Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:46 pm

I was thinking the other day. I had a few rows on here about a year ago with one or two posters who were dead against the zonal defence system. The fellas on BBC absolutely slaughtered Rafa for trying it over here, "can't work in the Prem etc etc".
Well, here we are with the strongest defence in the country and still defending in zones from set-pieces (though I will admit we have very slightly modified the system) and none of the pundits ever mention it anymore.
Why don't they ever playback some of the old footage and ask them what they make of it now? I guess it's because we are only on for about 30 seconds and they haven't got time.

by **greenred** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:53 pm

Im not sure id call Liverpool`s defending "zonal" though Mick.This team last year we were defending space rather than the man.Balls were being headed into our net by unmarked opposition players.That isnt the case anymore,Carra or Hypia are first to the ball no matter where its delivered.

by **bigmick** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:04 pm

Yeah I'd concede mate that we don't defend in zones with the same purity that we did, as we also man-mark the oppositions best headers now. We work quite hard to get Hyppia on or around the penalty spot with a clear look at the ball. We still do front and back posts zonally though it seems to me and it's still different fromt the way most in the Prem try and defend.

by **XSD** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:45 pm

Liverpool simply don't conceed from set pieces now. Can anyone remember the last time someone scored against us from a corner? I can't. Zonal marking has been brilliant.

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:48 pm

Yeah, i was slated to death for suggesting it would work aswell. All the idiots who said it wouldn't have now gone quiet aswell!

What a suprise. If you look at the set up, its more organised and there are man markers aswell, generally though it is zonal.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:52 pm

You will love this article Mick, written by Charlie Nicholas about saturdays game.
p.s. He knows his stuff BTW he says we are 4th

And Andy Gray is the best in the business LOL.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/list.as....icholas
Liverpool are growing in structure and confidence and Rafa Benitez is making them better and they maybe third - but that is where you would pretty much expect them to be.

I compliment them for being there, but they should be in the top three or four all season and a home game against Middlesbrough is exactly the sort of game they should be winning.

They have won six on the spin, but if Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea had failed to beat any of the same sides, they would have been hammered.
Liverpool are going to start facing better opposition over the coming weeks and as they do there are going to be more questions marks against them. There's no doubt Rafa Benitez is a very clever coach - and I'm not just saying that because he's baffled me - but I don't know anyone who can really say what he ultimately wants from this side.

Andy Gray is the best in the business when it comes to analysis and letting the game unfold in front of him, so when I see him having difficulty in working them out, that says it all. Phil Thompson is as biased as they come but while he admits it is great to be in fourth place, in private I know he is not wholly convinced either.

At this moment in time I don't know what Liverpool's principle is. Now that Peter Crouch has got his goal, what do they do? What is the aim? Do they go out and build on the confidence of a run of wins and really attack Boro, or do they go out there with not being beaten as the priority?

I think right now, it is still the latter. I know have made a lot of Djibril Cisse being on his way in January and although it might be down to individuals, I think it is indicative of Liverpool right now. If - and when - Cisse goes, it leaves Crouch, Fernando Morientes and Florent Sinama-Pongolle as the attacking options.

Crouch may have scored last week, but that is one all season, the same as Morientes has in the Premiership. Now Rafa has talked about bringing in new players in the window, but I have heard him talk of central defenders - even though Jamie Carragher and Sami Hyypia have been outstanding, he needs cover - and midfielders, but no forwards.

It suggests to me, that they will carry on setting their stall out not to get beat.

The best compliment I can give them is that they are starting to remind me of George Graham under Arsenal. They know if teams have a go at them they are well-organised and hard to break down and they know they can catch them on the break. Whereas Liverpool sides of old have always been about attacking, I am not convinced by the current way.

They are in form and they should have confidence from the Champions League, but I don't see them being a serious threat to Chelsea - and I am not even sure they can beat Middlesbrough on Saturday.

Boro are one of those sides who are impossible to call, and you really have to take them as you find them on the day. Yes, they played really well at Chelsea, but they have been so up-and-down and they have had so many injuries that they differ dramatically from one week to the next.

On their day though, they can cause anybody problems. I just get the feeling they need to sort out the forward line before they can really be consistent enough to challenge for Europe again.

Steve McClaren needs to have one system: is it going to be Yakubu up front on his own, or two up top, or even Yakubu up front with the other two off him? Yakubu is scoring goals, Mark Viduka has a new lease of life with the World Cup and even Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink has been making a few noises of late, so it is getting close to the crunch.

Three into two just does not go, and he left Viduka on the bench against Chelsea, but I would be inclined to start with Viduka at Anfield, just because he links up play better than the others.

Middlesbrough's midfield is not known for its goalscoring and getting forward and although they are solid enough, that puts extra pressure on the forward line to hold the ball up and provide defences with something different to cope with.

Steve has of course had terrible trouble with injuries. Stewart Downing has been missing, Gaizka Mendieta has not really got going yet, and for me Szilard Nemeth is not the answer because he might score the odd goal, but he is not a great passer or crosser of the ball, so his contribution is limited.

If Middlesbrough get that sorted they could push on, but until they work out what to do with their strikers and have everyone fully fit again, they are pretty hard to predict - so I am going for the draw.

by **A.B.** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:00 am

I hate pundits.

by **Hotrod** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:03 am

i swear if we never got beat all season they wud call us boring i mean i used to think pundits just hated us but they seem to slate evry team i mean there is nothing you can do to impress them fair enough the teams we have bein playin havent all been world beaters but thats not out fault you can only play wats in front of u i wish they wud just shut up coz their beginging to annoy me :angry:

by **red37** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:07 am

beglin 'the blue' was an absolute disgrace the other night, as cggy pointed out. he really gets my goat!

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:20 am

It's not bias, or a lack of coverage that does me in. It's a lack of integrity and in a lot of cases, a lack of knowledge. Now I'm sure if those guys read this they would write me off as a know nothing t0sser who hasn't played professional football. Fair enough but a lot of professional footballers don't study a game like a fan does. Indeed, many of them admit to not watching football at all in their spare time. Danny Mills is a good example of a top footballer (and come on, he has a few International caps so no sniggering) who has absolutely no interest in the wider game by his own admission. Very often these guys get lured into punditry by the sizeable paychecks on offer but can offer very little in the way of insight.
As football becomes ever more tactical, it requires intelligence to understand it. That's not to say that players all need a degree, they don't. Often, a little less intelligence is not a bad thing should you require somebody to be combative or to run until he drops. You do though need intelligence and understanding to manage a football team or to appreciate the tactical nuances and the bigger picture.
Now I know from re-reading this that I sound like a knowitall W@nker here and it's not my intention, but it would be nice if Messr's Hansen and Lawrenson would revisit the question of zones and do a further analysis. They were very quick to find reasons why when our defence was poor, now it looks solid it would be nice if there was a bit of balance. It could be pure coincidence that we've stopped conceding goals but my suspicion is that the system we are emplying has at least a little to do with it.

by **red37** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:06 am

well seeing as though the darlings of the media are no longer dining at the top table. the circus has well and truly decamped to stamford bridge, as was made clear on tuesday.

you could almost smell the resentment before during and after the event. at times pain seemed to be written into the very crows feet of gabby logan....ali mccoist preffered to enlighten us all about rangers f.c and as for jim 'once a red now a blue' beglin words fail me. except 'two-faced get'

plus, it didnt go without note clive tyldesley referencing the great and the good of all things manc, after what, 26 minutes in??? no-mark!

the same for wednesday over on sky sports....it was like a funeral parlour afterwards. richard keys face was "close to tears" at one point...ray wilkins looked ashen faced through out and glenn hoddle could barely move a cheek off his chair without grimace. (ruud gullit though, gave the slight impression of mirth while picking the bones of the game) :laugh:

overall pundits are there for making fools of themselves, which they frequently acheive on merit. they seem to be there for controversial purposes where logic is a place un visited. to make good telly??? S*N worshipping scum love it.
dumbed down and with subtitles for the daft.

although..
niall quinn a couple of weeks ago was very complimentary to peter crouch after a game, it was refreshing to hear.and not at all done in a condescending way... (closet red!)

lawrenson/hansen in my book were legends of our past glories and thats where they should stay. between the pair of them what passes for informed opinion amounts to very little now.
totally different game.

but as for making them go back and review past misdemeanors in light of the inevitable that they are proven to be wrong?.......well pigs are going to fly first im afraid.
the best way to shut them all up is to do exactly what we are doing, quietly going about our business in a humble but efficient way.
lets see lawro's verdict on this next may. i think he'll be eating his words should he remember them!

by **azriahmad** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:13 am

That's why they are pundits, bigmick - quick to start or join the bandwagon of criticism and would utterly forget to give praise or go back and admit that they were wrong in the past and give credit where it is due. Pundits are there only to make a name for themselves so that they will have longevity in their careers.

That's why they are so quick to make headlines for themselves to maintain/gain popularity. They are mainly not cut out to be football managers - due to a lack of ability or simply whimping out of having to endure constant pressure.

Mark Lawrenson is clearly the former as he failed miserably as a manager of a tiny team.

I remembered that Alan Hansen said that he does not want the hassle of constant pressure which is called football management. He said that in 1991 or 1992 after he retired and became a football pundit. At that time, I was residing in England and I remembered him as a breath of fresh air back then with direct and no-nonsense views, although I don't know how his punditry style has changed now as in my parts of the world, we don't get BBC sports coverage, if any we get Sky covered CL games but not EPL. EPL matches are covered by a team in Singapore who would have ex-players or regional based football people who are English with Gerry Armstrong giving his views live from the UK.

by **NiftyNeil** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:21 am

We should all know by now that the pundits love knocking our great club. The zonal marking was just a stick they chose to beat us with at the beginning of last season. This season they have all been banging on about Crouch - even the New at Ten had a go at the fella. Pretty soon they'll be all saying that were boring. It's just the way it goes.

by **greenred** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:21 am

red37 wrote:well seeing as though the darlings of the media are no longer dining at the top table. the circus has well and truly decamped to stamford bridge, as was made clear on tuesday.

you could almost smell the resentment before during and after the event. at times pain seemed to be written into the very crows feet of gabby logan....ali mccoist preffered to enlighten us all about rangers f.c and as for jim 'once a red now a blue' beglin words fail me. except 'two-faced get'

plus, it didnt go without note clive tyldesley referencing the great and the good of all things manc, after what, 26 minutes in??? no-mark!

the same for wednesday over on sky sports....it was like a funeral parlour afterwards. richard keys face was "close to tears" at one point...ray wilkins looked ashen faced through out and glenn hoddle could barely move a cheek off his chair without grimace. (ruud gullit though, gave the slight impression of mirth while picking the bones of the game)

overall pundits are there for making fools of themselves, which they frequently acheive on merit. they seem to be there for controversial purposes where logic is a place un visited. to make good telly??? S*N worshipping scum love it.
dumbed down and with subtitles for the daft.

although..
niall quinn a couple of weeks ago was very complimentary to peter crouch after a game, it was refreshing to hear.and not at all done in a condescending way... (closet red!)

lawrenson/hansen in my book were legends of our past glories and thats where they should stay. between the pair of them what passes for informed opinion amounts to very little now.
totally different game.

but as for making them go back and review past misdemeanors in light of the inevitable that they are proven to be wrong?.......well pigs are going to fly first im afraid.
the best way to shut them all up is to do exactly what we are doing, quietly going about our business in a humble but efficient way.
lets see lawro's verdict on this next may. i think he'll be eating his words should he remember them!

Well said mate.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:46 am

cisses_gona_get_ya wrote:You will love this article Mick, written by Charlie Nicholas about saturdays game.
p.s. He knows his stuff BTW he says we are 4th
And Andy Gray is the best in the business LOL.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/list.as....icholas
Liverpool are growing in structure and confidence and Rafa Benitez is making them better and they maybe third - but that is where you would pretty much expect them to be.

I compliment them for being there, but they should be in the top three or four all season and a home game against Middlesbrough is exactly the sort of game they should be winning.

They have won six on the spin, but if Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea had failed to beat any of the same sides, they would have been hammered.
Liverpool are going to start facing better opposition over the coming weeks and as they do there are going to be more questions marks against them. There's no doubt Rafa Benitez is a very clever coach - and I'm not just saying that because he's baffled me - but I don't know anyone who can really say what he ultimately wants from this side.

Andy Gray is the best in the business when it comes to analysis and letting the game unfold in front of him, so when I see him having difficulty in working them out, that says it all. Phil Thompson is as biased as they come but while he admits it is great to be in fourth place, in private I know he is not wholly convinced either.

At this moment in time I don't know what Liverpool's principle is. Now that Peter Crouch has got his goal, what do they do? What is the aim? Do they go out and build on the confidence of a run of wins and really attack Boro, or do they go out there with not being beaten as the priority?

I think right now, it is still the latter. I know have made a lot of Djibril Cisse being on his way in January and although it might be down to individuals, I think it is indicative of Liverpool right now. If - and when - Cisse goes, it leaves Crouch, Fernando Morientes and Florent Sinama-Pongolle as the attacking options.

Crouch may have scored last week, but that is one all season, the same as Morientes has in the Premiership. Now Rafa has talked about bringing in new players in the window, but I have heard him talk of central defenders - even though Jamie Carragher and Sami Hyypia have been outstanding, he needs cover - and midfielders, but no forwards.

It suggests to me, that they will carry on setting their stall out not to get beat.

The best compliment I can give them is that they are starting to remind me of George Graham under Arsenal. They know if teams have a go at them they are well-organised and hard to break down and they know they can catch them on the break. Whereas Liverpool sides of old have always been about attacking, I am not convinced by the current way.

They are in form and they should have confidence from the Champions League, but I don't see them being a serious threat to Chelsea - and I am not even sure they can beat Middlesbrough on Saturday.

Boro are one of those sides who are impossible to call, and you really have to take them as you find them on the day. Yes, they played really well at Chelsea, but they have been so up-and-down and they have had so many injuries that they differ dramatically from one week to the next.

On their day though, they can cause anybody problems. I just get the feeling they need to sort out the forward line before they can really be consistent enough to challenge for Europe again.

Steve McClaren needs to have one system: is it going to be Yakubu up front on his own, or two up top, or even Yakubu up front with the other two off him? Yakubu is scoring goals, Mark Viduka has a new lease of life with the World Cup and even Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink has been making a few noises of late, so it is getting close to the crunch.

Three into two just does not go, and he left Viduka on the bench against Chelsea, but I would be inclined to start with Viduka at Anfield, just because he links up play better than the others.

Middlesbrough's midfield is not known for its goalscoring and getting forward and although they are solid enough, that puts extra pressure on the forward line to hold the ball up and provide defences with something different to cope with.

Steve has of course had terrible trouble with injuries. Stewart Downing has been missing, Gaizka Mendieta has not really got going yet, and for me Szilard Nemeth is not the answer because he might score the odd goal, but he is not a great passer or crosser of the ball, so his contribution is limited.

If Middlesbrough get that sorted they could push on, but until they work out what to do with their strikers and have everyone fully fit again, they are pretty hard to predict - so I am going for the draw.

I'm sorry CIGGY, I could only read about halfway down that post. I had to stop otherwise I'd have smashed my computer to bits.
This chap spurts more sh*t than a fertilizer machine on overdrive.
Setting our stall out not to get beaten!?! Is he f*cking insane!?! What about battering the feck out of Sh*tski in the CL at Anfield, only to be thwarted by a t*at ref once again!?!
The 3-0 f*ck-up of Anderlect?
The 3-0 ar*e-shagging of Wigan "The High-Flyers"?

It's about time this Charlie Nicholas grabbed a razor blade and slit his own throat.
That way, the b*stard would save me from fisting my monitor with all my might. :angry:

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