Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

This was on Football 365, and the fella seems to me to be making a fairly sensible appraisal of Rafa's tenure. I don't agree with all of it, but do agree with some of it. What do you reckon?

One thing I would say, is that Rafa is currently teetering on the brink of being either an excellent manager, or conversely one who we spent too much time with. Another season or two without a trophy, or a failure to sustain a title challenge next term and it will be interesting. On the other hand, go close in the league again and win a trophy, and it'll start to look good. Not quite make or break, but certainly the point for a sensible judgement is approaching.

Anyways, here's the blokes atricle....

Rafa Benitez arrived at Anfield five years ago this week, and in that time plenty has occured. So what's gone well, and what badly? Nick Miller looks at the good and bad of Rafa's half decade...



THE GOOD


Signing Fernando Torres, Xabi Alonso and Pepe Reina
Quite good players, these three. Would any of them be in the Premier League if it wasn't for Benitez? Real Madrid were Alonso's other main suitor in 2004 (still are), Torres might still be at Atletico had Liverpool not come up with the cash, while Reina would most likely have moved back to Barcelona. In these three - along with Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher - Benitez has created a spine around which Liverpool's success is based, and if he does something daft (like selling Alonso) this summer, their continued title challenge will almost certainly falter.



Keeping - then getting the best from - Steven Gerrard
When Benitez arrived, two of Liverpool's best players were about to jump ship. While Michael Owen left, Gerrard was persuaded to stay (just a couple of weeks after Benitez's appointment too) despite offers of riches and instant success from Chelsea. It happened again the following summer, and while Gerrard claimed it was an emotional decision, Benitez would no doubt have been a major factor.


Keeping him was only a half-success though. After a couple of years shoving him out to the right and occasionally the left of midfield, Benitez realised that his true potential could only be brought out in his current 'free' role. While it might be a stretch to say Benitez alone has converted him from midfielder to support striker, he must be praised for allowing Gerrard to roam free.



Istanbul
The story goes that, as the entire Liverpool side and staff were cavorting around the Ataturk Stadium pitch, Benitez took Jamie Carragher aside and offered some constructive criticism about his positioning during the game.


It's this sort of cold attention to detail that was the centre of Liverpool's comeback. Amid the chaos of half-time, and after setting out a formation that included 12 players, Benitez had the nous and awareness to realise that he had to introduce Dietmar Hamman in order to protect his ravaged defence and midfield. Without this Liverpool probably wouldn't have scored those three goals in six minutes, and certainly wouldn't have prevented Milan from adding more.



Reigniting a rivalry
In this generation of football, there can be few things more flattering than Alex Ferguson recognising you are a threat. The difference between Ferguson's treatment of Benitez and Arsene Wenger at the tail end of last season was telling. While Wenger received the equivalent of a ruffle of the hair and a 'Bless 'em, they play nice football', Benitez was the subject of a cynical and co-ordinated attack from Ferguson and Sam Allardyce, designed to destabilise their season.


Much has been made (on these pages and others) of the 'facts rant', and while it's clear that Ferguson got under Benitez's skin, it's difficult to prove either way that it had a significant impact on Liverpool's season. Sure, they went on a poor run shortly after, but if Benitez had truly been psychologically battered and it had sabotaged Liverpool's season, how do you explain the 4-1 win at Old Trafford?


The improvement in Liverpool's league position since 2004 has been gradual, but last season they were genuine, serious and sustained title contenders for the first time since they last won the thing in 1990. With the right signings, it could be even closer next time.



Surviving the power struggle
18 months ago it looked like Benitez's time at Anfield was done. Disagreements with the American owners and Rick Parry over control (it always is) meant that he was being pushed out, with Tom Hicks and George Gillett even lining up Jurgen Klinsmann to replace him.


How much should be made of the apparent power struggle between Parry and Benitez is unclear, and who actually bought Robbie Keane, but if there really was a row, there's only one winner.


The extent of his victory is perfectly illustrated by the long negotiations over his new contract last season. He rejected every version of the deal that didn't please him, safe in the knowledge that he could ask for a monkey butler and strippers and the club would have to acquiesce, such was and is his power. He now has control over Liverpool's transfer policy, and is shaping the club into his own image.



THE BAD


Blind spots
Strange how some managers have blind spots in certain positions. With Ferguson for a long time it was goalkeepers, for Arsene Wenger centre-backs, but for Benitez it seems to be full-backs. Josemi, Jan Kronkamp, Antonio Barragan, Philip Degen, Andrea Dossena, Alvaro Arbeloa and Fabio Aurelio have been purchased, with arguably only the latter two being successes. And now it looks like he is about to pay a huge fee for the good, but not great, Glen Johnson.



The '7/10' obsession
The fundamental element of Benitez's managerial philosophy is control. He's obsessed with it. One imagines the sort of games that we punters enjoy (the break-neck seven-goalers, the games we remember) are the ones that Benitez hates, because there's no control. They're unpredictable. Anything could happen.


This might explain his early fascination with steady, predictable players that would play quite well and run around a lot every week, but rarely created anything spectacular. It's why he persisted with Dirk Kuyt and eventually found a place for him, as well as Momo Sissoko, Andrei Voronin, Alvaro Arbeloa, Bolo Zenden, Albert Riera, even Craig Bellamy and to an extent Yossi Benayoun.


With the signing of Torres one suspected he finally realised that a mixture of flair and graft is the way to go, which is why their reluctance to chase a player like David Silva is so frustrating.



Rotation
In his early days, you suspected that Benitez made changes to his side almost out of spite, being deliberately obtuse. He famously didn't keep the same side for 99 consecutive games (even that he made no changes for that 100th match suggests stubbornness), and such changes were as much about him not knowing his best side as keeping things fresh. Now, most people could probably name his first-choice eleven, but back then you might as well have picked names from a hat. It's difficult to work out whether the recent success is simply down to keeping a settled side, or the settled side is simply because he has better players now, and can thus more readily trust them.



Questionable transfer record
For every Torres there's a Voronin, for every a Skrtel a Kronkamp, for every Alonso a Nunez. In five years Benitez has signed 45 players, a massive number that smacks of at best trial and error, at worst guessing. Obviously he was unsure in his early days about which players would work in England, but even last summer there were some stinkers.


Philip Degen has yet to make a league appearance (although much of that was down to injury), Andrea Dossena cost ฃ7million, and then there was Robbie Keane. For a manager who is operating on a budget (as he never fails to remind us) much lower than his immediate rivals, he must minimise these sort of judgement errors.



Over-analysis
After Liverpool beat Real Madrid last summer, one of the Spanish papers wrote that you should never play chess with a grandmaster. It's true, and it might be one of the reasons that Liverpool had such a good record in 'big' games last season, while they dropped points against the lesser lights of the Premier League.


Clever thinking and effective tactics are required against Manchester United and Chelsea, but perhaps less so against Stoke and Hull. One suspects against those from the nether regions of the Premier League, Alex Ferguson offers little by way of tactical thinking - he simply says 'You're better than them, go and win it'. Benitez rarely lets his players loose, or goes for all-out attack in the same way that Jose Mourinho used to at Chelsea. If they were losing 1-0 after an hour, Mourinho would chuck on two more strikers and play four up front. Benitez tends to stick with the plan.


He has a tendency to over-think, to try and work out how to beat every team, when he could merely trust that his troops are better than the opposition, which they frequently are. Sometimes football really is that simple, and it might be a lesson that Benitez would do well to learn.

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8750_5387540,00.html

[Sabre]

I agree all the good and I'd add more.

I agree part of the bad, especifically the section the writer calls "blind spots", and part of his transfer records.

I never understood the over-analysis point. Knowing information about your opposition is never a bad idea, knowing their main threats and movements is good. You never analyse too much. The point of the analisis is to get info and provide it to your players. That doesn't mean you have to tell your players not to go and attack them. This season we have approached a more attacking football without being reckless and that gave us good results  (although it also exposed our back four sometimes).

And this season we have seen some good teams destroyed or spanked by Liverpool, we have seen the opposition being afraid of us. If we haven't done so before it's perhaps because we were more cautious yes, but it's because aswell because in the second year of Rafa's reign we didn't have such a strong starting eleven as now.

That is, we're more attacking, and more frightening, because we have Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Reina and good players like Aurelio and Riera. In the second year of Rafa we hadn't Mascherano, we had Mark Gonzalezs or Zendens, we had Sissoko instead of Mascherano, we had Morientes instead of Torres. We were weaker. Now we have all that and a Gerrard and a Torres that keep improving, and a more seasoned Alonso. We are frightening and attacking because we can do it.

To reach this point we have progressed. Whether this progress could have been faster than a 5 year plan is another debate and we have already discussed that.

[maguskwt]

So... where's the bit about Benitez signing Clint Eastwood? I mean I know when he signed Mascherano and Kuyt...

[heimdall]

I think you can certainly over analyse a situation Sabre, that is as true in life as it is football and is definitely Something Rafa has a tendency to do. Against the smaller teams it should be more about trusting the abilities of the players instead of giving each one a specific tightly focused role.

[Sabre]

I think you can certainly over analyse a situation Sabre, that is as true in life as it is football and is definitely Something Rafa has a tendency to do. Against the smaller teams it should be more about trusting the abilities of the players instead of giving each one a specific tightly focused role.

But do you think that in the moment that you give the last pass, in the moment that you cross, in the moment you receive a ball inside the box you have Rafa or whatever manager in your head?

No, you haven't. Shankly said it all with his famous quote about putting it against the next and then discuss the options later. That moments are not of the manager but of the player. Certainly Kuyt won't have a marvelous cross with inner curl if Rafa tells him to relax and forget about the analysis. Nor will make Babel's decissions any better. That moments of last pass, cross, and inside the box stuff are a matter of the players. We've dominated to dead some games in which we failed in those last passes (or controls that should have been done were not done).

Often the approach to the game we did was good but the outcome of those last passes and some performances weren't good enough to give us the three points.

A few times some mistakes of the approach to the game have been fixed by Gerrard's or Torres sheer quality. But I'd say that our problem when we drew wasn't a bad approach to the game, but a bad execution in the last metres of the pitch. No wonder we suffered when we didn't have Torres and Gerrard available, those players are the ones who make good approachs to the game brilliant.

[bigmick]

I think there's nothing wrong with analysis, provided you don't fall into the trap of weakening yourself, of being silly to counter a threat which doesn't need worrying about. This for me is where we've gone wrong far too often in the last. We've had the spectacle of Martin Skyrtel playing at right back because the wonder kid Stewart Downing plays down the left for Middlesboro, we've seen Torres dropped against Birmingham at Home supposedly according to Rafa because they defend too deep.

When we're playing half of the teams in the Premiership either Home or Away, our primary focus should be all about how we are are going to win convincingly. You do that by kicking their erse from the first minute. If it is 0-0 after 15 minutes, you want them thinking "feck me we'll never hold out here". What you don't do in England is go in with a "wait and see" attitude, lets sussout if they're going to employ a diamond or a Chrsitmas tree before we commit ourselves, "sammy if I'm not mistaken Kevin Davis is running the right hand channel much more today, we must work on a method to counter that when we play them". Well no we mustn't. Why? Because he's sh!t and it makes no difference where he runs. We must work on not giving too many set-pieces away because that's the only area where he's dangerous.

What we really must work on is getting Gerrard and Torres on the ball in the final third. If we do that quite a lot, we'll win quite a lot. Paralysis by analysis is plenty possible in football.

[bigmick]

We should copy the Mancs. When they're ona  roll, they walk on the pitch like they fully espect to win, they go for it from minute one and if they possibly can they get 2 or 3 nil up before the hour mark. their very approach screams of arrogance, they effectively say to the opposition we don't give a feck what you do to be honest, because we'll score one more than you whatever happens. Even if they go a goal behind they carry on with the same single minded attitiude.

Changing your formation, changing players positions to "counter' the opposition sends out the wrong signal. And it rarely works as well which is worth considering.

[Scottbot]

Rafa Benitez arrived at Anfield five years ago this week, and in that time plenty has occured. So what's gone well, and what badly? Nick Miller looks at the good and bad of Rafa's half decade...



THE GOOD


Signing Fernando Torres, Xabi Alonso and Pepe Reina
Quite good players, these three. Would any of them be in the Premier League if it wasn't for Benitez? Real Madrid were Alonso's other main suitor in 2004 (still are), Torres might still be at Atletico had Liverpool not come up with the cash, while Reina would most likely have moved back to Barcelona. In these three - along with Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher - Benitez has created a spine around which Liverpool's success is based, and if he does something daft (like selling Alonso) this summer, their continued title challenge will almost certainly falter.



Keeping - then getting the best from - Steven Gerrard
When Benitez arrived, two of Liverpool's best players were about to jump ship. While Michael Owen left, Gerrard was persuaded to stay (just a couple of weeks after Benitez's appointment too) despite offers of riches and instant success from Chelsea. It happened again the following summer, and while Gerrard claimed it was an emotional decision, Benitez would no doubt have been a major factor.


Keeping him was only a half-success though. After a couple of years shoving him out to the right and occasionally the left of midfield, Benitez realised that his true potential could only be brought out in his current 'free' role. While it might be a stretch to say Benitez alone has converted him from midfielder to support striker, he must be praised for allowing Gerrard to roam free.



Istanbul
The story goes that, as the entire Liverpool side and staff were cavorting around the Ataturk Stadium pitch, Benitez took Jamie Carragher aside and offered some constructive criticism about his positioning during the game.


It's this sort of cold attention to detail that was the centre of Liverpool's comeback. Amid the chaos of half-time, and after setting out a formation that included 12 players, Benitez had the nous and awareness to realise that he had to introduce Dietmar Hamman in order to protect his ravaged defence and midfield. Without this Liverpool probably wouldn't have scored those three goals in six minutes, and certainly wouldn't have prevented Milan from adding more.



Reigniting a rivalry
In this generation of football, there can be few things more flattering than Alex Ferguson recognising you are a threat. The difference between Ferguson's treatment of Benitez and Arsene Wenger at the tail end of last season was telling. While Wenger received the equivalent of a ruffle of the hair and a 'Bless 'em, they play nice football', Benitez was the subject of a cynical and co-ordinated attack from Ferguson and Sam Allardyce, designed to destabilise their season.


Much has been made (on these pages and others) of the 'facts rant', and while it's clear that Ferguson got under Benitez's skin, it's difficult to prove either way that it had a significant impact on Liverpool's season. Sure, they went on a poor run shortly after, but if Benitez had truly been psychologically battered and it had sabotaged Liverpool's season, how do you explain the 4-1 win at Old Trafford?


The improvement in Liverpool's league position since 2004 has been gradual, but last season they were genuine, serious and sustained title contenders for the first time since they last won the thing in 1990. With the right signings, it could be even closer next time.



Surviving the power struggle
18 months ago it looked like Benitez's time at Anfield was done. Disagreements with the American owners and Rick Parry over control (it always is) meant that he was being pushed out, with Tom Hicks and George Gillett even lining up Jurgen Klinsmann to replace him.


How much should be made of the apparent power struggle between Parry and Benitez is unclear, and who actually bought Robbie Keane, but if there really was a row, there's only one winner.


The extent of his victory is perfectly illustrated by the long negotiations over his new contract last season. He rejected every version of the deal that didn't please him, safe in the knowledge that he could ask for a monkey butler and strippers and the club would have to acquiesce, such was and is his power. He now has control over Liverpool's transfer policy, and is shaping the club into his own image.



THE BAD


Blind spots
Strange how some managers have blind spots in certain positions. With Ferguson for a long time it was goalkeepers, for Arsene Wenger centre-backs, but for Benitez it seems to be full-backs. Josemi, Jan Kronkamp, Antonio Barragan, Philip Degen, Andrea Dossena, Alvaro Arbeloa and Fabio Aurelio have been purchased, with arguably only the latter two being successes. And now it looks like he is about to pay a huge fee for the good, but not great, Glen Johnson.



The '7/10' obsession
The fundamental element of Benitez's managerial philosophy is control. He's obsessed with it. One imagines the sort of games that we punters enjoy (the break-neck seven-goalers, the games we remember) are the ones that Benitez hates, because there's no control. They're unpredictable. Anything could happen.


This might explain his early fascination with steady, predictable players that would play quite well and run around a lot every week, but rarely created anything spectacular. It's why he persisted with Dirk Kuyt and eventually found a place for him, as well as Momo Sissoko, Andrei Voronin, Alvaro Arbeloa, Bolo Zenden, Albert Riera, even Craig Bellamy and to an extent Yossi Benayoun.


With the signing of Torres one suspected he finally realised that a mixture of flair and graft is the way to go, which is why their reluctance to chase a player like David Silva is so frustrating.



Rotation
In his early days, you suspected that Benitez made changes to his side almost out of spite, being deliberately obtuse. He famously didn't keep the same side for 99 consecutive games (even that he made no changes for that 100th match suggests stubbornness), and such changes were as much about him not knowing his best side as keeping things fresh. Now, most people could probably name his first-choice eleven, but back then you might as well have picked names from a hat. It's difficult to work out whether the recent success is simply down to keeping a settled side, or the settled side is simply because he has better players now, and can thus more readily trust them.



Questionable transfer record
For every Torres there's a Voronin, for every a Skrtel a Kronkamp, for every Alonso a Nunez. In five years Benitez has signed 45 players, a massive number that smacks of at best trial and error, at worst guessing. Obviously he was unsure in his early days about which players would work in England, but even last summer there were some stinkers.


Philip Degen has yet to make a league appearance (although much of that was down to injury), Andrea Dossena cost ฃ7million, and then there was Robbie Keane. For a manager who is operating on a budget (as he never fails to remind us) much lower than his immediate rivals, he must minimise these sort of judgement errors.



Over-analysis
After Liverpool beat Real Madrid last summer, one of the Spanish papers wrote that you should never play chess with a grandmaster. It's true, and it might be one of the reasons that Liverpool had such a good record in 'big' games last season, while they dropped points against the lesser lights of the Premier League.


Clever thinking and effective tactics are required against Manchester United and Chelsea, but perhaps less so against Stoke and Hull. One suspects against those from the nether regions of the Premier League, Alex Ferguson offers little by way of tactical thinking - he simply says 'You're better than them, go and win it'. Benitez rarely lets his players loose, or goes for all-out attack in the same way that Jose Mourinho used to at Chelsea. If they were losing 1-0 after an hour, Mourinho would chuck on two more strikers and play four up front. Benitez tends to stick with the plan.


He has a tendency to over-think, to try and work out how to beat every team, when he could merely trust that his troops are better than the opposition, which they frequently are. Sometimes football really is that simple, and it might be a lesson that Benitez would do well to learn.

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8750_5387540,00.html

That's a good little read that, makes a lot of good points on both sides, hard to disagree with it.

[bigmick]

The fella's point about rotation is worth a look. we didn't keep the same team for 99 consecutive matches feck me, and people wonder why some fans got obsessed with rotation. If that's not absolutely fecking ridiculous, I don't know what is 

[Migueldadon]

Liverpool will never win the prem with Benitez as their manager, and thats a fact.

[allred]

Liverpool will never win the prem with Benitez as their manager, and thats a fact.

Your totally right. Lets get rid of rafa and bring in alan curbishley.

[Toffeehater]

Good post , thanks for posting it up mick

[Toffeehater]

Liverpool will never win the prem with Benitez as their manager, and thats a fact.

Fergie took 7 seasons to win the prem , rafa is on his 6th and is getting closer , next season with ronaldo gone it will be our best chance if we can retain all our players and add a maybe 2 more quality signings

[stmichael]

Liverpool will never win the prem with Benitez as their manager, and thats a fact.

I assume you're a WUM?

I dont think we need to spend Abramovich kind of money on Liverpool and personally if were to just add a quality left sided player i think we have enough to win the league.
Infact i will go one further and say if we had a lucky season with injuries and all the main players remained fit i think we would win the leauge without any further spending.

Our starting eleven is the best in the Premier League but its the quality as soon as you go beyond the first eleven where we are let down.

[Dmasta]

Liverpool will never win the prem with Benitez as their manager, and thats a fact.

I assume you're a WUM?

I dont think we need to spend Abramovich kind of money on Liverpool and personally if were to just add a quality left sided player i think we have enough to win the league.
Infact i will go one further and say if we had a lucky season with injuries and all the main players remained fit i think we would win the leauge without any further spending.

Our starting eleven is the best in the Premier League but its the quality as soon as you go beyond the first eleven where we are let down.