James lawton in independent - Deserves its own thread re carragher

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 112-1077774096 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:09 pm

James Lawton: Carragher's refusal to return based on bitter experience of England star system

In a perfect world the chances are Jamie Carragher would go back, at least for a few matches, on his decision to end his England career. He would, you have to believe, be able to see the need, not so much for himself, and certainly not for some ego-massaging accumulation of caps, but for the country whose shirt he wore 34 times, and with never less than rampaging commitment.

Unfortunately, the world of England's international football is not only less than perfect, it is too often less than merely competent. It operates a star system that would have given Hollywood an even worse name than it has; it makes one rule for the glory boys, who know who they are even more than we do, and one for the others, the foot soldiers, the guys who do what they are asked, when they are asked, and then slip away into the margins.

Jamie Carragher, who with injuries to most of his rivals has rarely been needed so urgently by his country, has never been one of the glory boys. He never tried to doctor the adenoidal ferocity of his Bootle accent, never slaved to get himself in the picture, except when a sharp-eyed cameraman picked up, as he did, on a moment of acute danger in the defensive lines of Liverpool or England.

Like a few who spring to mind across the generations, starting with Nobby Stiles through the likes of Tommy Smith and Ian Callaghan, Norman Hunter, Peter Beardsley, Bryan Robson, and Paul Scholes, the player whose earlier departure from the international scene still leaves a gaping hole in England's midfield, Carragher has always been a footballer's footballer. The celebrity culture might have been proceeding on another planet.

When, smarting under the final cut in the spring, his exclusion from the European qualifier against Estonia to make way for both Ledley King and Wes Brown, he said that it was time to concentrate on club football, he was accused, from the shot and shell of a broadcasting booth, of being a "bottler", a pro not willing to fight for his place. Carragher, arguably the most implacable pure defender of his generation, eventually stifled his rage and said, "I've committed 12 years of my career to England, but I've been thinking now is the time to concentrate 100 per cent on Liverpool.

"I'm 29 now and I have to accept if I'm not a regular starter at this stage of my England career, I don't think I'll ever be. It's going to be difficult for me to be seen as anything more than a squad player, and that's not what I'm interested in now."

Comparisons may be invidious but at least one is unavoidable. It is with the decision-making of Carragher's former England captain David Beckham, who, while electing to take the huge and easy money of the third-rate American Major League Soccer, insists that he cannot bear to surrender his place in the England team – at least until he acquires 100 caps which would draw him, outlandishly some rigorous critics would say, into the company of titans like Bobby Moore and Sir Bobby Charlton.

In response, the England coach Steve McClaren, who is now required to go on bended knee to a Carragher he had earlier convinced was one of the team's most disposable assets, suggests he is willing to fly to America in order monitor Beckham's "progress" over there.

The implication cannot be missed. Beckham, even after he handed back the England captaincy unbidden in the wake of another World Cup disaster, is still able to snap his fingers and get the appropriate response from the England hierarchy – a situation that was enshrined almost from the moment Sven Goran Eriksson took office.

It has never been remotely like that for England soldiers like Scholes and Carragher. Scholes had to fit in with the requirements of team-mates like Beckham, Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard whatever the evidence he provided that, in the matter of shaping a game, and understanding the subtleties of playmaking, he operated in a different and distinctly superior street.

Part of Carragher's frustration, no doubt, is that he knows that, in purely technical terms, he is roughly twice as reliable as the first name consistently down in England's defensive list, Rio Ferdinand. When Ferdinand's partner, John Terry, was injured, Carragher, who has been asked to play at full-back, central defence and as a holding midfielder, assumed that he would walk into the team in his best position. He should have known better. Following one game he was dropped after starting as a holding midfielder – an astonishing abberation – before filling in for the injured Gary Neville at right-back. Falling behind King and Jonathan Woodgate was, he believed, the point of no return.

It was an entirely rational decision, one made without anything like the same kind of provocation and at around the same age, by Alan Shearer, who is of course widely revered as one of the ultimate professionals.

This is a status Carragher has also won for himself, at least in the mind of a defender who happens to be one of only nine living Englishmen who know what it takes to win a World Cup. George Cohen says of the Liverpool man: "For so long, Carragher has for me been the outstanding England defender.

"OK, he's not flashy on the ball, anything but in fact, but as a defender he has brilliant understanding of what he has to do. He reads situations so well, his timing is great and if you are under the cosh you couldn't get anyone more reliable.

"Sometimes I look at big-name players like Rio Ferdinand and Ashley Cole and I ask my wife, on the off chance that she is listening, 'Has anyone ever taught these lads to defend, really defend?' But then I never ask that question of Jamie Carragher. Some things you can't teach a defender. It is pure instinct and Carragher has that."

But does he have forbearance? Does he have the grace to remember the pride he felt when he first played for England, when he still believed that, if you did your stuff, you got your reward? The hunch here was that he does, though that was before the word coming out of Merseyside last night was not so encouraging. Patriots will no doubt say that answering his country's call is the least to be expected from a hugely rewarded footballer, but it is maybe not quite as simple as that. Certainly Steve McClaren should be the last man to pretend that it is.



:nod
112-1077774096
 

Postby Sean » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:57 pm

Hopefully Carra will stick to his guns on this one.
Every Single Ball
User avatar
Sean
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:27 am
Location: Cork, Ireland

Postby Sabre » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:42 pm

This article is interesting and somehow confirms the vague idea I had about english football. From a neutral view and looking at the football abilities it is quite difficult to understand why a midfielder like Lampard seems to be more protected than midfielders that IMO are much better than him, like Scholes or Gerrard.

Pretty much the same thing could be said about Gerrard. Mclaren monitoring Beckham in USA is something that it's difficult to understand aswell, the departure of a player to that league, would mean the automatic disappearance of the national squad in my country. But well, every country has it's mistakes when it comes to football, in my country the bias is the club you play for. If you play for Real Madrid, Liverpool or Barcelona, chances are that you will have 10 times more possibilities of being selected. That's the general rule, senile coachs like Aragones can pick men of Atletico or Valencia just because he likes the teams or has confidence in the player -- LG might still have a chance that normally would have lost leaving Liverpool.

I understand very well Carra's decission
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Postby metalhead » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:45 pm

Very good read there peewee, and well put!
ImageImageImage
User avatar
metalhead
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 17474
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:15 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Postby maguskwt » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:46 pm

Sabre wrote:This article is interesting and somehow confirms the vague idea I had about english football. From a neutral view and looking at the football abilities it is quite difficult to understand why a midfielder like Lampard seems to be more protected than midfielders that IMO are much better than him, like Scholes or Gerrard.

Pretty much the same thing could be said about Gerrard. Mclaren monitoring Beckham in USA is something that it's difficult to understand aswell, the departure of a player to that league, would mean the automatic disappearance of the national squad in my country. But well, every country has it's mistakes when it comes to football, in my country the bias is the club you play for. If you play for Real Madrid, Liverpool or Barcelona, chances are that you will have 10 times more possibilities of being selected. That's the general rule, senile coachs like Aragones can pick men of Atletico or Valencia just because he likes the teams or has confidence in the player -- LG might still have a chance that normally would have lost leaving Liverpool.

I understand very well Carra's decission

yes the protection of lampard puzzles me too...he is someone who looks like a very good player in his comfort zone (chelsea) and in england he loses his confidence and is basically :censored:... and it gets even more fustrating when just because lampard is so incompetent at defending, Gerrard had to do all he dirty work for him... wtf...

and now mclaren is saying rooney can lead england to euro... he sounds very pathetic... oooohhhh... save my campaign star player...
Image
maguskwt
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 8232
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:39 pm

Postby bigmick » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:29 pm

It's a great read that Peewee and speaking as somebody who has to put up with at best uninformed and terrible reflections on Football from people who clearly are more knowledgeable about other sports, and at worst no information at all I really appreciate quality articles such as this.

I would say also that I rate Rio Ferdinand slightly higher than the author of this particular article. He is a top player, but like most top players it is only so if he is allowed to perform his favourite role. It has always seemed to me a little strange that the England hierarchy go on (rightly) about Ferdinands ability on the ball, his addition to the team as an attacking unit and his undoubted class in build up play and then implore him not to cross the half-way line. In the role he is asked to play for England, that of a pure, out and out defender Carragher would be the much better bet. Even Terry who curiously seems unable to translate his imperious Chelsea form into performances on the national stage wouldn't be a better bet than Carragher if you are simply looking for an out and out defender and not too worried about a centre-half getting on the end of one of Beckhams "pinpoint" crosses.

I actually hope Carra plays if they need him and has a stormer. Then he can put two fingers up and wander off into the sunset with the cheers ringing in his ears, which after all is what he deserves as a footballer.
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby red37 » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:04 am

speaking as somebody who has to put up with at best uninformed and terrible reflections on Football from people who clearly are more knowledgeable about other sports, and at worst no information at all I really appreciate quality articles such as this.


Things really that bad?
Image



TITANS of HOPE
User avatar
red37
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:00 pm

Postby Sabre » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:14 am

I would say also that I rate Rio Ferdinand slightly higher than the author of this particular article. He is a top player, but like most top players it is only so if he is allowed to perform his favorite role. It has always seemed to me a little strange that the England hierarchy go on (rightly) about Ferdinands ability on the ball, his addition to the team as an attacking unit and his undoubted class in build up play and then implore him not to cross the half-way line. In the role he is asked to play for England, that of a pure, out and out defender Carragher would be the much better bet. Even Terry who curiously seems unable to translate his imperious Chelsea form into performances on the national stage wouldn't be a better bet than Carragher if you are simply looking for an out and out defender and not too worried about a centre-half getting on the end of one of Beckhams "pinpoint" crosses.


From an outer perspective I don't argue that Ferdinand has quality. But I've read many times that he lacks concentration. In ANY team, I think it's a bad thing that a player thinks that he has his spot secured. It seems though, that no matter what's the form of some players, they have their place and position safe. If after a disappointing mistake, Ferdinand was not picked but Carra, they'd achieve two things, motivating Carra to keep going to the squad, and motivate Ferdinand to give his best in concentration, and all that without losing quality in defence --Carra has nothing to prove, he could be a starting eleven defender in any top national squad.

As I say I don't follow all the England games but from outside there doesn't seem to be such a competition. Would you (lot) agree?
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Postby Forever_Red » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:17 am

I actually hope Carra plays if they need him and has a stormer. Then he can put two fingers up and wander off into the sunset with the cheers ringing in his ears, which after all is what he deserves as a footballer.


That would be absolutely fantastic

Carra certainly deserves that
Reclaim The Kop

YNWA
User avatar
Forever_Red
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:03 am
Location: Newcastle

Postby 112-1077774096 » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:20 am

sabre sadly there is a certain click that will be picked no matter what, our selection is not based on who is playing well at the time, its selected on the big names and trying to shoehorn them all into the team at the same time, why do you think fat frank is still selected every game
112-1077774096
 

Postby shevace » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:46 am

Ok i'd posted a couple of comments relevent to my club (villa) but this grabbed my attention - i hope you don't mind someone with no affiliation to liverpool posting on this point.

I do think jamie has spat the dummy out to an extent (he's not old enough to be retiring for club commitments) BUT i totally understand where his frustration has come from - it's ridiculous that King and Brown got a call ahead of him but what would you expect from our national coach?

However, i would say to all you defending him - if crouch doesn't play as much as he'd like this season and then refuses to play demanding a transfer would you say "fair enough, he's just looking out for himself"?  i think Terry and Ferdinand (in fact if fit Terry and Woodgate) should be England's defence, but Carragher (spelt wrong?) should be ahead of King and Brown - BUT at is age, if your country comes asking (begging) you shouldn't refuse.

As i say i hope you don't think i'm being arsey as a non liverpool fan - just wanted to voice my opinion on a subject i care about.
shevace
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:58 am
Location: solihull

Postby username » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:23 am

Woodgate over carra? your having a laugh
"Fernando Towers won't triumph in the premiership.
And you can quote me on that. " - Sabre 2007
Sorry Sabre, but when i see stuff like this i have to quote it :D
User avatar
username
 
Posts: 625
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:54 pm
Location: England

Postby 112-1077774096 » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:37 am

you are welcome to have an opinion mate, but i dont quite see how your comments about crouch can be linked to carra, one you are talking about club football and the other international football.

if any player wants to leave because he isnt being played then in my opinion that shows desire and should be applauded that the guy wants to earn his money rather than warm the bench, or in diaos case just collect his salary.

in carraghers case i can understand it, what does the guy have to do to get some recognition at international level, he has given everything he can for england, remember he was the most capped under 21, he went to lillshall he has always been available, and lets also not forget that when it came to penalties against portugal all these superstars that were keeping him out of the team were cowering in the center circle while carragher showed how big his testicles are (and then gets called a bottler my some no mark reporter).

i know we possibly have a different mentality mate, but scousers always put club before country, always, i wouldnt care if i never saw england play again to be honest, i am english but the england team means nothing to me while the current state of affairs is going on, what does lampard have to do to get dropped, what does rio have to do to get dropped etc, the team is full of 'yes' men, some of these players are not the best players for their position, the team should be selected on current form and not what has happened in the past and thats the big problem here.

i dont remember all this stick when scholes retired or shearer retired, carragher does what he thinks is best for himself and his club and the reaction has been as though he has committed some atrocity, as though he is letting his country down, well in my opinion the national team has let carragher down, trying to be unbiased here but carragher is a rock, he is quality central defender, he is not a charlie big bollox, he is a genuine guy, a pro who should be ahead of some of the garbage that is picked before him. is he better than terry and rio, he is better than rio at defending, he is better than terry at defending, going forward he is not as good but england don't play that way

i hope he keeps sticking two fingers up, its like a girl who doesn't want to know you until she is skint and wants a night out or wants you to buy her something, suddenly she comes knocking

too late came the cry, maclaren has dug his hole now let him sort it out, but do it without the people you have sh1t on in the past
112-1077774096
 

Postby Ydde » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:45 am

Good post Peewee, I agree with the gist of it.

Also, I remembered when Shearer and Scholes retired, it significantly improved their performances on the field with their respective clubs. This can only be good for LFC.
User avatar
Ydde
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:59 pm

Postby Lando_Griffin » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:10 am

I don't see how anyone can call JC a bottler - as the lad said - 12 years he's dedicated to this sh*thole country, and he's being made a mockery of by a peado and a coke-snorting, hair-lipped c*nt.

Terry and Ferdinand might score more goals - they might be able to do more kick-ups and f*cking step-overs than Carragher, but what they cannot do is defend like lions when everyone else around them is losing their head.

Hair-lip wouldn't know a tackle if it gave him a bumming, and Terry is too bothered about little girls to care what happens on a football field.

Only in this c*nting country would a nonce and a fricking smackhead take precidence over the most reliable out-and-out defender.

Only in this c*nting country would a punk like Wes Brown keep out a f*cking Champions' League winning CB who has consistently and spectacularly castrated the best strikers in World football for the past few years.

No current English CB has experienced the things Jamie has, let alone come out as the rock upon which his team's victories have been based. Think back to the Champions' League final - those last-gasp tackles and interceptions when cramp was raging through his legs - do any of you think that Snort or Kiddie-fiddler would have done the same? No - they'd have been too busy trying to score from corners, the f*cking girls.

THEN, you have to take into consideration the fact that Jamie was travelling to every b*stard international just to sit on the bench or have 3 minutes in injury time, despite having a wife and young family. I don't think so, Stevie boy - hows about you get a f*cking grip and stop pandering to the poofs in your squad? The entire backline is nothing but a bunch of fairies.
Suck your dogs b*llocks, McLaren, you f*cking imbecile.


Jamie Carragher - Mans man, and the best defender this country has got. :nod
Last edited by Lando_Griffin on Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Image

Rafa Benitez - An unfinished Legend.
User avatar
Lando_Griffin
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 10633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:19 pm

Next

Return to Liverpool FC - General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 89 guests