Liverpool FC Forum

by **shanks72** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:14 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
shanks72 wrote:Obviously, if the Israelis are still fighting, then Hezbollah has a right to defend itself.

What I meant was that it sounds like Hezbollah don't want to give peace a chance. What if the Israelis are not fighting, but trying to pull back and find themselves still on Lebanese soil?
After all the ceasefire will not be implemeted until the early hours of Monday and right up until then they are officially still at war.

Israel are continuing to make ground in Lebanon right now and said they wont stop until Monday when the resolution is expected to come into affect, if Israel are withdrawing from Lebanon then why in the hell would Hezbollah attack them, the whole existence of Hezbollah is for the purpose of getting Israel out of Lebanon! If Israel retreats out of Lebanon then this will end, all be it after an awful lot of suffering to Lebanon and to a lesser extent Israel.

I appreciate that it must be very hard for Metalhead and everyone out there (Lebanese and Israeli alike) and all I have here are the images on tv. So I would like to say that I do sympathise with everone concerned.

With regard to Hezbollah attacking Israeli soldiers, Cool Hand, I was merely reiterating what I had heard on the news. That if they were found then Hezbollah would fight them.
I was speculating that they could infact be retreating at the time.

Controversial as this may sound, I do think we should remember how this war started.

If Hezbollah want lasting peace perhaps they should reconsider their policy of firing rockets into Israel, which was happening if you all remember, before this war started.

And we are never going to agree, (Cool Hand and Metalhead), as we have different views on who started this in the first place.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:20 pm

shanks72 wrote:Controversial as this may sound, I do think we should remember how this war started.

If Hezbollah want lasting peace perhaps they should reconsider their policy of firing rockets into Israel, which was happening if you all remember, before this war started.

How did this start?

2 uniformed soldiers were captured in a disputed territory, what is still effectively a war zone, an area that Lebanon claims is there’s, the UN state is Syria’s, so what the hell has it got to with Israel? If they genuinely desired peace they would retreat out of these areas and build strong defences on its borders, but it continues to violate international law and create tension.

2 Soldiers were captured by an opposition army, 2 uniformed soldiers, in a war zone and disputed territory. Remember, Israel were the first to put civilians at risk by launching attacks into Lebanon, Hezbollah rockets attacks were only a response to this, so you tell me who started this?

And I don’t know where you got the notion that Hezbollah were firing rockets into Israel before this? The only fighting that was going on was in the disputed areas.

by **metalhead** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:23 pm

First of all, Hizballah didn't fire any rockets to israel, its Israel who started the agression, but agreed that Hizballah has to be blamed on capturing the 2 soldiers, but that doesn't mean that Israel should go and destroy the country! capturing 2 soldiers happened for a reason, this reason is to have an exchange with the lebanese prisoners who are trapped in israel since the 1982 israel agression. Second, Israel beforehand violated Lebanese airspace and continued to do so.

by **coddy** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:25 pm

metalhead wrote:First of all, Hizballah didn't fire any rockets to israel, its Israel who started the agression, but agreed that Hizballah has to be blamed on capturing the 2 soldiers, but that doesn't mean that Israel should go and destroy the country! capturing 2 soldiers happened for a reason, this reason is to have an exchange with the lebanese prisoners who are trapped in israel since the 1982 israel agression. Second, Israel beforehand violated Lebanese airspace and continued to do so.

I believe it now has nothing to do with these 2 soldiers, Israel are now doing something they've wanted to do for a long time.

by **metalhead** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:29 pm

coddy wrote:
metalhead wrote:First of all, Hizballah didn't fire any rockets to israel, its Israel who started the agression, but agreed that Hizballah has to be blamed on capturing the 2 soldiers, but that doesn't mean that Israel should go and destroy the country! capturing 2 soldiers happened for a reason, this reason is to have an exchange with the lebanese prisoners who are trapped in israel since the 1982 israel agression. Second, Israel beforehand violated Lebanese airspace and continued to do so.

I believe it now has nothing to do with these 2 soldiers, Israel are now doing something they've wanted to do for a long time.

are you a lebanese in disguese?

This is what all of us lebanese thinks!

by **supersub** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:32 pm

In response to the post by shanks72.....your views on the situation and it's beginnings,gained from tv news coverage,seem a little befuddled. You would be more enlightened by reading the posts of metalhead and cool hand luke,who in my learned opinion,have shown to have the best insight into the current troubles in Lebanon.

by **coddy** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:38 pm

metalhead wrote:
coddy wrote:
metalhead wrote:First of all, Hizballah didn't fire any rockets to israel, its Israel who started the agression, but agreed that Hizballah has to be blamed on capturing the 2 soldiers, but that doesn't mean that Israel should go and destroy the country! capturing 2 soldiers happened for a reason, this reason is to have an exchange with the lebanese prisoners who are trapped in israel since the 1982 israel agression. Second, Israel beforehand violated Lebanese airspace and continued to do so.

I believe it now has nothing to do with these 2 soldiers, Israel are now doing something they've wanted to do for a long time.

are you a lebanese in disguese?

This is what all of us lebanese thinks!

no not lebanese but British Forces

and trust me i dont want to be doind peacekeeping against the israeli's, they have the best special forces in the world! (behind the UK of course)

by **metalhead** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:39 pm

coddy wrote:
metalhead wrote:
coddy wrote:
metalhead wrote:First of all, Hizballah didn't fire any rockets to israel, its Israel who started the agression, but agreed that Hizballah has to be blamed on capturing the 2 soldiers, but that doesn't mean that Israel should go and destroy the country! capturing 2 soldiers happened for a reason, this reason is to have an exchange with the lebanese prisoners who are trapped in israel since the 1982 israel agression. Second, Israel beforehand violated Lebanese airspace and continued to do so.

I believe it now has nothing to do with these 2 soldiers, Israel are now doing something they've wanted to do for a long time.

are you a lebanese in disguese?

This is what all of us lebanese thinks!

no not lebanese but British Forces

and trust me i dont want to be doind peacekeeping against the israeli's, they have the best special forces in the world! (behind the UK of course)

blah, hizballah showed them what they are made of :laugh:

by **coddy** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:40 pm

yeah but there is many more of them that the real world doesnt hear about....... lol

by **shanks72** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:01 am

supersub wrote:In response to the post by shanks72.....your views on the situation and it's beginnings,gained from tv news coverage,seem a little befuddled. You would be more enlightened by reading the posts of metalhead and cool hand luke,who in my learned opinion,have shown to have the best insight into the current troubles in Lebanon.

Befuddled?.......lol....

As I understand it and maybe I am wrong:

Hezbollah took captive 2 Israeli soldiers and refused to give them back, whilst still continuing their firing of rockets into Israel, which as I understand it was unprovoked.
This is the reason Israel attacked in the first place. However, it does seem that they intend to take as much land as they can while they are about it.

I agree, Supersub, that Cool Hand and Metalhead do have a good insight into what is happening, but they do appear somewhat biased to me.
Each of us has our own opinion and I am entitled to mine, surely.
It will be realised now that I sympathise with Israel and for that I will not apologise.
Although from the suffering being experienced by both sides I was trying to say that I sympathise with EVERYONE INVOLVED no matter where they came from.

by **IstanBuL-FenerBaHce** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:40 am

shanks72 wrote:As I understand it and maybe I am wrong:

Hezbollah took captive 2 Israeli soldiers and refused to give them back, whilst still continuing their firing of rockets into Israel, which as I understand it was unprovoked.

Israel and USA are c.unts shanks mate. They see the world as a game-table and do whatever they want without any permission with any f.ucking pretext.

BTW nobody asks Israel WTF were your soldiers doing there on a foreign land. It is agency, it is prohibited!. Israel havent any right to do that.

Two uniformed soldiers have been captured on SYRIA land and Israel are trying to destroy a whole country, LEBANON!..Hundreds of children are dead now. Hospitals, bridges, roads, energy plants, schools are ruined now..

Each of us has our own opinion and I am entitled to mine, surely.
It will be realised now that I sympathise with Israel and for that I will not apologise.

Oh of course you can say Israel is right, thats your opinion mate. There isnt anything to apologise..

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:53 am

shanks72 wrote:
supersub wrote:In response to the post by shanks72.....your views on the situation and it's beginnings,gained from tv news coverage,seem a little befuddled. You would be more enlightened by reading the posts of metalhead and cool hand luke,who in my learned opinion,have shown to have the best insight into the current troubles in Lebanon.

Befuddled?.......lol....

As I understand it and maybe I am wrong:

Hezbollah took captive 2 Israeli soldiers and refused to give them back, whilst still continuing their firing of rockets into Israel, which as I understand it was unprovoked.
This is the reason Israel attacked in the first place. However, it does seem that they intend to take as much land as they can while they are about it.

I agree, Supersub, that Cool Hand and Metalhead do have a good insight into what is happening, but they do appear somewhat biased to me.
Each of us has our own opinion and I am entitled to mine, surely.
It will be realised now that I sympathise with Israel and for that I will not apologise.
Although from the suffering being experienced by both sides I was trying to say that I sympathise with EVERYONE INVOLVED no matter where they came from.

Shanks I dont know the ins and outs of this, but to be fair to Israel, ALL the surrounding countries have NEVER wanted Israel there because basicly its not an Arab state. So because they are of different religon and beliefs they basicly do not have the right to be there. :glare:

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:17 am

I found this earlier and thought it was interesting to see the history of ' Palestine'.

History of "Palestine" 1273 BCE to 1948
The only time "Palestine" was ruled by "Palestinians" or any people from the Arabian Peninsula was briefly around 635 A.D.
"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 A.D. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years...," the Muslim chairman of the Syrian Delegation attested in his remarks to the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919.
"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977

A.D. Ruler *
1273 BCE Israel Conquest of Canaan ** under Joshua,
423 BCE Iranian Babylon invades and destroys First Temple [Persian empire was based in modern day Iran]
371 BCE Israel
Iranian King Cyrus issued decree to restore Jewish Nation
312 BCE Israel
Greek Battle of Gaza; Seleucus controls Syria and Babylonia [Seleucid empire was based in Macedonia, northern Greece]
285-246 BCE Israel
Egyptian Rule of Ptolemy II
199 BCE Israel
Greek Seleucid monarchy occupies Judea **
175 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Antiochus Epiphanes came to throne in Syria
168 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Pagan idol set up in Temple
165 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Macabean Revolt, beginning of Hasmonean dynasty
142 BCE Israel Shimon rules and gains Judean indepence
135-104 BCE Israel Rule of Yochanan Hyrkanus
104-103 BCE Israel Rule of Yehudah Aristobulus
103-76 BCE Israel Rule of Alexander Yannai
76-66 BCE Israel Rule of Salome Alexandra
63 BCE Israel
Roman Civil War: Hyrkanus vs. Aristobulus. Pompey intervenes, Conquest of Jerusalem by Pompey, Judea becomes Roman Vassal.
47 BCE Israel
Roman Caesar appoints Antipater ruler of Judea
70 Roman The Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136 Roman Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351 Roman Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 Turkish Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 Turkish Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 Iran Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 Turkish "Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637 Syrian Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 Syrian Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 Syrian Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661 Syrian Murder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750 Iraq Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 Egyptian Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor of Egypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 Iraq The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 Carmathians Inroads of the Carmathians.
934 Egyptian The Egyptian lkhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 Egyptian The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 Carmathians War with the Carmathians.
970-976 Turkish Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 Turkish Seljuq Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 Crusaders The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 Crusaders Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 Mongolian The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem's population is slaughtered, the city sacked.
1260 Egyptian Mameluk Sultans of Egypt defeat Mongols at Ain Jalut, in Palestine; their reign begins.
1260 Egyptian Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 Egyptian End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongolian Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 Turkish The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 French Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 Egyptian Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt's Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 Turkish Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 Turkish English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 Turkish First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 Turkish Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 British Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 British Balfour Declaration granting "Jewish Homeland" internationally approved.
1920 British British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration
1922 British Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 British Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 British Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab "Palestinian" state, Transiordan.
1925 British Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1927 British High Commissioners receive Commission for Transjordan.
1929 British Arab revolt.
1936-1939 British Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 British Establishment of Arab state of Transiordan.
1948 Israel End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 Israel Eastern Palestine-Transjordan-.occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes "Jordan," constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.

* For familiarity we cite the closest modern country which contained the seat of power at the time.

** Canaan, Judea and "Palestine" refers to both the East and West banks of the Jordan river, what is Israel and Jordan today..

Source: Joan Peter's "From Time Immemorial" Harper & Row Publishers
(with over 150 pages of well sourced footnotes) and
"History of the Jewish People - The Second Temple Era" by Mesorah Publications

Click for Related Articles

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:43 am

Sorry the dates are bottom to top and that this is only one side of the conflict, but it does support Shanks72 view that Hizballah not only captured 2 soldiers but had been firing rockets into Israel well BEFORE the 2 soldiers were captured.

24 Jul 2006 - Hizballah fired more than 70 Katyusha rockets into Israel, several of which landed in Nahariya, Safed, and Kiryat Shmona. Medics treated at least 49 people who were lightly to moderately wounded. More than 2200 rockets have been fired at Israeli cities since July 12, killing 17 Israelis, all of them civilians. 20 Israeli soldiers were killed in other incidents.

23 Jul 2006 - Shimon Glickblich, 60, of Haifa was killed Sunday morning (11:00) while driving his car in Haifa. Habib Isa Awad, 48, of Iblin, was killed while working in the carpentry shop in Kiryat Ata. Another 12 were wounded in the morning barrage in Haifa, and more later in the day as over 90 rockets were fired at Haifa, Akko, Kiryat Shmona, and elsewhere in northern Israel. .

20 Jul 2006 - Five IDF soldiers were killed and five wounded in continuing exchanges of fire in the Lebanese village of Maroun al-Ras, near Avivim, where two soldiers were killed on Wednesday. The body of the fifth soldier, St.-Sgt. Yonatan (Sergei) Vlasyuk, 21, of Kibbutz Lahav was retrieved on July 22. At 16, Yonatan immigrated alone to Israel through the Jewish Agency's "Na'aleh" program. He was adopted by Dalia Gal, a member of Kibbutz Lahav in the Negev. An IDF officer was killed and three soldiers were wounded as two Apache (Cobra) combat helicopters on their way to Lebanon to assist IDF forces operating against Hizballah terrorists near Avivim collided and then crashed south of Kiryat Shmona.

19 Jul 2006 - St.-Sgt. Yonatan Hadasi, 21, of Kibbutz Merhavia and St.-Sgt. Yotam Gilboa, 21, of Kibbutz Maoz Haim were killed and nine soldiers were wounded in exchanges of fire between IDF and Hizballah in south Lebanon, near Moshav Avivim. The Israeli force had crossed the border to destroy the Hizballah rocket-launching position at the former IDF outpost of Shaked. Rabia Abed Taluzi (3) and his brother Mahmoud (7) who were playing soccer outside their house were killed and dozens were wounded in two Katyusha rocket attacks on the Israeli Arab city of Nazareth.

18 Jul 2006 - Andrei Zelinksy, 36, was killed Tuesday evening in Nahariya outside a bomb shelter. Though he managed to save his family by rushing them into the shelter, he returned home to get a blanket for his daughter and was killed. Some 130 rockets were fired at the north on Tuesday, 100 of them within one hour and a half - also landing in the Haifa area, Karmiel, Tiberias, Safed, Maalot and Rosh Pina. About 60 people injured were evacuated to hospitals in Safed and Nahariya.

17 Jul 2006 - Over 50 rockets were fired towards the eastern and upper Galilee on Monday night. A Katyusha rocket hit the external wall of the Rebecca Sieff Hospital in Safed, causing damage to infrastructure; five patients, two doctors and two other hospital employees were injured. Earlier, 11 people were wounded in Haifa when a 3-story apartment building was hit by missile. The Israel Air Force destroyed at least ten long-range Iranian-made missiles capable of hitting Tel Aviv, by targeting a Hizballah truck carrying the missiles before they could be launched. To date, missiles have been fired up to 40 kilometers into Israel.

16 Jul 2006 - Eight killed, 50 wounded in Hizballah rocket attack on Haifa - Rockets began falling on the Haifa area shortly after 9:00 a.m. Eight employees of Israel Railways at the Haifa train depot were killed in a direct hit by a Fajar missile made in Syria. A total of over 50 people were wounded in Haifa and the Haifa Bay area.

15 Jul 2006 - Katyusha rockets landed for the first time in Tiberias, located 35 kilometers from the Lebanese border on the Sea of Galilee, as well as in nearby communities.

14 Jul 2006 - Shortly after 8:30 p.m. Friday night an Israeli navy ship was severely damaged by an Iran-manufactured missile fired by Hizballah. Four IDF soldiers were killed: Staff Sgt. Tal Amgar, 21, of Ashdod; Yaniv Hershkovitz, 21, of Haifa; Shai Atias, 19, of Rishon Lezion; and Dov Steinshuss, 37, of Karmiel. Omer Pesachov, 7, of Nahariya, and his grandmother Yehudit Itzkovitch, 58, of Moshav Meron were killed by a Katyusha rocket in Meron early Friday evening. Roni, Omer's older sister, was badly wounded, and the grandfather, Naftali, was lightly hurt. The family had fled the Katyushas in Nahariya to spend a quiet weekend with their grandparents.

13 Jul 2006 - Monica Seidman (Lehrer), 40, of Nahariya was killed in her home by a Katyusha rocket Thursday morning. In the evening, Nitzan Roseban, 33, was killed in Safed by a direct rocket hit. On Thursday evening Katyushas landed in Haifa.

12 Jul 2006 - Hizballah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hizballah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.

27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

link

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:14 am

Just to cheer everyone up August 22nd 2006 is the date when the Iranian/Muslim Armageddon is supposed to happen. Maybe Metalhead can clear this up?

Liverpool FC Forum

New war breaking out as we speak?

Who is online