Liverpool FC Forum

by **The Canadian Red Army** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:13 am

A.B. wrote:
The Canadian Red Army wrote:great post AB from your friendly neighbur hood canadian

I'm flattered.

hey whats wrong with that

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:15 am

stu_the_red wrote:We're at a decent level, Houllier had taken us further than the level we're at now, but it started to go wrong once he returned from injury, but i think Benitez (long term) can better Houllier's acheivements.

Yes, Houllier brought us up to a fairly high level although this was based on a particular brand of football which was questioned by certain quarters at the time (particularly in 2001/02) and those critics were proved correct in the long term.

People should not forget how mentally strong we were under Houllier in the second half of the 2000/01 season, and how we emerged as a power (of sorts) in the league and CL in 2001/02.

However, even back then problems started to emerge with our home performances, as a lot of teams came to Anfield and paid us too much respect and sat back and defended, causing us problems. The following year a lot of teams spotted this and we became (relatively) vulnerable at home.

I'm a fan of Rafeal Benitez but some of the hype at the moment is questionable. He is starting from scratch with some new players and a completely new system, and if we are to be objective about it, in relative terms (and its all about how strong you are compared to your rivals) we are no better now than we were in 1999/2000. Of course we are playing some better football now than back then, but if you compare our rivals now to back then you'd see something like this:

1. Leeds (about 10% today of what they were then)
2. Newcastle (about 110%)
3. Man UTD (about 70%)
4. Arsenal (about 130%)
5. Chelsea (about 200%).

Man UTD were top dogs in 1999/2000, being miles better than us. They have declined by their very lofty standards in the league back then, and are now a bit better than us (face it Scum haters, they are still better than us). Arsenal were Man UTD's main rivals in 1999/2000, but now than are considerably better than that year. You might remember Leeds being around that season and doing some good things, but now they are out of the equation. The other side was Chelsea, a decent, stylish Premiership side in 1999/2000 who could do some considerable damage to any side on their day, but now they have improved beyond all recognition (and you could say that even before their recent run of good results and amazing displays by Arjen Robben) and are now at least twice as good as they were in 1999/2000.

Its very encouraging that we have shown some improvement, but the defeat at home to Birmingham should illustrate that we are still a long way off the required level. The Birmingham defeat can be compared to us losing to lowly Watford at Anfield about 3 months into the 1999/2000 season.

Don't forget that before Christmas 1999 we beat Chelsea and Arsenal at home, indeed the Arsenal performance in autumn 1999 was probably better than any performance we have produced under Benitez.

In 1999/2000 we weren't really a Premiership force (the same can be said today) and looking back on it then there was a hell of a lot of hype and optimism as the improvements we saw in 1999/2000 were a huge relief from the stagnation we saw in previous years. Houllier tried to change the ineffective pretty football of the Roy Evans' years with a more defensive, counter attacking style based on power and atleticism, and at the time, although a lot of Liverpool fans were not 100% happy about it, it was seen by many as the way forward. I think Houllier had in mind a side like Mourinho's Porto and or even the current Chelsea side as the ultimate goal, but it wasn't to be.

Like Houllier Benitez is attempting to build a new approach on the ruins of a failed approach, and that will take time. As for improvement, yes, we have improved over last year, but it must be remembered that, for one reason or another, last year in someways set us as far back as 1998/99 did (even though our league finish last year was SO much better than in 98/99 we were light years away from the top sides) and we couldn't BUT improve, as we had no where else to go.

Hopefully the difference is that Benitez's brand of football is proven (his record speaks for itself) whereas Houllier's philosophy had mixed results for him before and during his time at Liverpool, and hopefully it truly is the way forward.

by **The Canadian Red Army** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:23 am

another great post

by **A.B.** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:25 am

John Barnes' Granny wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:We're at a decent level, Houllier had taken us further than the level we're at now, but it started to go wrong once he returned from injury, but i think Benitez (long term) can better Houllier's acheivements.

Yes, Houllier brought us up to a fairly high level although this was based on a particular brand of football which was questioned by certain quarters at the time (particularly in 2001/02) and those critics were proved correct in the long term.

People should not forget how mentally strong we were under Houllier in the second half of the 2000/01 season, and how we emerged as a power (of sorts) in the league and CL in 2001/02.

However, even back then problems started to emerge with our home performances, as a lot of teams came to Anfield and paid us too much respect and sat back and defended, causing us problems. The following year a lot of teams spotted this and we became (relatively) vulnerable at home.

I'm a fan of Rafeal Benitez but some of the hype at the moment is questionable. He is starting from scratch with some new players and a completely new system, and if we are to be objective about it, in relative terms (and its all about how strong you are compared to your rivals) we are no better now than we were in 1999/2000. Of course we are playing some better football now than back then, but if you compare our rivals now to back then you'd see something like this:

1. Leeds (about 10% today of what they were then)
2. Newcastle (about 110%)
3. Man UTD (about 70%)
4. Arsenal (about 130%)
5. Chelsea (about 200%).

Man UTD were top dogs in 1999/2000, being miles better than us. They have declined by their very lofty standards in the league back then, and are now a bit better than us (face it Scum haters, they are still better than us). Arsenal were Man UTD's main rivals in 1999/2000, but now than are considerably better than that year. You might remember Leeds being around that season and doing some good things, but now they are out of the equation. The other side was Chelsea, a decent, stylish Premiership side in 1999/2000 who could do some considerable damage to any side on their day, but now they have improved beyond all recognition (and you could say that even before their recent run of good results and amazing displays by Arjen Robben) and are now at least twice as good as they were in 1999/2000.

Its very encouraging that we have shown some improvement, but the defeat at home to Birmingham should illustrate that we are still a long way off the required level. The Birmingham defeat can be compared to us losing to lowly Watford at Anfield about 3 months into the 1999/2000 season.

Don't forget that before Christmas 1999 we beat Chelsea and Arsenal at home, indeed the Arsenal performance in autumn 1999 was probably better than any performance we have produced under Benitez.

In 1999/2000 we weren't really a Premiership force (the same can be said today) and looking back on it then there was a hell of a lot of hype and optimism as the improvements we saw in 1999/2000 were a huge relief from the stagnation we saw in previous years. Houllier tried to change the ineffective pretty football of the Roy Evans' years with a more defensive, counter attacking style based on power and atleticism, and at the time, although a lot of Liverpool fans were not 100% happy about it, it was seen by many as the way forward. I think Houllier had in mind a side like Mourinho's Porto and or even the current Chelsea side as the ultimate goal, but it wasn't to be.

Like Houllier Benitez is attempting to build a new approach on the ruins of a failed approach, and that will take time. As for improvement, yes, we have improved over last year, but it must be remembered that, for one reason or another, last year in someways set us as far back as 1998/99 did (even though our league finish last year was SO much better than in 98/99 we were light years away from the top sides) and we couldn't BUT improve, as we had no where else to go.

Hopefully the difference is that Benitez's brand of football is proven (his record speaks for itself) whereas Houllier's philosophy had mixed results for him before and during his time at Liverpool, and hopefully it truly is the way forward.

I am only talking about the improvement since our last two seasons. It is always difficult to get good results with a new manager but we are doing quite well thus far and even though we are far away from being a threat to Arsenal and Chelsea we have improved in a short amount of time.

Who would had thought that Igor Biscan would be man of the match in the Champions League against Deportivo La Caruna? The fact that a player like Biscan who was garbage[even though he was played out of position] last season has tremendously changed in a matter of months shows that Rafael Benitez is one of the best managers around. I am not trying to jinx the man but the fact that we are a different side than we were last year proves the difference between Gerrard Houllier and Rafael Benitez, which shows that we are progressing and shown improvement in a matter of months.

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:33 am

I wasn't directing my post at you AB but as a word of warning to people getting over optimisitic.

I remember the optimism in 1999/2000 and its ver similar to what we have now.

Sure, guys like Biscan and Troare have improved under Benitez, but that is not to say that certain players did not improve under Houllier.

Patrick Berger had a brilliant start to his Liverpool career but he then went into serious stagnation. In Houllier's first 12 months in charge Berger looked like he had stepped up another level, until injury cruelly robbed him of all the progress he made.

Danny Murphy has his critics but if Igor Biscan ever matched his level then he would have really started to justify his fee. Murphy was an unused and unwanted squad player in Roy Evans day, a useless expensive purchase on the fringes of the squad (sound familar). Murphy went on to be an important member of Houllier's initial success, and Murphy himself attributed it all to Houllier's man management.

Jamie Carragher also went from being a middling young midfield player to a top class Premiership defender under Gerrard Houllier.

It was also Houllier that gave Gary McAllister a new lease of life.

Its still too early to make long term assumptions about Benitez (and I'm not saying you are AB) but progress is being made, but in real, relative terms, that progress is slow. Hopefully after Xmas we'll start seeing consistent tangible results on the field.

by **adayinthelife** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:47 am

John Barnes' Granny wrote:I'm a fan of Rafeal Benitez but some of the hype at the moment is questionable.
Hopefully the difference is that Benitez's brand of football is proven (his record speaks for itself) whereas Houllier's philosophy had mixed results for him before and during his time at Liverpool, and hopefully it truly is the way forward.

Well said and maybe fans are hyping Benitez but I think when we have a manager who won 2 league titles in 3 seasons with a team who had not won the league in 30 years we have cause for optimism.

We were never going to win the league the way we were playing under houllier and the last team to do so was leeds under wilkinson over 10 years ago.

Arsenal have raised the bar and to catch up Benitez will have to be very astute in the transfer market which is something he has no track record of as he was never given any money at Valencia.

It goes without saying keeping Gerrard will be vital to have any chance of winning the title in the near future but I have a bad feeling that the more spaniards that arrive the more likely he will leave.

by **A.B.** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:43 am

If Gerrard does decide to leave will that mean that we will crumble in the Premiership?

I think not. Stevie is one of the best midfielders in the world and any big club will be offering him huge amounts of money. Let's say that Real Madrid are indeed infact interested in him. Do you realize how much money we will be able to make by selling Gerrard? With that kind of money we could buy more than one or two players.

I can not see why Gerrard would leave because of Spaniards, had that been the case he would had left during the summer as he knew that our manager was a Spaniard and it is obivious that the players would come from mostly from Spain because Benitez knows the market well enough.

Wenger did the same thing when he came to Arsenal. He bought French talent for a low amount of money [unlike Houllier] and won the Premiership with them. He bought Patrick Viera from AC Milan for 2.5 million pounds and now he is worth 20 times more than that.

by **kazza** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:45 am

A.B. wrote:
kazza wrote:he he he

If you are going to reedem yourself by posting something other than sh!t such as your last post then at least have something better than "he he he".

Don't flatter yourself you idiot. I lost my connection before I finished what I was going to say.

Thing is AB you seem to have a strong view on everything, which diminishes the value of what you say. I often read what I do not agree with, but I let them have their opinion. It is theirs and they are entitled to it. You have this obsession with getting the last word, like a spoiled little kid (the reason why everyone thinks you are a kid, is because you act like one).

Why I say get a life is bacause you seem to spend lots of time on your computer. I use this forum to gain access to information about my beloved Liverpool who I have supported through thick and thin (for over 25 years) and NOT to make friends and fill my head with my own self importance. Unlike you, I have never flip-flopped on who I support. I always have and always will be a Red.

When I first joined this forum, I said we will not win anything with Dudek as goalie. AB got down my throat about how I am the worst kind of Fan, how AB hates fans like me(blah blah blah). He then went on to tell me he was going to kick my a$$. Imagine that, AB is going to kick my a$$. How funny is that (especially since he knows nothing about who I am). It was at that point that I formed an opinion on AB and he has never shown me anything to to change that. I am sure that others are happy that you spend so much time posting on everything, but it does not change the fact that you seem like a real a$$hole, and I sense you live through this forum. Normally I would not say anything, but you bring the worst in me, and as I have mentioned, you seem like a real a$$hole with no friends.

You said you were "my sisters lover". Give me a break, I have never met a man (who was not a complete fag), in that situation who would use the word "lover". I think what you should have said was "I f.u.cked your sister", or even "I shagged your sister", but "lover"? What a joke you are. If you were going to kick my a$$, I sense that I would have nothing to worry about, as long as you did not use your nails or pull hair.

Bottom line AB, you are sometimes correct, and sometimes incorrect. It is your opinion, nothing more. I would like to know what you will say about Raffa, if we go on a bad run(that is what this post is about). Afterall, you seem to think you know all. Maybe you should send your CV (resume to those retards that don't speak ENGLISH) to the Liverpool board. Tell them you know everything about football and tell them to check this site. Maybe through this forum you can give your life some meaning.

Have you ever played football? You will say yes, but I think not? My only regret is I have to wait untill AB wakes up to read his reply. I am waiting Anus Bandit.

by **Redtribe** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:08 pm

Oh another post turning into a personal slanging match!

Fantastic!

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:34 pm

Was it Rafeal Benitez who purchased Aimar for Valencia or was it Hector Cuper? I'm not 100% positive about it but I think it may have been Benitez. If it was the case that Benitez bought him, then he was a major buy, because to my recollection he cost £12m.

If Gerrard was to leave Liverpool we might suffer in the short term on the playing side but we'd eventually get over it. However, selling Gerrard (or rather him wanting to go to a "bigger" team and we being powerless to stop it) would be one of the hardest blows the club ever had to suffer from a psychological point of view as it would be a de facto admission that we have fallen behind. It would be a terrible blow to the fans too, far greater than Ian Rush leaving for Juventus in 1987. Steve McMannaman leaving in 1999 or Owen last summer.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:35 pm

kazza wrote:Afterall, you seem to think you know all. Maybe you should send your CV (resume to those retards that don't speak ENGLISH) to the Liverpool board.

I feel I must correct you here, CV is actually short for curriculum vitae, which is from the latin and literaly translates as "the course of (one's) life"
Dictionary Definition being : a short account of one's career and qualifications prepared typically by an applicant for a position or employment application.

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:36 pm

Another thread which will have to be closed as it is degenrating into a slagging match.

This is getting bloody annoying as there were some very good posts in their.

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