Liverpool FC Forum

by **eds** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:09 am

A win against the Scum will do for starters...........

:eyebrow

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:26 am

Big Niall wrote:I would settle for the manager knowing who his best 11 are and playing them, maybe even for the players getting to know who the guy beside them is.

Changing the team every game for nearly a hundred games is stupid. You don't see Wenger doing that.

Until we do that, you can forget about the league.

Besides the league and the champions league, I don't care too much about the minor trophies.

With all due respect mate, Wenger didn't win the Champions' League and FA Cup in his first two seasons at Arsenal.

It takes time, and I can't believe people slate Rafa after all he's given us.

Here's a moot nugget for you all to ponder:

Rafael Benitez is the best manager in the World bar none, IMHO.

So if HE isn't good enough for you - who the f*cking f*ck do you want instead? Martin O'b*starding Neill? Don't make me f*cking laugh.

Rotation is the way forward - simple as that. You might not like it, you may not have been brought up on it as a kid, and you may be reluctant to accept something so "foreign" to you;

Well tough f*cking titties, because it's the only way to compete nowadays with the cash Sh*tski have got. (It's no coincidence that all but 1 of our victories against those b*stards have come at the a*se-end of the season, you know.) It's the very British lack of forward thinking that has held English football back since LFC whipped everyone's a*ses with it's new style of football in the '70's.
When Shankly introduced his style to LFC, there were no doubt similar voices of disapproval;
"It'll never work", "The passing game doesn't suit English football", "Just hit it long to the centre Forward", "Play so and so in such and such a position".

Well he shut them up good and proper, didn't he?

SHankly wasn't always a god, you know. There must have been plenty of fans with more dissent for him than Rafa now.

Open your minds and accept that Rafa is a visionary, and unless you show some f*cking trust, we'll lose the most gifted manager of the last 20 years.

All that is stopping the fans from realising we are about to see a new period of dominance from LFC is narrow-minded pig-headedness.

Every single time Rafa has been doubted, he's made his detractors look like fools. "Zonal marking won't work in the Premiership." - So why did it reap a record amount of clean sheets, then, you thick c*nt?

"He doesn't have what it takes to beat the top teams" (An accusation levelled at him by numerous "know-all" pundits) - so he won the Champion's LEague, beating all but 1 of the top teams on the way, then just for good measure, tw*tted the scum and SH*tski out of the FA cup last season. (And before anyone starts - every champion has luck on their side.)

"He can't get to grips with the Premiership" - so he racks up a record points haul in his second season.

This current blip is exactly the same - you watch - you'll all look like pr*cks when he wins the Premiership, and there are thousands of posts with "rotation doesn't work" as their main point.

You know what? I f*cking hate International football, but the British fixation with tradition is killing any chance we have of winning a tournament. "Must be 4-4-2" "Play the same team every game", "Must have 2 strikers up front", "Must have this, must have that", etc...

THAT is why England never win a f*cking competition - because "rotation (and everything else Mr f*cking Dimpleby didn't use when coaching the Nameless Comprehensive School's U14's team in 1965) doesn't work in the Premiership".

Yeah right.

The only reason it doesn't work is because no one is willing to give it the time it requires.
If you all know so much - take your UEFA coaching badges and start managing - I'm sure someone with all that knowledge will soon land a top job. :no

Bottom line?: Stop moaning about rotation folks - it's here to stay. :nod

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:45 am

Well you couldn't have given a more robust defence of the rotational system if you tried Lando, and fair play to you for that. Needless to say I broadly disagree but that's what forums are for.

I would just make a couple of points. Firstly it seems to me that you are implying that the anti-rotation movement is a British thing and I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. There are many foreign managers in the Premiership and none of them rotate as much as Rafa. The other point and I know I'm repeating myself here, is that pretty much nobody to the best of my knowledge is suggesting you play absolutely the same team in every single game. The suggestion is that making four, five or six changes each time the team lines up (in one game apparantly we made eight changes!) is not conjusive to a team finding some fluency and cohesion.

Me and you have pretty much been on the opposite side of the fence from day one on this one mate I think. I remember after the Sheffield United draw I felt it was much more of a significant result than you did at the time, and no doubt I still do. That for me along with the Haifs home game was a classic example not of rotation, but of silliness and over-tinkering. I still feel we are paying the price for that folly in terms of the fact we lost a golden opportunity to build up momentum, even now.

The two points in which I would firmly agree with you are in your assessment of rafa as a manager and in your judgement as to how any of us know-alls on here would do in the managerial job market. Rafa very probably is the best manager around today, and none of us would get a job in football.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:00 am

Me and you have pretty much been on the opposite side of the fence from day one on this one mate I think. I remember after the Sheffield United draw I felt it was much more of a significant result than you did at the time, and no doubt I still do. That for me along with the Haifs home game was a classic example not of rotation, but of silliness and over-tinkering.

The Sheffield game you keep bringing in up Mick is not only well and truly in the past, but its the only point we have gained on our travels this season. For what its worth I thought it was a good point, and the team selection that day hasn't had that much of a significant effect on our poor run of form. What has IMO is the point your picking up on and thats the rotational side of things since.

by **Espionage** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:09 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Big Niall wrote:I would settle for the manager knowing who his best 11 are and playing them, maybe even for the players getting to know who the guy beside them is.

Changing the team every game for nearly a hundred games is stupid. You don't see Wenger doing that.

Until we do that, you can forget about the league.

Besides the league and the champions league, I don't care too much about the minor trophies.

With all due respect mate, Wenger didn't win the Champions' League and FA Cup in his first two seasons at Arsenal.

It takes time, and I can't believe people slate Rafa after all he's given us.

Here's a moot nugget for you all to ponder:

Rafael Benitez is the best manager in the World bar none, IMHO.

So if HE isn't good enough for you - who the f*cking f*ck do you want instead? Martin O'b*starding Neill? Don't make me f*cking laugh.

Rotation is the way forward - simple as that. You might not like it, you may not have been brought up on it as a kid, and you may be reluctant to accept something so "foreign" to you;

Well tough f*cking titties, because it's the only way to compete nowadays with the cash Sh*tski have got. (It's no coincidence that all but 1 of our victories against those b*stards have come at the a*se-end of the season, you know.) It's the very British lack of forward thinking that has held English football back since LFC whipped everyone's a*ses with it's new style of football in the '70's.
When Shankly introduced his style to LFC, there were no doubt similar voices of disapproval;
"It'll never work", "The passing game doesn't suit English football", "Just hit it long to the centre Forward", "Play so and so in such and such a position".

Well he shut them up good and proper, didn't he?

SHankly wasn't always a god, you know. There must have been plenty of fans with more dissent for him than Rafa now.

Open your minds and accept that Rafa is a visionary, and unless you show some f*cking trust, we'll lose the most gifted manager of the last 20 years.

All that is stopping the fans from realising we are about to see a new period of dominance from LFC is narrow-minded pig-headedness.

Every single time Rafa has been doubted, he's made his detractors look like fools. "Zonal marking won't work in the Premiership." - So why did it reap a record amount of clean sheets, then, you thick c*nt?

"He doesn't have what it takes to beat the top teams" (An accusation levelled at him by numerous "know-all" pundits) - so he won the Champion's LEague, beating all but 1 of the top teams on the way, then just for good measure, tw*tted the scum and SH*tski out of the FA cup last season. (And before anyone starts - every champion has luck on their side.)

"He can't get to grips with the Premiership" - so he racks up a record points haul in his second season.

This current blip is exactly the same - you watch - you'll all look like pr*cks when he wins the Premiership, and there are thousands of posts with "rotation doesn't work" as their main point.

You know what? I f*cking hate International football, but the British fixation with tradition is killing any chance we have of winning a tournament. "Must be 4-4-2" "Play the same team every game", "Must have 2 strikers up front", "Must have this, must have that", etc...

THAT is why England never win a f*cking competition - because "rotation (and everything else Mr f*cking Dimpleby didn't use when coaching the Nameless Comprehensive School's U14's team in 1965) doesn't work in the Premiership".

Yeah right.

The only reason it doesn't work is because no one is willing to give it the time it requires.
If you all know so much - take your UEFA coaching badges and start managing - I'm sure someone with all that knowledge will soon land a top job.

Bottom line?: Stop moaning about rotation folks - it's here to stay.

Great post, there is not a single thing is this post that I disagree with.

Rafael Benitez is the best manager in the World bar none, IMHO.

Including this ^

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:17 am

Bamaga man wrote:The Sheffield game you keep bringing in up Mick is not only well and truly in the past, but its the only point we have gained on our travels this season. For what its worth I thought it was a good point, and the team selection that day hasn't had that much of a significant effect on our poor run of form. What has IMO is the point your picking up on and thats the rotational side of things since.

It's certainly well in the past mate and though I seemingly can't let it go, the only reason I referred to it here was that Lando was very vociferous in his assertion that people were over-reacting when they said it was a poor result and performance which could impact upon our season. I think those of us who thought that have been largely vindicated although I do take your point that it wa sthe only away game that we have picked up anything in so far. I have gone into before the feeling that it was a lost opportunity to build momentum and therefore has affected our season to date, although I would agree with you that the rotation since has certainly contributed.

All in all my post was a doff of the hat to Lando really. It's easy when the team isn't playing well to jump on the anti-rotation bandwagon as thats what everybody else is picking up on. What's not so easy though in the face of an increasing number of non-believers is to stick to your guns. Typically, Lando doesn't just stick to his guns he straps a bazooka ontop of the one he is using and comes out all guns blazing. He's a top man and though I disagree with him on this, his actions towards other members who have been down on their luck have ensured the upmost respect for him in my eyes. His all action defence of his point of view while under fire is typical of him.

by **alessandromagno** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:15 pm

Well, Rafa is the best manager in the world thing, is just an opinion. These things change, based on current results. He is undoubtedly a very good manager, but per haps he's wrong in thinking rotation will work in the PL. It workwed in Spain, but that is a far less demanding league. In the PL sometimes 11 players who knit together well can grind out a result against better and more skillful opposition. On the other hand, the rotation system can make players lose their self belief and feel literally "like a pawn in the game". If Rafa wins the PL using the rotation system in the next 2 to 3 years, then I'll admit IO was wrong. However, our start this season shows just how far away we really are. I'm not sure about our best team even, because Rafa has bought lots of journeymen players like Zenden and Pennant who just muddy the water.Perhaps our best team would still have Gerard on the right and Kewell on the left.

I agree with Ciggy about Hamann. It was foolish to let him go. He is a far better player than Sissoko. Did Rafa just want to get rid of all Ged's big name buys? Bottom line is that if the PL is not delivered within 5-6 years of when Rafa arrived, then that's failure. It will also be difficult to defend Rafa as "the best manager" if in the same time Chelsea win 3 or 4 championships and the CL too.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:22 pm

alessandromagno wrote:Well, Rafa is the best manager in the world thing, is just an opinion. These things change, based on current results. He is undoubtedly a very good manager, but per haps he's wrong in thinking rotation will work in the PL. It workwed in Spain, but that is a far less demanding league. In the PL sometimes 11 players who knit together well can grind out a result against better and more skillful opposition. On the other hand, the rotation system can make players lose their self belief and feel literally "like a pawn in the game". If Rafa wins the PL using the rotation system in the next 2 to 3 years, then I'll admit IO was wrong. However, our start this season shows just how far away we really are. I'm not sure about our best team even, because Rafa has bought lots of journeymen players like Zenden and Pennant who just muddy the water.Perhaps our best team would still have Gerard on the right and Kewell on the left.

I agree with Ciggy about Hamann. It was foolish to let him go. He is a far better player than Sissoko. Did Rafa just want to get rid of all Ged's big name buys? Bottom line is that if the PL is not delivered within 5-6 years of when Rafa arrived, then that's failure. It will also be difficult to defend Rafa as "the best manager" if in the same time Chelsea win 3 or 4 championships and the CL too.

Speaking of muddying the waters, why do people keep insisting that Rafa discarded Hamann when it was patently his choice to leave? Here's the relevant segment from Didi's interview with the Independent that Red37 posted in another thread a few days back:

"I could have stayed at Liverpool but one day the manager called me into his office and said I might not have as many opportunities this season because Stevie would play more in the middle instead of on the right like the year before," he recalls, although Gerrard's move inside at Liverpool is yet to materialise. "In my final year at Liverpool I played 30 games, but for my liking that still wasn't enough. I missed out on some important games and after all the good years I'd had there it wasn't an option to sit out my last year and just play 10 or 15 times. I'd had a few offers and, as much as I loved playing for Liverpool, and as hard as it was to leave, I wanted a new challenge.
_

To my mind, Rafa did the honourable thing and levelled with Didi about his plans for the season and gave Hamann the option. Didi opted to leave. Yes, we'e missing him but let's not revise how we came to part company with Hamann.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:36 pm

To my mind both Lando and Big Mick have it right, as contradictory as that sounds. Let's look at the situation with a bit of nuance...

As Lando rightly says, slating Rafa for "over-rotating" based on abstract stats like selecting a different side for the past 93 or 102 games (the number keeps changing!) is unfair. You need to look at each of his changes in context to assess whether they were voluntary or forced, reasonable or hare-brained, and effective or not. Rafa's made squad changes virtually every game during his tenure here and he's achieved a great deal in a short time. Isn't it a wee bit churlish to criticize a core philosophy of a manager who has started to bring us the success we've craved so long? I think it is, and this is where I agree whole-heartedly with Lando that Rafa has earned the right to pursue his methods. "Over rotation" is an easy answer for a complex set of problems that have led to some indifferent form this year but it's not the issue at all.

No, as Big Mick points out, it's not an issue of gross squad rotation so much as an issue of unnecessary tinkering (as much as I hate that term since the press have jumped on it to deride Rafa). Rotating will always happen because injuries, suspensions, loss of form and tactical challenges will always occur. The question is how do you do it? A reasonable approach is to establish the core team that will play most games and rotate in 1 or 2 positions at most--preferably in the attacking positions up top or out wide. Rafa, however, has opted for wholesale changes on several occasions this season (most notably for European games) and there are legitimate concerns that this has hurt the fluidity of the side. Moreover, Rafa has over-tinkered, IMO, with the LM position. As much as I can understand his tactical thinking by playing Gerrard there, it's a move that has more downside than upside in terms of the player's confidence and the side's fluidity. This is the 'tinkering' that needs to stop.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Rafa can and should go on rotating 1-2 players per game to keep things fresh but needs to do it sensibly and in a way that doesn't sacrifice the form and confidence of our best players.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:49 pm

The main problem I have with the rotation system is that nobody is playing for their place. Every player except one or two knows they are going to be "rotated" i.e., dropped, whether they have a good game or not. Under these conditions, where's the incentive to "hold onto your place?".

by **Rimetto_** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:02 pm

I never thought we would win the EPL this year due to the amount of new signings made. If you take a look at the team (which 11 rafa decides to put out:D ) there will normally be 3 / 4 players that are in their first reason or just breaking into the team (Agger).

I think this is the season he's rotating the squad so much so the new players get game time early on in the season and hopefully this will then mean that around xmas time all the new players will be used to the EPL and he can pick the best 11 but also have a bench of players that are all settled into the EPL.

This squad is now completely Rafa's so we are finally having a season (months hopefully) of transition last season we still had players here that rafa used but didn't really fit into rafas idea's for the team.

I like alot of you think the most important thing this year is CL qualification and anything else is a bonus

by **alessandromagno** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:13 pm

My point was that I couldn't understand why Rafa thought Didi would only be able to get a few games. He is much better than Sissoko (who is nopt bad and improving). Rafa should have ENCOURAGED Hamann to stay.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:48 pm

bigmick wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:The Sheffield game you keep bringing in up Mick is not only well and truly in the past, but its the only point we have gained on our travels this season. For what its worth I thought it was a good point, and the team selection that day hasn't had that much of a significant effect on our poor run of form. What has IMO is the point your picking up on and thats the rotational side of things since.

It's certainly well in the past mate and though I seemingly can't let it go, the only reason I referred to it here was that Lando was very vociferous in his assertion that people were over-reacting when they said it was a poor result and performance which could impact upon our season. I think those of us who thought that have been largely vindicated although I do take your point that it wa sthe only away game that we have picked up anything in so far. I have gone into before the feeling that it was a lost opportunity to build momentum and therefore has affected our season to date, although I would agree with you that the rotation since has certainly contributed.

All in all my post was a doff of the hat to Lando really. It's easy when the team isn't playing well to jump on the anti-rotation bandwagon as thats what everybody else is picking up on. What's not so easy though in the face of an increasing number of non-believers is to stick to your guns. Typically, Lando doesn't just stick to his guns he straps a bazooka ontop of the one he is using and comes out all guns blazing. He's a top man and though I disagree with him on this, his actions towards other members who have been down on their luck have ensured the upmost respect for him in my eyes. His all action defence of his point of view while under fire is typical of him.

You're a credit to yourself and the forum, mate. :nod

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