Liverpool FC Forum

by **anfieldadorer** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:39 pm

Redrider wrote:The criticism is generally moronic, because it is all based around Morientes goalscoring record.
Very few of the posts take account of the true role that Morientes is playing.
The goal against City came from Morientes breaking down the City play, passing to Gerrard and the rest as they say is history!
How many have credited Morientes with a hand in that goal ?
It is a team game and all make a contribution, Kewell and Gerrard get the praise for the spectacularly obvious. How many look behind the superficial evidence and credit the real support roles that players undertake, many of which are directed by managerial and coaching orders.
Let's start giving Nando some appreciation and encouragement and then watch his name appear on the score sheet.

there are in football the what so called defenders, whom their roles are to guard your defense; midfielder, to receive and pass ball between defense and forward, and; forward to create and score goals

now where should nando be categorized into?

by **woof woof !** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:42 pm

Redrider wrote:It is also very easy to jump on the bandwagon of condemnation and join the popular herd.
Both of which are moronic attributes.

It's not THAT easy .

:laugh:

by **woof woof !** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:51 pm

Redrider wrote:Like I said, it is a lot easier to applaud the spectacular than it is to appreciate the subtleties !

? did you really say that , I only remember you calling people morons .
Talking of morons ,tell me more about your "Nando is playing the Paul Scholes role" theory .

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:56 pm

Redrider wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Redrider wrote:The goal against City came from Morientes breaking down the City play, passing to Gerrard and the rest as they say is history!

Yeah lets forget that it was Gerrards vision to put Kewell away and Kewells subsequent coolness and ability to finish it . Lets instead give Morientes the credit for managing to give get the ball and give it to someone in a red shirt . Better still why not rewind the game 20 minutes and credit the goal to Reina , if his goal kick handn't landed exactley where it did the game would have been so different .

Like I said, it is a lot easier to applaud the spectacular than it is to appreciate the subtleties !
It is also very easy to jump on the bandwagon of condemnation and join the popular herd.
Both of which are moronic attributes.
I have no fears, Morientes will come good, the lad has pedigree and his class will shine through. Maybe not with Liverpool, should this current wave negative criticism continue.
Which will surely make him wan't to leave. But I for one hope he stays just to prove all the doubters wrong.

Just been watching the goal on SSN and Morientes played no part in it.
Hyypia heads a clearance away and then Gerrard pulled the ball down in the centre circle and then slid in Kewell.
Morientes works hard but thats not enough, in a 90 minute match we get the odd glimpse of his abilty with a brilliant turn every now and then.
But his body language is that of a man who is not happy or enjoying his football.
I would love for him to come good and score goals but it doesnt look likely.
Someone else deserves a chance in the team.
My preference would be Fowler with Crouch.

by **dawson99** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:58 pm

i think it is also the fact tat mori dragged away the defenders giving kewell a lot mroe space. u dont have to be kciking the ball to change the play

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:13 pm

dawson99 wrote:i think it is also the fact tat mori dragged away the defenders giving kewell a lot mroe space. u dont have to be kciking the ball to change the play

Your right mate, it was a clever run and Kewell mentioned it in his interview after the match.
Morientes is obviously a very clever player and things like that sometimes go un-noticed, but there isn't enough end product in his game to justify his place in the team.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:16 pm

What actually happened and where this lad has embarassed himself, is when they interviewed Kewell stright after the game he pinpointed the movement of Morientes being instrumental in the goal. Kewell was mistaken of course, because all Nando had done was to go deep looking for posession. That's Ok though, in the rough and tumble of the game it's often impossible to judge what went on in a passage of play prior to you getting involved in it.
The main factors in Kewells goal were Gerrards instant control of the Hyppia header and more importantly, Danny Mills' inexplicable decision to defend narrow enough to allow kewell a free run in on goal given a relatively easy through ball into his path. Quite what Mills was doing going in as far as he did he probably can't even explain himself, but to claim it was because Morientes had chosen to track back towards the edge of his own box is erm, an interesting theory.
The theory becomes all the more interesting and ultimately embarassing when the person who ventured it decided to describe other people as morons and to accuse them of only appreciating the game on a superficial level.
Differences of opinion are fine, unnecessary rudeness is not. When that unnecessary rudeness goes hand in hand with glaring inaccuracies and blatent misinterpretation of events, it becomes a joke.

by **48-1119859832** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:17 pm

Nice to see lots of petty insults flying about, always makes a great debate (I'll let you lot figure out if it's sarcasm or not).

Whilst Morientes has improved, works hard and tries his best all the time this can't gurantee results and whilst Morientes has never been an out 'n' out goalscorer he should at least be scoring more than what he has been doing. And lets face it, it's not like he doesn't get his equal cut of chances on goal.

Whilst I think he continues to strive in his game for us and continues to improve with each passing game, he's not much use if he's not scoring and it's the same with any of our strikers. There's obviously more roles to a strikers game than just putting the ball in the net but it's one of the highest priorities.

I'm not sure why it's only Moro that's getting stick for lack of goals, it's not like Fowler, Cisse or Crouch (apart from his header against Man Utd) have provided us with em.

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:21 pm

Differences of opinion are fine, unnecessary rudeness is not. When that unnecessary rudeness goes hand in hand with glaring inaccuracies and blatent misinterpretation of events, it becomes a joke.

Spot on. It's not only unnecessary but also ruins pretty much of the footy debate into sterile discussions.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:43 pm

0asis wrote:I'm not sure why it's only Moro that's getting stick for lack of goals, it's not like Fowler, Cisse or Crouch (apart from his header against Man Utd) have provided us with em.

That's totally correct. The thing is though, while I agree with the theory that for a striker it's not all about goals, where I disagree with some is what those bits around the edges should consist of, and how many goals represents an acceptable return.
Clearly there is more to Morientes game than goals (and thank God for that) as there was to Heskey's game and indeed there is to Crouch's. Owen in contrast is judged largely on goal return alone, you wouldn't expect him to come deep and forage for posession or link up the play like Nando/Crouch does.
So what are those flowery bits, the bits the discerning punter can see that are not on a superficial level? For me they are recieving and keeping posession of the football, bringing other prople into play, providing opportunities for others with clever movement, closing down the opposition defenders when we haven't got the ball, giving us an out ball when under pressure, showing in short etc etc etc etc. I suspect nobody would have an argument up to this point, indeed those who support and believe in Morientes would probably say, "yeah well he does all of that" and he does. Some parts he does better than others. Generally the parts that involve skill, effort and application he does very well (closing down defenders, creating space for others etc) while the ones that require desire and upper body strength (maintaining posession, holding the ball up etc) he isn't anywhere near as good at.
Heskey on the other hand would be the other way around. Lots of strength and power, but not the intelligence of Nando to make space for others or to link up play with deft touches. Crouch would be somewhere in between. Not as strong on the ball as Heskey but with a better touch, and better than Nando at protecting the ball. I still don't think to this point anybody would argue.
Onto the other bits and this obviously is the crux. Goals? What is an acceptable return for a striker even given the fact that he is not an out and out goalscorer? It's hard to put a number on it really but clearly Morientes's return is nowhere near good enough, and if you were to press the point nor is Crouch's. The crucial difference for me though is that Crouch looks like he will score goals whereas Morientes doesn't. Crouch gets himself open in the box, Morientes doesn't. Crouch looks aware and alert (sort of) in the box, Morientes doesn't.
Goals aren't everything for a striker but they are a major part of his game. All strikers have bad runs no matter how good they are but the best ones look as though they will score a goal soon. In short, they provide a threat. This is crucial for a striker in my opinion and if you don't have it, you ain't gonna make it as a striker. Morientes in English football provides practically zero threat. There is the problem.
If he keeps playing, eventually he will score a goal. Eventually the ball will drop to him or it will hit him up the erse on the way in or we will carve him out a chance that he cannot miss. Then, we will be back waiting for hi to score again and the same rules apply, because he provides no threat.
Showing loyalty to the players is a great thing to do and to be applauded. To pretend that some thing is there when it isn't is just pointless.

by **woof woof !** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:13 pm

Fair comments there Mick .

Also like to add a brief response to Oasis' " it's not like Fowler, Cisse or Crouch (apart from his header against Man Utd) have provided us with em "

You can hardly give Fowler stick for christs sake the fella only been back 5 minutes , Cisse has had his fair share of stick , perhaps if he had been given the same game time as Morientes with equal lack of success the chorus of disapproval may have been louder, and as Mick has pointed out Crouch at least looks as though he might score ,he was desperately unlucky not to bag two possibly three yesterday .

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:17 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Fair comments there Mick .

Also like to add a brief response to Oasis' " it's not like Fowler, Cisse or Crouch (apart from his header against Man Utd) have provided us with em "

You can hardly give Fowler stick for christs sake the fella only been back 5 minutes , Cisse has had his fair share of stick , perhaps if he had been given the same game time as Morientes with equal lack of success the chorus of disapproval may have been louder, and as Mick has pointed out Crouch at least looks as though he might score ,he was desperately unlucky not to bag two possibly three yesterday .

In the case of Cisse Woof, I am by no means his biggest fan. It has to be said however that even though his blast over the bar against Manure was a costly and glaring miss, he has paid a pretty heavy price. Jeez he hasn't been seen near the team since then. For all his faults, (and lets face it they are multi) he at least offers a threat with his pace.
At this moment in time I would select him ahead of the Spaniard any day of the week.
Your point about Fowler is also a fair one. Lets see him with Crouch or Cisse before we write him off.

by **Redrider** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:23 pm

When you lot have hounded Morientes out of the club. Who will you turn on next ?
Your like a bunch from the Middle Ages, calling plain girls witches and burning them at the stake !!

by **dawson99** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:25 pm

Redrider wrote:When you lot have hounded Morientes out of the club. Who will you turn on next ?
Your like a bunch from the Middle Ages, calling plain girls witches and burning them at the stake !!

erm, no. personally my thing is i dont know how mori gets all these chances and cisse doesnt. Rafa is class, we aknow it, but theres something not working or wed be scoring more goals, its that simple

by **48-1119859832** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:02 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Also like to add a brief response to Oasis' " it's not like Fowler, Cisse or Crouch (apart from his header against Man Utd) have provided us with em "

You can hardly give Fowler stick for christs sake the fella only been back 5 minutes , Cisse has had his fair share of stick , perhaps if he had been given the same game time as Morientes with equal lack of success the chorus of disapproval may have been louder, and as Mick has pointed out Crouch at least looks as though he might score ,he was desperately unlucky not to bag two possibly three yesterday .

It's not about questioning a player for me it's about principle more than anything. If Moro is getting stick for not scoring goals then why aren't any of the other's getting the same treatment? After all they haven't scored many either.

Altho I do too agree that Fowler's had too little time, Cisse hasn't had many chances to shine, when he has he has done little to convince me and Crouch altho he creates chances for himself n others that's simply a waste of ability if you can't put them away.

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