New war breaking out as we speak?

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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:06 pm

Judge wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:
Sabre wrote:Yeh, in most conflicts both sides are almost as bad.

But when IRA assasinated, the UK combatted the terrorists, they didn't destroy Dublin airport and bombed Irish cities to combat it. Spain didn't bomb the Basque cities neither.

The Hezbollah guys are terrorists, but Lebanon population  are not. And Israel is attacking airports (from where no attacks ever came), blocking sea ports, destroying infrastructures and roads, and killing children. That's an act of war, not combating terrorists.

The IRA killed many innocent protestants and innocent members of the public in Britain itself too and the protestants had their own "terrorists" who killed many innocent catholics. The British government are widely believed to have helped the protestant terrorists kill innocent catholics and the British army shot dead unarmed catholics on the street (bloody sunday).

The Irish government were not that great either and engaged in gun running in the late 1960s.

This isn't the site to go into it all but all sides in the war in Northern Ireland did horrible things to innocent people. I cannot think of a single war when it was good versus evil - that is for the cartoons & movies.

world war 2?

the germans must be considered the baddies there mate

aye dawson, and it was the JEWISH population who suffered there.

plenty of innocents murdered there

the list goes on

=========================================


as far as bombing airports and transportation function, that is vital in stopping hezbollah idiots from getting arms in and out readily.

Mind you, we all have an opinion on this, but at the end of the day, we will never agree to what is right/wrong.

war is wrong in any form, but because we are humans, we have no other way of resolving issues, its in our nature to destroy.

Astute and succint Judge.

Can I secede from the human family then?

Not too proud of me follow homo sapiens right now I'm afraid.

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Postby Ciggy » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:17 pm

Ive got Al-Jazeera news on and its far far worst than the 5 minutes you see on Sky or BBC news etc.
They have bombed everywhere the Israeli's flattened hundreds of blocks of flats, schools, loads of shops in the town centre, a big bridge has got a hole in it and all cars have fell through it all them people are dead.
And them poor kids and babies for god sake :angry:
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Postby Judge » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:32 pm

in the haifa bombings i think 2 children were killed by hezbollah rockets


war always affects the innocent :(
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Postby Sabre » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:35 pm

The IRA killed many innocent protestants and innocent members of the public in Britain itself too and the protestants had their own "terrorists" who killed many innocent catholics. The British government are widely believed to have helped the protestant terrorists kill innocent catholics and the British army shot dead unarmed catholics on the street (bloody sunday).

The Irish government were not that great either and engaged in gun running in the late 1960s.

This isn't the site to go into it all but all sides in the war in Northern Ireland did horrible things to innocent people. I cannot think of a single war when it was good versus evil - that is for the cartoons & movies.


Yeh, lots of underground dirty war was going on here too, many innocents killed (and not that I aprove the killings of soldiers neither), I know my analysis was way too simple.

But again, this people goes further, as they have to give explanations to nobody (as U.S. will ban whatever attempt to bother them in the U.N) if they have to kill one terrorist they demolish the whole block where he lived at or bomb the whole country in this case.
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Postby dawson99 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:37 pm

Well if a terrorist was to kill thousands, and you could kill hundreds by killing the terrorist, statistically its worth it. i know how heartless that sounds and im not saying i agree with it, but its the way the world works sometimes
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Postby Judge » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:37 pm

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Postby ConnO'var » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:46 pm

dawson99 wrote:Well if a terrorist was to kill thousands, and you could kill hundreds by killing the terrorist, statistically its worth it. i know how heartless that sounds and im not saying i agree with it, but its the way the world works sometimes

Sad but true I suppose....

Mathematics has a way of doing that. Cold hard numbers and the removal of emotion from the equation.

Just make sure you don't look at some of the horrendous pictures floating round out there unless you have a strong stomach....
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Postby 48-1119859832 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:47 pm

dawson99 wrote:war is not always wrong tho, maybe the battles can be wrong, but sometimes a means to an end is justified

If religion didn't exist and humans weren't power hungry, greed driven inhumane creatures war wouldn't be needed to resolve "issues" with other countries. If Humans were more rational and thought provoking creatures we would be able to sit around a table and resolve issues that way. War is simple way of getting what you want, it's wrong.
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Postby woof woof ! » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:06 pm

Judge wrote:aye dawson, and it was the JEWISH population who suffered there.



=========================================

Lets not forget the 20 million russians . Always suprises me that whenever ww2 is mentioned the suffering of the Jews is readily mentioned whilst the russians who lost 3 times as many are hardly mentioned . They russians may not have been gassed but millions were worked literally to death and millions of others were casually exterminated where they stood by the Waffen SS .
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Postby Bman » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:09 pm

Ciggy wrote:FFS anyone seen the news, The Israel's have bombed 30 targets in Beirut including the airport.
This is going to get worse and worse whats going on?
I know Hisbolah have taken captive two Israely soliders but this isnt the answer.
The terrorism is just going to get worse. :no

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Postby woof woof ! » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:15 pm

0asis wrote:War is simple way of getting what you want, it's wrong.

"War is an extension of State politics by other means"
Von Clausewitz 1780 - 1831 .
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Postby mitch22 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:24 pm

Itll be a  lot worse if Israel turn on syrian targets . Iran will kick off big time . And you no what the Americans feel about I ran  :veryangry
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Postby Big Niall » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:40 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Big Niall wrote:
Sabre wrote:Yeh, in most conflicts both sides are almost as bad.

But when IRA assasinated, the UK combatted the terrorists, they didn't destroy Dublin airport and bombed Irish cities to combat it. Spain didn't bomb the Basque cities neither.

The Hezbollah guys are terrorists, but Lebanon population  are not. And Israel is attacking airports (from where no attacks ever came), blocking sea ports, destroying infrastructures and roads, and killing children. That's an act of war, not combating terrorists.

The IRA killed many innocent protestants and innocent members of the public in Britain itself too and the protestants had their own "terrorists" who killed many innocent catholics. The British government are widely believed to have helped the protestant terrorists kill innocent catholics and the British army shot dead unarmed catholics on the street (bloody sunday).

The Irish government were not that great either and engaged in gun running in the late 1960s.

This isn't the site to go into it all but all sides in the war in Northern Ireland did horrible things to innocent people. I cannot think of a single war when it was good versus evil - that is for the cartoons & movies.

world war 2?

the germans must be considered the baddies there mate

The army that did the most to defeat "evil" Nazi Germany was the USSR. Stalin was just as evil as Hitler - he killed around 12 million of his own people and enforced famine on other areas. Also - his brand of communism took away all the freedoms of the individual.

Sorry dude, but you are wrong about WW2. History books don't dwell on Stalins atrocities because the democracies allied with him. Sadly the victor usually writes history.

The main fighting forces (Germany & USSR)of both sides represented ideology that I'm not that mad about (obviously I'm not saying that all the other armies on both sides were also evil)
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Postby woof woof ! » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:56 pm

Big Niall wrote:Sorry dude, but you are wrong about WW2. History books don't dwell on Stalins atrocities because the democracies allied with him. Sadly the victor usually writes history.

Bollox ! Don't know what books you've been reading but Stalin is well documented as one of historys most evil dictators and his crimes and atrocities against his own people have in fact racked up more newsprint than any other of his ilk .

For the record , Britain and later the US, allied with Stalin as it was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" . At the end of WW2 leading political and military figures (particularly churchill and the american general Patton) saw Communist Russian State as the next enemy and considered (albeit briefly) military action against them.
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Postby anfieldadorer » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:11 pm

a bit of quote on stalin and WW2

After the failure of Soviet and Franco-British talks on a mutual defense pact in Moscow, Stalin began to negotiate a non-aggression pact with Hitler's Germany. In his speech on August 19, 1939, Stalin prepared his comrades for the great turn in Soviet policy, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany. According to a controversial Russian author living in the UK, Viktor Suvorov, Stalin expressed in the speech an expectation that the war would be the best opportunity to weaken both the Western nations and Nazi Germany, and make Germany suitable for "Sovietization". Whether this speech was ever delivered to the public and what its content was is still debated. (see Stalin's speech on August 19, 1939 and Igor Bunich).

Officially a non-aggression treaty only, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had a "secret" annex according to which Central Europe was divided into the two powers' respective spheres of influence. The USSR was promised an eastern part of Poland, primarily populated with Ukrainians and Belorussians in case of its dissolution, as long as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland were recognized as parts of the Soviet sphere of influence. Another clause of the treaty was that Bessarabia, then part of Romania, was to be joined to the Moldovan ASSR, and become the Moldovan SSR under control of Moscow.

On September 1, 1939, the German invasion of Poland started World War II. Hence, Stalin decided to intervene, and on September 17 the Red Army entered eastern Poland and the Baltic states and annexed these territories.

In November 1939, Stalin sent troops over the Finnish border provoking war. The Winter War between the Soviet Union and Finland proved to be more difficult than Stalin and the Red Army were prepared for, and the Soviets sustained high casualties. The Soviets prevailed in March, 1940, but the problems of the Soviet army had been revealed to the rest of the world, including Germany.

On March 5, 1940, the Soviet leadership approved an order of execution for more than 25,700 Polish "nationalist, educators and counterrevolutionary" activists in the parts of the Ukraine and Belarus republics that had been annexed from Poland. This event has become known as the Katyn Massacre.[15]

In June 1941, Hitler broke the pact and invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa. Although expecting war with Germany, Stalin may not have expected an invasion to come so soon — and the Soviet Union was relatively unprepared for this invasion. An alternative theory suggested by Viktor Suvorov claims that Stalin had made aggressive preparations from the late 1930s on and was about to invade Germany in summer 1941. Thus, he believes Hitler only managed to forestall Stalin and the German invasion was in essence a pre-emptive strike. This theory was supported by Mikhail Meltyukhov (see Stalin's Missed Chance) and Edvard Radzinsky (see Stalin: The First In-Depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives). Most Western historians reject this thesis, though.
Stalin's speech in the Mayakovskaya metro station in Moscow, November 6, 1941 on a meeting dedicated to an anniversary of the October revolution
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Stalin's speech in the Mayakovskaya metro station in Moscow, November 6, 1941 on a meeting dedicated to an anniversary of the October revolution

Until the last moment, Stalin had sought to avoid any obvious defensive preparation which might provoke German attack, in the hope of buying time to modernize and strengthen his military forces. Even after the attack commenced. A myth is that Stalin appeared unwilling to accept the fact and, according to some historians, was too stunned to react appropriately for a number of days. And this myth is dispelled by people who have looked into the Soviet Archives after the fall of the Soviet Union. Both Richard Overy [14] and Simon Sebag Montefiore [15] have showed that he held at least 8 major meetings the same day as the invasion. Stalin ignored much intelligence warning of a German attack.[16]

In the diary of General Fedor von Boch, it is also mentioned that the Abwehr fully expected a Soviet attack against German forces in Poland no later than 1942. Such speculations are difficult to substantiate, however, as information on the Soviet Army from 1939 to 1941 remains classified, but it is known that the Soviets had received some warnings of the German invasion through their foreign intelligence agents, such as Richard Sorge.

The Germans initially made huge advances, capturing and killing millions of Soviet troops. Hitler's experts had expected eight weeks of war, and early indications evidenced their prescience.

The Soviet Red Army put up fierce resistance during the war's early stages, but was often ineffective against the better-equipped, well-trained and experienced German forces and also due to an ineffective defense doctrine. The invaders were eventually driven back in December 1941 near Moscow. Stalin then worked with independent-minded Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov to orchestrate the decisive German defeat in the Battle of Stalingrad.
The Big Three: British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Stalin at the Yalta Conference.
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The Big Three: British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Stalin at the Yalta Conference.

Stalin met in several conferences with Churchill and/or Roosevelt in Moscow, Tehran, Yalta, and Potsdam to plan military strategy (Truman taking the place of the deceased Roosevelt).

In these conferences, his first appearances on the world stage, Stalin proved to be a formidable negotiator. Anthony Eden, the British Foreign Secretary noted:

"Marshal Stalin as a negotiator was the toughest proposition of all. Indeed, after something like thirty years' experience of international conferences of one kind and another, if I had to pick a team for going into a conference room, Stalin would be my first choice. Of course the man was ruthless and of course he knew his purpose. He never wasted a word. He never stormed, he was seldom even irritated."[16]

His shortcomings as strategist are frequently noted regarding massive Soviet loss of life and early Soviet defeats. An example of it is the summer offensive of 1942, which led to even more losses by the Red Army and recapture of initiative by the Germans. Stalin eventually recognized his lack of know-how and relied on his professional generals to conduct the war.

Yet Stalin did rapidly move Soviet industrial production east of the Volga River, far from Luftwaffe-reach, to sustain the Red Army's war machine with astonishing success. Additionally, Stalin was well aware that other European armies had utterly disintegrated when faced with Nazi military efficacy and responded effectively by subjecting his army to galvanizing terror and unrevolutionary, nationalist appeals to patriotism. He even appealed to the Russian Orthodox church and images of national Russian heroes for that matter. On November 6, 1941, Stalin addressed the whole nation of the Soviet Union for the second time (the first time was earlier that year on July 2).

According to Stalin's Order No. 227 of July 27, 1942, any commander or commissar of a regiment, battalion or army, who allowed retreat without permission from above was subject to military tribunal. The Soviet soldiers who surrendered were declared traitors; however most of those who survived the brutality of German captivity were mobilized again as they were freed. Between 5% and 10% of them were sent to gulags.
Time Magazine (1943-01-04). Time had previously named Stalin Man of the Year for the year 1939.
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Time Magazine (1943-01-04). Time had previously named Stalin Man of the Year for the year 1939.

In the war's opening stages, the retreating Red Army also sought to deny resources to the enemy through a scorched earth policy of destroying the infrastructure and food supplies of areas before the Germans could seize them. Unfortunately, this, along with abuse by German troops, caused inconceivable starvation and suffering among the civilian population that were left behind.

According to recent figures, of an estimated four millions POW's taken by the Russians, including Germans, Japanese, Hungarians, Romanians and others, some 580,000 never returned, presumably victims of privation or the Gulags. Returning Soviet soldiers who had surrendered were viewed with suspicion and some were killed.[17]

The Soviet Union bore the brunt of civilian and military losses in World War II. At least 8,668,400 Red Army personnel and 20 million civilians died. The Nazis considered Slavs to be "sub-human", and many people believe the Nazis killed Slavs as an ethnically targeted genocide. This concept of Slavic inferiority was also the reason why Hitler did not accept into his army many Soviet citizens who wanted to fight the regime until 1944, when the war was lost for Germany.

In the Soviet Union, World War II left a huge deficit of men of the wartime fighting-age generation. To this day the war is remembered very vividly in Russia, Belarus, and other parts of the former Soviet Union as the Great Patriotic War, and May 9, "Victory Day", is one of Russia's biggest national holidays.
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