Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:31 am

Yes our very own Rafa has his own record of changing the squad a record of 40 times.
I was under the impression that you never change a winning side, look at Eveton last season same players week in week out, got them 4th place, Chelsea another same team week in week out won the prem, same can be said for Arsenals unbeaten run of 49 games same side.

Under Shankly when asked on match day what team was playing he would always say the same team as last week, Paisley and Fagan all the same same side week in week out.
We didnt have state of the art pitches then it was mud and holes kicking an old heavy battered casy round, got a knock have you? Wheres that old bucket and sponge, quick rub down back on the pitch, not like bloody now, they get a knock and are out for weeks, pampered shower the lot of them.

I cannot stand this squad rotation and if that was our best 11 on saturday then Rafa must pick this same team week in week out, so what 2-3 games a week their getting paid enough.

None of our players are used to each others games and the result of this is the problem of the changes to the bloody squad all the time.
Before anyone says but the injuries bla bla from last season, this season nearly everyone has been fit apart from Mellor, Dudek and Kewell.

We need to play the 11 strongest players in the prem every week, Josemi and Traore need to go for a start, and Peter Crouch is not a Liverpool player either and never will be.

If Rafa stops tinkering with the team the results will come thick and fast and we will be in the top half of the table in no time.

I would also like to point out that I am so amazed at the amount of rose tinted Liverpool fans that we have, not just on here but in general, on the phone all last week all people where saying was, we dont care if we finish 4th from bottom we won the European Cup, and if I had a pound for the amount of fans that have said were champions of europe it doesnt matter how bad we play at times, cause we won the european cup, behave yer bloody selves, since when does it not matter how we perform in the prem?

People need to move on that amazing night in europe is in the past now, we need to look to the future and the way we play at times is not acceptable ecspecially to them fans who spend thousand following Liverpool all over the place, they deserve more, and they deserve to see them 11 players giving them entertaining winning football.

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:41 am

Hi Lynds and welcome back mate. I don't know how to post links up or anything like that but there was a similar thing put up last week about this under "And you were wondering why we were so inconsistent" or something like that. Rafa actually copped about the most stick on here of his Liverpool tenure last week after the consecutive defeats, correctly in my view. There weren't too many "In Rafa we trust" 's flying about thats for sure.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:45 am

bigmick wrote:Hi Lynds and welcome back mate. I don't know how to post links up or anything like that but there was a similar thing put up last week about this under "And you were wondering why we were so inconsistent" or something like that. Rafa actually copped about the most stick on here of his Liverpool tenure last week after the consecutive defeats, correctly in my view. There weren't too many "In Rafa we trust" 's flying about thats for sure.

Here you go Mick

by **Ciggy** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:50 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Hi Lynds and welcome back mate. I don't know how to post links up or anything like that but there was a similar thing put up last week about this under "And you were wondering why we were so inconsistent" or something like that. Rafa actually copped about the most stick on here of his Liverpool tenure last week after the consecutive defeats, correctly in my view. There weren't too many "In Rafa we trust" 's flying about thats for sure.

Here you go Mick

Hiya Mick thanx for the welcome back mate,
Garys take on it is better than mine, maybe the MODS can merge this one with his, but basiclly its the same and it needs to be addressed and not ignored.

by **66-1120597113** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:00 am

Totally agree!!
Some of the teams he has selected have beggared belief!A lot of people are saying Raffa does'nt know his best 11 yet!! I dont buy that.Every Lfc supporter in the world could,given the chance field their best 11,if the manager cant we have a problem!
But he can and basically did on Saturday.Did they play great?? No.But they played a hell of a lot better than they have in the league all season!Ive said all along,players need a run of games to find form and can be super fit,but not match fit playing a bit part role week in week out!
Its not a good idea to change 5 or 6 players every game for rest,it does them more harm than good!
I honestly think a lot of players are frustrated at this and Raffa has seen this,maybe words have been said behind closed doors and Raffa has realised that rotation is not the way forward!Lets hope so.
I know tonight is in the C/L but id love to see the same team from Sat!!Starting with the same 11 regularly sends out a positive message to those 11 in saying,'You lot are my best at present and i believe in you'
breeding confidence in the players!! And as for the rest of the squad,as someone said on here last week,basically its up to them to work their socks off and prove they are worthy of 1st place football..nothing wrong with a bit of healthy competition to get the best out of all!!

by **The_Rock** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:22 am

Can't argue with lynds...... currently the players are not playing like a team but like individuals. Not much understanding between the players.....

by **kazza** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:05 pm

Without sounding that I am wearing rose coloured lenses, I would say that Raffa is a working man's manager meaning he did not inherit his position because he was an ex-footballer and all he had to do was finish his "A" badge to become a manager. Rather he is where he is because he has done this for many years, and has earned the right to be a manager. In essence, we know him purely from his accomplishments as a manager.

For people to start threads on "Raffa has no clue" and "Raffa's lost the plot" is comical. For members with less footballing knowledge than the manager to critisize his practices when they do not know the facts (ie there are things that happen in training and fights between players that others would not know).

For me the bottom line is the players were playing with no heart. I do not care how good a manager you are, if players play without heart you will not win. Now this (playing with no heart) is Raffa's responsibility, but it is not about motivation rather it is about purging. This will take time.

Hey Mick, In Raffa we trust (sorry I'm late).

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:14 pm

Welcome back Lynds!

I agree that it does seem to be one of Rafa’s weaknesses – rational team selection! For reasons I simply do not understand, he tinkers with the team more than any other manager in the Premiership. Rarely does the same eleven take the pitch two games in succession, even when all are available. In the past, this has been put down to his tactical prowess. His obsessive analysis of the opposition strengths and weaknesses meaning that he (apparently) carefully calculates the best tactical way to play them. He then picks the line-up accordingly.

But if the results are anything to go by, it simply isn’t working. An average start to this season is actually a continuation of the abject form of last. Last year it could be somewhat forgiven as he was busy off-loading the Houllier players and gradually building ‘his’ team. But the signs so far this season have seen little improvement. Results are no better, goalscoring is worse, league position is worse. We’ve also suffered our worst home defeat since the sixties.

We’re still seeing too much of the Houllier-esque habit of playing the same player in 3-4 different positions over 3-4 successive games. Sometimes as first choice, the next time possibly as substitute. Luis Garcia and Cisse seem to be suffering from this more than most. Poor Garcia has been auxiliary striker, wide right, wide left and substitute. Every player (Gerrard aside) has only one position where they thrive and are truly effective. Of course, utility men like the immense Carragher can slot in to several spots, but he is an exception rather than the rule. The on-going tinkering is doing nothing for consistency, confidence or player morale. There is nothing worse as a player to be finding your feet, your confidence and your form, only to be dumped to the bench or an unfamiliar position the following week. Not only that, but with those alongside you are constantly changing too, how can team unity and flowing football ever be achieved?

The 4-5-1 formation is another of Rafa’s preferred ways of playing – a formation I openly and categorically loathe. Before the supporters of this formation get on my case, yes, I know it can work – with the right players! But we do not have the right players to achieve it – not yet anyway. And until we do, we should NOT play it! We have not a single natural winger in the side. No-one who can consistently turn players inside out the way the likes a Robben or Duff can do. Virtually all of our ‘wide’ midfield men are actually central midfielders, or players who prefer to craft their trade just behind the strikers. (Zenden, Garcia, Kewell.)

The striker situation is no better, and again it comes back to the 4-5-1 formation compounded by the on-going tinkering. Crouch, Morientes and Cisse have all been employed as a lone striker. All have failed. None have shown themself capable of playing it. None have really been given a chance. It’s Crouch one week, Cisse the next, Morientes occasionally. Cisse is then benched or played right wing. To try to better prove my point, did anyone really know who was going to play up front against Crystal Palace and West Ham? The answer – none of us had the foggiest idea!! It was just as likely to have been Harry Kewell or Sinama Pongolle up there as it is the aforementioned players.

Rafa is still learning the English game, but it’s been 16 months now, and a master tactician should be showing signs of having caught on by now – not being beaten by a very ordinary Fulham team going down with barely a whimper. In those 16 months, Liverpool have failed to register a single goal on no fewer than 27 – yes, 27 – occasions in all competitions. That is a very, very worrying statistic, especially when you consider we are currently the second lowest scorers in the Premiership, second only, thankfully, to Everton.

The January window is still over two months away, but there is no guarantee we’re about to unearth 3 or 4 world class players and right all of the current wrongs – in fact, history suggests we’ll be lucky to get 1 or 2 especially given our current plight. If we’re still a bottom half club by then, who would be persuaded to join us?

So Rafa needs to sort it out with the players he has – many of them now ‘his’ signings, so the Houllier excuse is now not valid. Alonso, Sissoko, Morientes, Crouch, Garcia, Josemi, Reina, Zenden are all his. Carra, Gerrard, Hyypia, Riise, Kewell and Traore are all players he has shown great faith in (rightly in some cases, maybe not in others!) Add the likes of Warnock, Dudek and Sinama, and that’s at least seventeen players he has at his disposal to forge a consistent winning unit that should be streets ahead of the Wigans, Charltons and Boltons – not languishing embarrassingly behind them.

So come on Rafa! Show us what you are capable of, and prove the doubters wrong. Istanbul is history. 2005-2006 is now what matters, rolling up the sleeves and using the likes of Fulham as cannon fodder.

I can only hope that the ‘clear the air’ session at Melwood last week did the trick. West Ham was a definite step in the right direction but any more slip-ups and we’re in danger of sinking into oblivion this season – and in this day and age, even one disastrous season can have severe repercussions on successive ones.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:08 pm

I cannot stand this squad rotation and if that was our best 11 on saturday then Rafa must pick this same team week in week out, so what 2-3 games a week their getting paid enough.

This is where your lack of understanding of football comes in.

Firstly at the start of the season at ALL levels it takes a few games to get into the swing of things and at the start of the season players pick up knocks, muscle pains and strains easily. As the season gets into its second month the fitness levels are all as expected.

Now, i don't care what level you play at, if you come of the pitch having put 100% in you ALWAYS feel it the day after and can normally feel it still the day after that. The higher the levels you go up, the more tiring it is.

I've played with Wrexham, Stockport and Wigan reserves. Believe me, thats :censored:

hard work. At the time, i was quite fit, alot fitter than the average bloke on the street put it that way. These players play on massive pitches at a VERY VERY high tempo. The game is so fast you wouldn't believe it. People go on about the game over here and say about how all these players have so much time on the ball in the premiership, to be honest, its complete and utter :censored:

.

You don't get a second unless you earn it. Also, the pace of the game from one end to the other is unbelievabley quick.

I'm still quite a fit lad, (gym 3 times a week, footy 2/3 times a week) if i played a premiership match the chances are i'd be absoloutely dead on my feet after 20 minutes. Probably even 15.

It takes a long long time to build up that kind of stamina, see Steven Warnock....

Also, just because these players are on that kind of money doesn't mean we should expect them not to be human beings. They are unbelievabley fit and unbelievabley athletic but the fact is, due to the pace of the modern day game they can struggle at times to play every match.

Now i do agree, that some players don't play when they could. But the fact is players do get tired and muscle aches etc. The pace the game is played at these days, its no suprise.

The pace of the game is alot faster than it used to be. The players have to be fitter to cope with it, the only thing is, the players can only reach a certain fitness level.

by **Ciggy** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:23 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
I cannot stand this squad rotation and if that was our best 11 on saturday then Rafa must pick this same team week in week out, so what 2-3 games a week their getting paid enough.

This is where your lack of understanding of football comes in.

Im not even back here 24 hours and there you go again, find another f.ucking target Stu cause Ive got more on my plate than taking insults from you.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:26 pm

True though isn't it Lyndsey.

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:33 pm

stu_the_red wrote:True though isn't it Lyndsey.

I'm not sure it is Stu really. Lots of people (myself included) got on this particular bandwagon last week after the Palace defeat. I don't think it shows a lack of football knowledge to feel that Rafa changes the team too much, I certainly do and many others would agree.
Admittedly it's unrealistic in this day and age to expect everybody to play every on of the 2 or 3 games a week and in this particular instance you are correct, but probably not justified to insinuate that hankereing after the old days signifies lack of knowledge. Lots of people come on here and trot out the old lines about when we were winning the league we didn't rotate etc etc don't appreciate the way the games changed but it's a side issue of the whole thrust of the post. The point of the post was that rafa changes the team too often and to too great an extent. I reckon you'd probably agree with that aswell.

by **wrighty (not mark!)** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:48 pm

do you want a big hat stu?

I'll buy you one if you want!?

by **Ciggy** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:56 pm

stu_the_red wrote:True though isn't it Lyndsey.

Yer what ever you say.............. you win, I have no right being here or posting on here or supporting Liverpool cause Im female. You must have an awful lot of awards for being the best keyboard gangsta of all time, congrats and good bye.
Oh yer and this will be my last answer to you so dont bother trying to annoy me again cause your gettin ignored, quit while your ahead, wasnt going to bring it up like, but since you cant resist the constant digs and insults towards me. I may be forced to tell people on here the things youve said to another female member on here in pm.

by **thegreedo** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:08 pm

cisses_gona_get_ya wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:True though isn't it Lyndsey.

Yer what ever you say.............. you win, I have no right being here or posting on here or supporting Liverpool cause Im female. You must have an awful lot of awards for being the best keyboard gangsta of all time, congrats and good bye.

"You go girl!!"

I'm proud of you Lynds.

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Amazing rafa has changed the team 40 times

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