Liverpool FC Forum

by **ivor_the_injun** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:52 pm

The "Rafa to resign" thread is going out of control, and well over half the posts are absolutely nothing to do with the rumour.

So, please keep any opinions on Rafa as a manager to a separate thread. They're all worthy opinions, just misplaced in a thread that was started because a source-less rumour has hit LFC forums today.

My tuppence-worth - I think Rafa has been a revelation since arriving at the club, although he hasn't yet assembled a squad good enough to compete on all fronts. This has meant that his policy of rotation has often failed because many of our back up players are well short of first 11 standard.

Anyone? :laugh:

by **Sabre** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:40 pm

I agree. I also think that the fact that peoples asks for the league title and even not losing the CL final is a proof of how much has grown LFC under Rafa. Rafa's brought back LFC to the spot that he always had in Europe, and if some people that write too much bóllocks let him work, he'll bring the league title aswell.

by **Rupi** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:02 pm

Rotation policy is IMO a good thing when you're competing in all fronts: Premiership, CL and domestic.

But with the players he had this season, the rotation couldn't make 2 competitive teams. Chelsky or ManU can use rotation because they have a world class bench.

We have a world class "start eleven", with one world class striker missing... But it's obvious that we haven't the same qualities on the bench than our rivals.

I agree with ivor when saying that if Benitez be given the money to assemble a team that he want, we could be on fire and win the premiership within the next two years.

So please bring on a top class striker and some good competitive wingers...

by **account deleted by request** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:33 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:The "Rafa to resign" thread is going out of control, and well over half the posts are absolutely nothing to do with the rumour.

So, please keep any opinions on Rafa as a manager to a separate thread. They're all worthy opinions, just misplaced in a thread that was started because a source-less rumour has hit LFC forums today.

My tuppence-worth - I think Rafa has been a revelation since arriving at the club, although he hasn't yet assembled a squad good enough to compete on all fronts. This has meant that his policy of rotation has often failed because many of our back up players are well short of first 11 standard.

Anyone?

If it was lack of quality players that made his rotation policy fail, why then did it, with the same players and rotation, work in the home games but not the away games?

If Rafa knew that it was the rotation policy that was causing our team to fail due to a lack of quality players to rotate, why did he continue to rotate in Europe if that was his priority. Surely he could have just rotated in the league, especially as we went out of both domestic cups early.

As for the Champs league final, I actually think his tactics were spot on in the first half , and I am quite confident that if we had got the first goal we would have won. My only gripe was he was slow to react to a changed situation and didnt throw on his subs earlier.

In my opinion he has done more than enough to earn our faith that he will get it right

by **LFC2007** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:10 pm

s@int wrote:If it was lack of quality players that made his rotation policy fail, why then did it, with the same players and rotation, work in the home games but not the away games?

I think we've gone over this before in other threads, but away games are different to home games.

Maybe it's a question of mentality, confidence etc...

Hence, why he said we need players with more "character".

by **Emerald Red** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:27 pm

I always maintained that Rafa with average team can perform miracles; but give the man money and he will build something truely worthy of greatness. Key word: time.

by **stmichael** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:30 pm

Emerald Red wrote:I always maintained that Rafa with average team can perform miracles; but give the man money and he will build something truely worthy of greatness. Key word: time.

I agree and it all boils down to Parry imo.

Rafa's sick of asking Parry to do things, and him not doing them. Whether it's faxing bids to clubs (one rumour was that we missed out on Vidic because Parry took over a week to fax a bid after Rafa had agreed a deal), negotiating fees with clubs/agents, sorting out new contracts for existing players (months ago Rafa told Parry he wanted a certain player's contract to be sorted out before all the others, and as yet the player's agent is still waiting to be contacted as Parry has made other players HIS priority despite Rafa's wishes), Rafa has had enough of seeing Parry not getting the job done.

The working relationship has more or less broken down. It's not a sudden thing either, Rafa's been unhappy about the way Parry does things for a long time. Maybe it's not all Parry's fault, and Rafa is to blame for some things, I don't know as I've only really heard the one side of the story.

Thing is, it doesn't really make a difference, as if they can't work together one has to go, and it's not going to be Rafa, is it?

by **account deleted by request** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:31 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
s@int wrote:If it was lack of quality players that made his rotation policy fail, why then did it, with the same players and rotation, work in the home games but not the away games?

I think we've gone over this before in other threads, but away games are different to home games.

Maybe it's a question of mentality, confidence etc...

Hence, why he said we need players with more "character".

Which is exactly my point, I think its too easy to just blame it on rotation, I think there were numerous reasons why we didn't make a challenge in the league, including mistakes by Rafa.People seem happy to find one good excuse and use it to excuse or overlook all the other failings. Zonal marking was the last one, now we have rotation.

by **Effes** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:47 pm

Rafa says hge's gonna concentrate on the League next season, so maybe we will see some new approach, time will tell.

Our home form was League-winning form; so it all boils down to our away form as far as Im concerned.

One ingredient that everyone agrees is needed to win the league is consistency.
Surely rotation makes the consistency twice the hurdle it really is.
But Im not sure Rafa will curb his rotation policy.
Is 3pts in Sep less than 3pts in April?

Forgetting that, there were some really anaemic performances away from home where rotation policy was not to blame.
I always think to have a decent away form you must have the right mentality - Rafa doesn't instill this menatlity IMO. Too much waffle on tactics.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:11 pm

s@int wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
s@int wrote:If it was lack of quality players that made his rotation policy fail, why then did it, with the same players and rotation, work in the home games but not the away games?

I think we've gone over this before in other threads, but away games are different to home games.

Maybe it's a question of mentality, confidence etc...

Hence, why he said we need players with more "character".

Which is exactly my point, I think its too easy to just blame it on rotation, I think there were numerous reasons why we didn't make a challenge in the league, including mistakes by Rafa.People seem happy to find one good excuse and use it to excuse or overlook all the other failings. Zonal marking was the last one, now we have rotation.

Nail on head. It was a complex series of factors, with rotation one piece of a much larger puzzle. And the blame--if we want to get into assigning it--goes to everyone involved, from Rick Parry, to Rafa to the players.

The bottom line for me is that we started poorly for a number of reasons and our title challenge was dead in the water one month into the season. Conversely, Man U started very strong and rode that momentum for the rest of the season (in addition to their luck because, despite what someone suggested above, they most certainly do not have a world class squad and could have been derailed if their injury problems had cropped up earlier).

Let's hope that all involved--the owners, Parry, Rafa, the players--pull together to get us out of the blocks much faster next season. That work starts now, with signing quality players quickly (like the Mancs are doing). It continues through the pre-season, which we can't afford to squander like we did last summer. And it peaks in August/September, with Rafa and the players working in concert to charge out of the gates in full stride, building momentum by winning matches. If we can get that early push, the belief will be there and the momentum will continue to build. If we phaff about, it'll be over in the blink of an eye and the knives will be out.

by **The_Rock** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:50 pm

Sabre wrote:I agree. I also think that the fact that peoples asks for the league title and even not losing the CL final is a proof of how much has grown LFC under Rafa. Rafa's brought back LFC to the spot that he always had in Europe, and if some people that write too much bóllocks let him work, he'll bring the league title aswell.

History lesson...

U seem to forget we won the treble under houllier and even were runners-up the following season. We were not a "mug" team then.... we were even one of the favourites for the league in 2002/2003 season...So all this talk about fans only wanting the league title under rafa's management is really.....(i hate to be so blunt sabre but...) is bull$hit. As far as i know, our fans always wanted the league title every season.... under houllier.....roy evans and even souness. This is liverpool...not ever$hit. So i have to take issue with your statement that because of rafa...liverpool is among the top 4 sides in this league.... Its not because of rafa....Liverpool were always among the top teams in england and europe...

Another point i am making is.....houllier also brought LFC almost to where we belong....But he made pi$$ a$$ signings (and not signing anelka).... and that cost him his job.

Houllier's biggest problems when he managed here was the he bought a lot of players who were good in the french league...but they couldn't do it in england. And then there is his famous counter-attacking defensive tactic...... Does this sound familiar ?

More similiarities.....
1)Rafa got us the champions league....(similar to the treble in 2001)

2)And a FA cup and a pretty good premier league finish last season (similar to the runners up position in 2002)...

3)Initally the football played under rafa was interesting...lots of goals were scored...our defence was water tight....But as the seasons go...our football seems to lack any conviction, looks very blunt....not at all pretty to look at. In a nutshell, we have become boring under rafa...(similar to houllier's last 2 seasons with us)

Don't get me wrong..while i ain't rafa's biggest fan...i still think he is the man most likely to get us sucess in premierleague and europe.

The reason why i am so tough on him...is that he is that damn good..... Yes, he is a genius...but sometimes he makes $hitty decisions which is obvious to everyone except himself (rotations, buying players not suited for this league...etc). Sometimes, he has to understand the football is a simple game...Put your strongest 11 out and beat all those in front of you. No need to ponder on the strength of our opponents....

by **LFC2007** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:26 pm

The_Rock wrote:
Sabre wrote:I agree. I also think that the fact that peoples asks for the league title and even not losing the CL final is a proof of how much has grown LFC under Rafa. Rafa's brought back LFC to the spot that he always had in Europe, and if some people that write too much bóllocks let him work, he'll bring the league title aswell.

History lesson...

U seem to forget we won the treble under houllier and even were runners-up the following season. We were not a "mug" team then.... we were even one of the favourites for the league in 2002/2003 season...So all this talk about fans only wanting the league title under rafa's management is really.....(i hate to be so blunt sabre but...) is bull$hit. As far as i know, our fans always wanted the league title every season.... under houllier.....roy evans and even souness. This is liverpool...not ever$hit. So i have to take issue with your statement that because of rafa...liverpool is among the top 4 sides in this league.... Its not because of rafa....Liverpool were always among the top teams in england and europe...

Another point i am making is.....houllier also brought LFC almost to where we belong....But he made pi$$ a$$ signings (and not signing anelka).... and that cost him his job.

Houllier's biggest problems when he managed here was the he bought a lot of players who were good in the french league...but they couldn't do it in england. And then there is his famous counter-attacking defensive tactic...... Does this sound familiar ?

More similiarities.....
1)Rafa got us the champions league....(similar to the treble in 2001)

2)And a FA cup and a pretty good premier league finish last season (similar to the runners up position in 2002)...

3)Initally the football played under rafa was interesting...lots of goals were scored...our defence was water tight....But as the seasons go...our football seems to lack any conviction, looks very blunt....not at all pretty to look at. In a nutshell, we have become boring under rafa...(similar to houllier's last 2 seasons with us)

Don't get me wrong..while i ain't rafa's biggest fan...i still think he is the man most likely to get us sucess in premierleague and europe.

The reason why i am so tough on him...is that he is that damn good..... Yes, he is a genius...but sometimes he makes $hitty decisions which is obvious to everyone except himself (rotations, buying players not suited for this league...etc). Sometimes, he has to understand the football is a simple game...Put your strongest 11 out and beat all those in front of you. No need to ponder on the strength of our opponents....

I think you misunderstood Sabre's post.

"Rafa's brought back LFC to the spot that he always had in Europe"

Rafa has taken us back to a level in Europe that we never came remotely close to under Houllier, i.e. Rafa has enhanced our reputation and somewhat revived our reputation as a massive club.

Granted, every Liverpool fan knows of our history, they know we should be challenging for the league every year, but the reality is that under previous managers, such as Souness and Evans, we were no where near competing in the league or Europe, Houllier revived us somewhat but Rafa has take us the next step further IMO.

As for Rafa making "sh!tty decisions", the guy isn't infallable, nor is any other manager, but put it in perspective.

"which is obvious to everyone except himself (rotations, buying players not suited for this league...etc). Sometimes, he has to understand the football is a simple game"

Don't you think he realises his mistakes?

On the rotation point, I'd agree that in the league he chopped and changed too much, but some situations were forced on him e.g. Aurelio/Gonzales playing left mid due to injuries to Riise and Kewell early on.

As for buying players not suited to this league, doesn't every great manager get this wrong from time to time?

Ballack, Schevchenko

Kleberson, Djemba djemba, Veron

Reyes, Jeffers

?

Don't you think Rafa is aware of where we need to improve and HOW we need to improve?

by **kunilson** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:29 pm

ive always wanted the league title. bread butter and strawberry jam and all that.

as for rafa's management. i think his record so far is impressive, in terms of the league its not as if it is shocking, but not as major an improvement as in cups which is why it seems worse than it is....cant wait for real news to comment on.

by **Sabre** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:49 pm

Thanks for putting my point in better english LFC2007

History lesson...

U seem to forget we won the treble under houllier and even were runners-up the following season. We were not a "mug" team then.... we were even one of the favourites for the league in 2002/2003 season...So all this talk about fans only wanting the league title under rafa's management is really.....(i hate to be so blunt sabre but...) is bull$hit. As far as i know, our fans always wanted the league title every season.... under houllier.....roy evans and even souness. This is liverpool...not ever$hit. So i have to take issue with your statement that because of rafa...liverpool is among the top 4 sides in this league.... Its not because of rafa....Liverpool were always among the top teams in england and europe...

I appreciate the history lesson, but I don't need it, there's a lot of info available in the internet about LFC and I've spent much time reading it. Some of it really ancient, I loved how LFC also was relegated and how with pride they went to the top division again.

LFC has a lot of things to be proud of.

And even before I accessed all this internet info mate, LFC was famous around the world. When my local team was champion of Spain, and reaching Europe semi-finals and quarter of finals, LFC was dominating Europe. It was fúcking famous. The people associated Liverpool and football overseas. Word Wide Famous. You didn't need to read about LFC in papers, you heard about them in the street.

And Rafa has brought Liverpool to that heights AGAIN in Europe.

And the other point of my point, is that he'll bring the league aswell, once he gets what him and Pako say they need.

I know how big was Liverpool under Souness, Evans, and Houllier aswell, mate. In those years, Liverpool was not heard in the streets of Spain, and I had to know about them looking for them in the international part of the footie newspapers, in small articles. My mates in the uni, joked on my passion about LFC, and said to me "Manchester is better" this years. I told them to fúck off of course. And when my finger pointed the standings table, I had to find LFC in fifth and sixth places more often than I liked. I didn't see my English team in Europe shining, neither. That's my perspective of how things has changed. When I go to the street now I see kids with Liverpool shirts again. I hear people mentioning Liverpool again in footie chats. In a nutshell, LFC is where should have been always.

The Uefa title was like an oasis in the desert for me. It was like reminding old good times, and being closer to win the league was aswell like coming to the old times. But I think this is the real LFC come back. The one that will bring LFC to their definitive place after more than a decade of not that great performances.

Now, we need the league, but I think there has been a progress since those years I've described. If that's bulshít, ok, but it will still be my honest opinion

by **LFC2007** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:55 pm

Sabre I love the way you have picked up all the english cliches!

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