U.S. The U.S did not create the monster that was Saddam, he created it himself.

As for Sudan, which other countries have been doing much about it? Yet again the U.S. alone get the blame, what about middle-eastern countries, why can't they help out?

So we stay out of Afghnaistan is what you are saying aswell? Let al qaeda breed terrrorists who attack civilization as a whole? You haven't said of an alternative to Afghanistan.

1) There is no evidence that Iran is meddling in Lebanon, NO evidence. The Lebanese government is a U.S puppet! they take orders from the U.S, and actually the Prime minister himself said that lebanon can't do anything without U.S help.

2) LFC2007, whats the difference if you went to afghanistan or not? ok the NATO forces are there, but have they at least wiped out 50% of terrorisim in the region? I think barly 2 or 3%! so what are they waiting for? Al-quada and Taliban are still flourishing and no one is stopping them. I'll say this again, You can't send an army to destroy a terrorist organization! YOU CAN'T! it doesn't work! The only way is to send individuals (secret agents) to infeltrate such organizations. Using secret intelligence you can defeat extremist terrorist organization. Look what happened to Israel, they send a whole army to wipe out hizballah, who aren't terrorists FACT, but a resistance organization, well israel forces failed misrably!

3) Also, you shouldn't call arab government muslim government, they aren't muslim government except for 2 or 3 countries, you can say Arab government.

Everyone is meddling with each other, all of them want whats best for them. This is a U.S-Iran conflict, and they are using small countries to their advantage. I don't want my country to turn into a battlefield.

1) There is evidence that Iran are meddling in Lebanon, Hezbollah has links to Iran, I could say the same about the U.S. and their alleged meddling with Fatah. Some choose to not balance it up since they are so AVIDLY anti-western.

2) Afghanistan was being used as a MASS training camp for terorists, it was well known that many terrorists have been trained there who have subsequently udertaken murderous attacks. You have to stop it. Intelligence will not bring down a terrorist organisation, they are so closely nit and so suspicious of any outsiders that it is almost a non-starter. Maybe in hiomegrown terror groups it's possible to infilitrate, but in Afghanistan their territory - it rarely if ever was going to happen. An army will never destroy Al qaeda, but they will limit the extent to which they can openly train terrorists and breed a terrorist nation in Afghanistan, limiting the spread of terrorism.

3) I shouldn't say Muslim gov't just, a nuance, just like you shouldn't generalise the "west".

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:13 pm

puroresu wrote:So its ok for the US to provide weapons to a terrorist state who's existance was built on the back of terrorists. A state which continues to occupy other people's land. Yet its not ok for the Iraqi people to resist an invasion by the US and British forces? It does not matter where the resistance gets there weapons. Even under the UN Charter an occupied people have the right to self determination and a right to resist occupation.

There's your bias in a nutshell "terrorist state". There are plenty of terrorists in Palestine, it's a shame there is no balance to your views.

The British forces are there with the mandate of the Iraqi government and the U.N. So legally you fall down in your argument saying the people have a right to resist the occupier, they are not considered an occupier by the U.N. Just as you are recognising the U.N. charter - who I'm sure you'll now rubbish as a "puppet organisation" or something - I can recognise the facts that you allude to.

It's not the Iraqi people resiting, it's insurgents, largely the remnants and supporters of the Ba'ath party, along with some Shia militia and Al qaeda. The Israeli gov't is not a paramilitary organisation, Iran are supporting paramilitary groups who murder people intently, their specific goal is to murder as many people as possible. At the very least Israel has an interest in some kind of stability, they may respond to Palestinian bombings disproportionately, but in recent times evn last week Palestinians in lebanon fired rockets across the border with no response from Israel - at least that is a mark that they are beginning to show a little restraint. So yes, there is a hell of a difference in your argument.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:16 pm

kobashi wrote:also you don't feel the resistance in iraq has a right to fight occupation so what about the resistance groups in France who were blowing up trains, cafe's etc in WWII.

these are seen as hero's. do you think they were wrong?

That was the Nazi's and what a cra,p comparison, by inference I take it you are suggesting Bush is a modern day Hitler and he intends to take over the world and kill as many people in the process. Get real, the comparison falls flat on its backside.

by **kobashi** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:50 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
kobashi wrote:also you don't feel the resistance in iraq has a right to fight occupation so what about the resistance groups in France who were blowing up trains, cafe's etc in WWII.

these are seen as hero's. do you think they were wrong?

That was the Nazi's and what a cra,p comparison, by inference I take it you are suggesting Bush is a modern day Hitler and he intends to take over the world and kill as many people in the process. Get real, the comparison falls flat on its backside.

Who said anything about Bush being Hitler. Occupation is occupation no matter how you dress it up.

Why is it okay for the French to resist Nazi Germany, The British to travel thousands of miles and go and fight in the Falklands for a small piece of land but when the Muslims in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine resist occupation it is not allowed.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:58 pm

kobashi wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
kobashi wrote:also you don't feel the resistance in iraq has a right to fight occupation so what about the resistance groups in France who were blowing up trains, cafe's etc in WWII.

these are seen as hero's. do you think they were wrong?

That was the Nazi's and what a cra,p comparison, by inference I take it you are suggesting Bush is a modern day Hitler and he intends to take over the world and kill as many people in the process. Get real, the comparison falls flat on its backside.

Who said anything about Bush being Hitler. Occupation is occupation no matter how you dress it up.

Why is it okay for the French to resist Nazi Germany, The British to travel thousands of miles and go and fight in the Falklands for a small piece of land but when the Muslims in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine resist occupation it is not allowed.

That is the CLEAR inference you make, you're making out that any occupier is the same when there is a DISTINCT difference between Nazi Germany who wanted to take over the ENTIRE world and who killed 6 million jews and the Americans who are trying to improve the stability in the middle east - if partially to their own benefit i.e. oil contracts.

It's just a stupid argument to compare our British forces to Nazi occupying forces, it's a joke of a comparison and shows a lack of any basic understanding of the issues.

As for the Falklands, again, a typical piece of anti-British bigotry.

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