Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:55 am

Well what a surprise. To be honest I feel disheartened that there are some (although a small minority) calling for Rafa's head just because we haven't been doing so well lately. This is highly uncalled for if you ask me. There are even more people disillusionned with the progress our beloved team have been making since the historic Champions League win. Yes I am also disappointed with the recent results but I am not disillusionned... yet. I've said for a while that we can't hide behind the "we're champions of europe" tag any longer. What matters is the here and now, and at the moment our confidence appears to be shot to pieces. However I'm still positive and here's why.

Rafael Benitez

This is a man who knows what he is doing... look beyond what your natural eyes can see. So many have said he has lost the plot, he doesn't know what to do in the EPL, he only knows how to manage a team in Europe etc etc...
But take a break and start looking around the entirety of the picture in LFC.

This is a man who knows he cannot compete against the likes of Chelski who has the deepest pockets on the planet. This is a man who knows he can't compete against Scum and Arsenal as his players are not up to a level in which they can compete. So he goes and start changing systems (not tactical systems on the pitch by the way).

He has changed our scouting system. When was the last you ever heard before Rafa appeared that we were actually interested in players in South America? Young players from South America, with bags of potential? I am not talking about Ronaldinho and those high profile players..... but youths that are unheard of. He has revamped our entire scouting system to counteract the areas which we can do little about against Chelski (money), Scum and Arsenal (current quality of players).

He has revamed our style of play. This is a man who knows that the way forward was to change our defensive style into zonal defence. How we moaned and groaned at the results in the 1st half of the season. How we prayed that he would revert back to man-to-man marking during set pieces. I know this... cos' I am one of the guilty ones. But lo and behold, when our defenders finally understood (after a long time) this way of defending, they clicked and we shut out the millionaires of Chelsea who were running away with the EPL, the champions of Italy (who boasts of the likes of Buffon, Thuram, Nedved etc) and the mighty Milan who boast of attacking greats like Shevchenko and Kaka and defensive solidarity of the likes of Maldini and Nesta.

This is a man who plans so meticulously that he even dared to play Kewell in the CL Final (don't start thinking it was the wrong move but see why he did it).... to stifle the runs of Cafu. Even after Kewell came off, he played Smicer (another player we all groaned when we saw him coming on) to continue keeping Cafu in defence so we won't get torn apart at the wings on the left. He sees things that we cannot see at first... but if you think carefully, this is not a man who lost his mind, but have thought through all things pretty much.

Yes, maybe he underestimated Kaka and Milan as a whole... but in all honesty, Gerrard and Alonso (who most of us think is the best central midfield pairing ever in years to come) played really poorly in the 1st half... but yet Rafa is able to see what was happening and bring on Hamann. Hamann ain't exactly a attacking substitution (we cheered when we saw Hamann so why do we moan when we see Traore coming on for a really poor Warnock) but Rafa was able to change the status quo on the pitch. And all these plus playing Gerrard as a right back etc cemented that 5th Cup in our trophy cabinet, something the Scum, Bitters and even Chelsea can even dream of.

Crouch

Crouch hasn't scored yet for LFC. I, for one, never thought he was bought to score goals as an outright goalscorer. Some feel that he is a provider, but I don't really feel that same way too. I feel that Crouch was bought with the long-term purpose of changing the style of play that we have right now.

We saw what he did with Valencia. He transformed a team of underachievers into a team with very little flaws. And this is precisely what he aims to do with us. Our passing has become more fluid (although there are some guilty parties who loses the ball with alarming regularity). We are no longer hoofing the ball that much but still old habits die hard. We defend more compactly now.

So I see Crouch as just one of many missing pieces in his BIG masterplan to revamp everything that we are used to. Hopefully, he would start proving us wrong personally and start putting away a few.

Transfers

A lot has gone on about the ones who got away... Simao, Kuyt, Milito.... and even Owen. A lot believe that since Rafa has spent 40-45m on players, we should have more to show for it.

Firstly, Rafa probably had closer to about 15-20m to spend... his subsequent selling of players got him to about 40-45m. So that would be about 15-20m for TWO seasons..... we can't even buy SWP for that. He is not interested in stop gap measures. That's why I believe he went for Crouch, who ain't Batistuta in his hey days. Plus, transfers are like gambles...

Some pays rightaway (Alonso), some only pays sometime later (hopefully most of our buys and to a certain extent Smicer, to me it was quite worth the wait for him to come good to score in the CL Finals), some you wished you never got into (Diao and friends)

No manager ever gets their buys correct...

Slur Alex has his fair share of Verons and Forlans... both came with great reputations but struggled big time in the EPL. But now both reclaiming their previous reputations with their current clubs. He also had buys which came good straightaway like Heinze and Rooney (who may be discounted cos' he already plays in the EPL).

But before anyone starts on how we should buy local and domestic... there is also a staggering number of home-bred players who leaves a lot to be desired. Beattie is a world beater at the Bitters. Dyer, who came with such hugh promise is still trying to repair his what's left of his reputation... among many others.

Wenger bought the diving tw@t that is Jeffers for 10m. Even Diouf was more useful than him. Even the likes of Gilberto hasn't completely convinced me yet, and he is probably one of those who will end up well in the long run.

Moaninho has Tiago for 10m and sold him for between 6-7m. Not that it would hurt the deep pockets of Chelski. Dogbath is only starting to look like a 24m striker.... only starting too, I am not convinced as yet.

Once again, we aren't Chelski so we don't have the luxury of buying half the planet for trial and error. We just have to buy and honestly hope for the best. The likes of Kuyt and Simao, if they come, would come with great expectations but they are still as likely to succeed (or fail) as the next foreign or domestic signing. Even buying Owen back (which I happen to be dead against) would not guarantee he would score bags of goals for us.

Let's hope that our players would prove us all wrong and start beginning to look like what Rafa knew they could become.

Conclusion

All in all, it takes TIME for Rafa to implement these changes.... a lot of us are impatient.... especially when we saw Scum pick up nearly every piece of silverware in the 90s. We desperately want to get back to where we belong... right at the top. But this takes time. We have a manager who knows what he wants, who knows what he is doing, and has the guts to implement those changes.

So give Rafa time and the players time. They would start to finally get the picture of what Rafa really had in mind. It's going to take time, mind you. I am patient enough (I hope) to see the golden sky at the end of the storm. We have been putting up with poor mediocre performances for so long already (from Souness' reign), with the odd high spot here and there, so what's another few months or even seasons.... to finally see a new era of Red domination.

by ***XABIALONSO*** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:57 am

I aint asking for rafa to go but it is not exceptable for us to get beat by palace lose 1-4 to chelsea draw with bham
he does need to buck his ideas up

by **mistyred** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:04 pm

Last night Crouch looked like a wounded animal, I think the chants made him Sh*te himself, to be fair i think that's something he is going to have to put up with and if he can't then he will not have the effect he was bought for.

Secondly i think the squad needs to be broken up and new blood shipped in as the players look stail and look too used to the surroundings, Meaning some just about turn up for the match and when they do it's a case of if i don't deal with this cross i know he will type of attitude.

Last night was a for gone conclusion i am afraid to say as the players barring a few just don't have the fight, you have to love this club and money can't buy you love.

by **Reporter69** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:06 pm

All I can see in the initial post are excuses.

The usual, we dont have money like Chelsea or quality like Arsenal. Even they have made mistakes like Forlan and Gilberto and Drogba.

Thats the kind of stuff that you live on, its surprising no one can stand up and say Liverpool is playing :censored:

and something needs to be done soon or else its all over.

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:13 pm

At the moment I suspect Rafa is just being too stubborn sticking with a system that clearly isn't working in the Premiership. Let's face it, Boro and Spurs aside, we've been pretty awful this season. Rafa just doesn't have the players to play the system he wants at the moment. I think he feels that he can turn our current squad into better more dynamic players who can play his system. That's going to take along time and can anyone ever really see the likes of Traore being fast, fluent and comfortable on the ball?

When Rafa finally get the players in who can play the system he likes, he can then start to adapt his tactics.

At present we should be playing 4-4-2 with Cisse as one of the first names on the team sheet. He's the only one of our strikers who looks like a genuine goal threat and is able to stretch teams with his pace. Cisse's pace would give Gerrard, Alonso and Garcia etc more space to play and be creative. Strikers need games to find their touch. It seems an almost criminal waste to see Cisse on the bench or worse playing right wing.

We are very pedestrian going forward and end up having to play our football in far too compressed space. This leads to the long ball option to Crouch being used far too often.

We are also now a team clearly lacking confidence. Play a settled 11, with two up front in the Premiership and we'll start to win games and build confidence.

by **stoney** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:43 pm

I share your views st mick. Good post :nod

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:47 pm

It's simple. What some people have been saying is complete garbage. The truth is, if we go and beat West Ham 4-0 on Saturday (you never know, it might happen), nobody will even be talking about the Palace game.

We have a manager here whose track record is second to none, he's won just about everything there is to win as a manager, and he's only young for a boss yet, he's done this with little or no money too, proving that he can do anything if he has the right tools for the job.

Yet alot of people are questioning his position already at the club because the players on the pitch aren't producing. Some are going way way way over the top in fact, and are over-stepping the mark.

Rafa took two tiny Spanish clubs to La Liga and kept them there, he then took charge at a club who were threatening to be pretty good, lost his three best players almost straight away, and then lead them to the title. On basically nothing. He then repeated that trick two seasons later, and don't forget, he was up against 2 clubs for whom money is no object and had a policy of signing the best players in the world, and added a UEFA cup just for good measure. With no money. Just players who were willing to give there all for the club and make his tactics work.

He then gets a call from one of the biggest clubs in the world who had hit a seriously rocky patch and were looking for a steady hand to guide them. What does he do? Wins us the Champions League, beating the cream of Europe on the way and out-thinking the best coaches in the world. In his first season in charge. And with all the problems that come with it.

We've not hit it off yet in the league to say the least, which is the world's biggest understatement, but the signs are there. We have been better away from home, bar Saturday, and we are better off results-wise so far this season, bar Saturday. We are struggling for goals, but the creativity is there, we're just missing the chances.

Look at the stats for last nights game, 19-8 in our favour with regards to efforts on goal, and I bet at least 4 of them were real goal-scoring opportunities. That's down to the profligacy of the strikers or whoever, not the manager. Do you think he is sat there in the dug-out willing them to miss? Or teaching them to miss in training? Seriously, people need to grow up, and people need to wake up and look long and hard at themselves.

If you want to take your anger out on anyone, vent it at the eleven millionaires playing in red who can't lift themselves. Not the manager who is giving his personal life to try and take this club back to the top of the league. I'm sick and fed up of reading childish pathetic comments criticising Rafa for things which he can't control and cost us the points or a chance to get through to the next round.

What is the point?

It achieves nothing, apart from make the original poster look like a fool. I understand that no manager is perfect, they all make mistakes, and ours is no different, but if you're going to beat him with a stick, make sure he deserves it first.

Saturday was a shambles. Last night was a shambles. I'll bet this coming Saturday we're a million miles better though, and eventually we will click and come to life full time. If the players are willing to give that little bit extra.

And match what their manager is already giving.

by **Paul C** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:01 pm

I haven't asked for Rafa's head but it's frustrating that we haven't made any progress in the league and thats our 'bread and butter'

by **dum1** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:06 pm

St Michael

Then according to you then he's already proven it and is above criticism, I think last nights performance and the problems lay firnly at his door. The point is the slide is happening before our eyes and as fans we are entitled to question decisions, its not about being disloyal.

Disloyalty is about not supporting the club and not some temporary custodian who may not be around next season but the team and supporters live on.

Those rose tinted spectacles are they same you wore when GH was about, and I for one hope you are right but the stats tell me otherwise. We don't question what is going on for the sake of it but for some understanding as to what is wrong and presently we don't have the answers nor can I see it likely to happen in the near future.

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:16 pm

dum1 wrote:St Michael

Then according to you then he's already proven it and is above criticism, I think last nights performance and the problems lay firnly at his door. The point is the slide is happening before our eyes and as fans we are entitled to question decisions, its not about being disloyal.

Disloyalty is about not supporting the club and not some temporary custodian who may not be around next season but the team and supporters live on.

Those rose tinted spectacles are they same you wore when GH was about, and I for one hope you are right but the stats tell me otherwise. We don't question what is going on for the sake of it but for some understanding as to what is wrong and presently we don't have the answers nor can I see it likely to happen in the near future.

Listen

I agree in principle with most of what you say but leadership is what is needed in a crisis (no it's not a crisis yet), and I agree that Rafa has to take the flack for the bad performances along with the players. GH took it and ultimately paid the price for average performances from average players.

I'm not making Rafa out to be some sort of god because he won the CL last year. He's made mistakes and hopefully he can rectify them. I still have faith in his ability to get it right but then again that's also down to the players aswell. There are too many who just aren't doing it at the moment.

by **metalhead** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:36 pm

Mick great post agree in all of the points

but the thing is rafa tried a 4-4-2 system yesterday and we lost the game! this means we either need to work on our strikers or buy new quality ones

by **neil** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:51 pm

We finished a poor 5th last season behind the b-s.*i*e, this year we are 25% through the season and are languishing just above the relegation area. crisis.

by ***XABIALONSO*** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:01 pm

neil wrote:We finished a poor 5th last season behind the b-s.*i*e, this year we are 25% through the season and are languishing just above the relegation area. crisis.

something needs to be done and fast

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:10 pm

I went to the game last night (whoopee!) and thought that though we did OK in the first-half and were possibly a shade unlucky to go in level at half-time, we were absolutely desperate in the second half.
I'm a big student of body language and throughout the team the vibe that something is drastically wrong was obvious. Misplaced passes were greeted with shrugs of bemusement, nonplussed expressions the answer to rafa's increasingly frantic touchline urgings.
In all honesty, and I considered starting a new thread on this, I think if things don't improve then Rafa will walk. Anybody who saw him walk off the pitch last night and watched after-match interview can see he is a man in a corner right now. The dogs are barking at the front door and anybody who refuses to admit they are there is deaf and blind.

Liverpool Football Club is about to enter one of it's most crucial couple of months in its recent history in my opinion. Don't pretend this is a blip because it is more than that. The future of the manager is in his own hands because the board would never sack him. I hope he can turn it around though because if not I think he will be gone, of his own valition before the January window.

by **Paul C** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:32 pm

bigmick wrote:Liverpool Football Club is about to enter one of it's most crucial couple of months in its recent history in my opinion. Don't pretend this is a blip because it is more than that. The future of the manager is in his own hands because the board would never sack him. I hope he can turn it around though because if not I think he will be gone, of his own valition before the January window.

Daily Post journalists say the same, the said yesterday they think come April that Rafa will no longer be the Liverpool manager.

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