Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

Dont be pedantic mate, it suits you too much.

I dont think we are playing good football right now, in fact I dont care too much either as its about results and NOT performances.

Arsenal two years ago played mesmeric football, stuffing some teams and passing the ball about beautifully. The record books still read:

Champions League Winners : BARCELONA

There is nothing mentioned for finishing second but playing good football.

[112-1077774096]

Dont be pedantic mate, it suits you too much.

[redtrader74]

If you have a formula one race, you don't pull out and wave the white flag if your driver is struggling but still in with a shout.

[puroresu]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

I dont think we have ever really played great stuff under Rafa.  This season I had hope as I thought with the money spent and players like Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayouin coming in was a sign that that the manager was going to change things this season.  I did think he would be more offensive and release the chains from the side but from what I have seen nothing has really changed.

[agoodmentality]

What the f()ck has happened, i've defended rafa from the day he arrived but now i'm starting to get right off.   
Let's face it, we're years behind Arsenal and ManU in the style of play,  i have only just realised that we play poor unattractive football,(which got results).
I'm fed up of this "two banks of four" (in every game)
Ryan Babel(the new T.Henry) being played 10 yards inside his own half for most of the game.
Even when we have 3 up front the two wide men are wing-backs.
No matter what players you buy, the manager dictates how they play, (Ronaldhino would look playing on the left of our midfield)
It seems we worry too much about the opposition, $hithouse tactics.
Paco has gone,,???/ i used to think the players were playing FOR him.

I was in istanbul, i said that night he can't get higher than this,, was i right???

[Big Niall]

I don't know why people think that playing attractive football is a luxury, Manure and ARsenal have always been attractive and have won every league since 1996 (except Chelsea's two).

just pass the ball and stop hitting long balls.Definately Rafa's tactics, players dont want the ball. Just hoof it.

[account deleted by request]

I am still not sure what it would take for people like Sabre or Leon to say "ok Rafa's had a go and can't take us any further, time to look elsewhere."

I have said if we don't make progress this season it may be time to re-assess , certainly I would hope questions would be asked. That was my answer btw.

Seriously what would it take Sabre and Leon?

Absolute BARE minimum would be the rest of the season.

How can you say he cant do it unless you give him at least a full season ?

Many people thought this was the season we would push on, (I thought we would get closer persoanlly) so until this season we CAN NOT win the league how can anyone pass judgement ?

I obviously failed miserably to get my question across so I will have another go.

Under what circumstances would you come to the conclusion that Rafa has taken us as far as he can. Whether it would be the end of this season or next season or even the season after if you are so patient. Whatever. Obviously different people have different expectations and tolerances. So, what would you consider reasonable grounds to think Rafa has taken us as far as he can Leon? I realise it is much easier to wait till the end of the season before defining success or failure, but have a go mate.

I have tried to explain mine. I want to see genuine progress this season. A narrowing of the points gap to the top spot would be an indication of progress. Some indication that Rafa can come to terms with the prem and make a genuine sustained challenge for the title. Even a league cup would probably ease the pain if our title challenge went t!ts up.(it did with Houllier)

I am not a Rafa out man as most know, but I don't think I am as firm in my convictions as you or Sabre that he can take us to the level. I am not asking you to pass judgement just to make an assessment. Which is really the reason I am asking you mate. What would it take?

[Leonmc0708]

I am still not sure what it would take for people like Sabre or Leon to say "ok Rafa's had a go and can't take us any further, time to look elsewhere."

I have said if we don't make progress this season it may be time to re-assess , certainly I would hope questions would be asked. That was my answer btw.

Seriously what would it take Sabre and Leon?

Absolute BARE minimum would be the rest of the season.

How can you say he cant do it unless you give him at least a full season ?

Many people thought this was the season we would push on, (I thought we would get closer persoanlly) so until this season we CAN NOT win the league how can anyone pass judgement ?

I obviously failed miserably to get my question across so I will have another go.

Under what circumstances would you come to the conclusion that Rafa has taken us as far as he can. Whether it would be the end of this season or next season or even the season after if you are so patient. Whatever. Obviously different people have different expectations and tolerances. So, what would you consider reasonable grounds to think Rafa has taken us as far as he can Leon? I realise it is much easier to wait till the end of the season before defining success or failure, but have a go mate.

I have tried to explain mine. I want to see genuine progress this season. A narrowing of the points gap to the top spot would be an indication of progress. Some indication that Rafa can come to terms with the prem and make a genuine sustained challenge for the title. Even a league cup would probably ease the pain if our title challenge went t!ts up.(it did with Houllier)

I am not a Rafa out man as most know, but I don't think I am as firm in my convictions as you or Sabre that he can take us to the level. I am not asking you to pass judgement just to make an assessment. Which is really the reason I am asking you mate. What would it take?

9 points this season.

3 points next season.

Thats what I want from the man.

If we are more than 9 shy this season, I will say he is on his last legs for next season, he has got to win it.

If we are within 9 points this season, and next season we miss out by one or two points or are one win away then I would suggest that he is doing it right.

[account deleted by request]

I am still not sure what it would take for people like Sabre or Leon to say "ok Rafa's had a go and can't take us any further, time to look elsewhere."

I have said if we don't make progress this season it may be time to re-assess , certainly I would hope questions would be asked. That was my answer btw.

Seriously what would it take Sabre and Leon?

Absolute BARE minimum would be the rest of the season.

How can you say he cant do it unless you give him at least a full season ?

Many people thought this was the season we would push on, (I thought we would get closer persoanlly) so until this season we CAN NOT win the league how can anyone pass judgement ?

I obviously failed miserably to get my question across so I will have another go.

Under what circumstances would you come to the conclusion that Rafa has taken us as far as he can. Whether it would be the end of this season or next season or even the season after if you are so patient. Whatever. Obviously different people have different expectations and tolerances. So, what would you consider reasonable grounds to think Rafa has taken us as far as he can Leon? I realise it is much easier to wait till the end of the season before defining success or failure, but have a go mate.

I have tried to explain mine. I want to see genuine progress this season. A narrowing of the points gap to the top spot would be an indication of progress. Some indication that Rafa can come to terms with the prem and make a genuine sustained challenge for the title. Even a league cup would probably ease the pain if our title challenge went t!ts up.(it did with Houllier)

I am not a Rafa out man as most know, but I don't think I am as firm in my convictions as you or Sabre that he can take us to the level. I am not asking you to pass judgement just to make an assessment. Which is really the reason I am asking you mate. What would it take?

9 points this season.

3 points next season.

Thats what I want from the man.

If we are more than 9 shy this season, I will say he is on his last legs for next season, he has got to win it.

If we are within 9 points this season, and next season we miss out by one or two points or are one win away then I would suggest that he is doing it right.

Thats fair enough Leon. Thanks mate

[maguskwt]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

I dont think we have ever really played great stuff under Rafa.  This season I had hope as I thought with the money spent and players like Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayouin coming in was a sign that that the manager was going to change things this season.  I did think he would be more offensive and release the chains from the side but from what I have seen nothing has really changed.

ppl have amnesia...

We played good football at Camp Nou last season... we played good football against AC Milan in the CL final... we played good football against arsenal where we thrashed them 4-1 last season... we played good football against man u at anfield where we totally dominated them only to lose on an unfortunate last minute goal... we played good football against chelsea at home last season where we thrashed them 2-0...

we played good football against, villa, chelsea, sunderland and derby this season...

I agree that now we're not playing good football... and all of a sudden it seems as if we never play good football under benitez...

the negativity on this forum is unbelieveable sometimes...

or perhaps it is the definition of 'good football'... if you're talking about the kind of football that arsenal and man u play, I hate to disappoint you but we're not gonna play that kind of football... it is not possible to play that kind of  football by any other club simply because the managers are different... if you want us to play like arsenal, ask wenger to quit at highbury and join us, if you want us to play like the mancs, maybe ferguson can join us after he retires at old trafford. As for me I admire Benitez's type of football (when it's working of course)... or are you ppl too narrow minded to think that man u's and arsenal's are the only types of good football? I believe you are not...

the question should be why we're not playing good football right now... because I know we can under benitez...

and I'd like to refer to big mick's post as well... I'd like to say that it is not just about direction and it is more than that...when you say that if benitez keeps on insisting to his methods we should shake hands and say good bye... now what if the owners give rafa more money to strengthen the squad and rafa goes on to dominate the premiere league as well as europe for the next decade using his rotation policy... or what if we fire rafa and Real signs him and they go on winning the spanish league every single year and dominate europe as well...we will never know if we fire rafa at the end of this season for the former case but we'll definitely find out and realise our mistake and end up looking on in envy for the latter case won't we?

the questions for me are whether the rotation policy works in England as it works in Spain... and to what extent should rafa go to find this out before he has to change? This is the first season that rafa had some money to buy the players he like... even then there seems to be some restrictions as we didn't go all out in the market for wingers after we bought torres... what if next season we can add 2 more quality players and we go on to dominate the league as well as europe?

what if we dont' consider all these things and we fire rafa and who are we gonna appoint? Martin Jol? are we gonna wait 2-3 more years of rebuilding the team from scratch and still unsure if we can challenge for the title after that? there are just a handful of top top coaches in the world right now and
benitez is one of them...sacchi knows it... but while we're in a slump, we the fans have all of a sudden a superior knowledge of football and thinks otherwise...

for all of these reasons... I would give rafa 2 more years to prove his system works... surely if houllier deserved 7 years, the man who gave us the fifth european cup and the seventh FA cup in his first two seasons deserve 6 years... no?

[Leonmc0708]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

I dont think we have ever really played great stuff under Rafa.  This season I had hope as I thought with the money spent and players like Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayouin coming in was a sign that that the manager was going to change things this season.  I did think he would be more offensive and release the chains from the side but from what I have seen nothing has really changed.

ppl have amnesia...

We played good football at Camp Nou last season... we played good football against AC Milan in the CL final... we played good football against arsenal where we thrashed them 4-1 last season... we played good football against man u at anfield where we totally dominated them only to lose on an unfortunate last minute goal... we played good football against chelsea at home last season where we thrashed them 2-0...

we played good football against, villa, chelsea, sunderland and derby this season...

I agree that now we're not playing good football... and all of a sudden it seems as if we never play good football under benitez...

the negativity on this forum is unbelieveable sometimes...

or perhaps it is the definition of 'good football'... if you're talking about the kind of football that arsenal and man u play, I hate to disappoint you but we're not gonna play that kind of football... it is not possible to play that kind of  football by any other club simply because the managers are different... if you want us to play like arsenal, ask wenger to quit at highbury and join us, if you want us to play like the mancs, maybe ferguson can join us after he retires at old trafford. As for me I admire Benitez's type of football (when it's working of course)... or are you ppl too narrow minded to think that man u's and arsenal's are the only types of good football? I believe you are not...

the question should be why we're not playing good football right now... because I know we can under benitez...

and I'd like to refer to big mick's post as well... I'd like to say that it is not just about direction and it is more than that...when you say that if benitez keeps on insisting to his methods we should shake hands and say good bye... now what if the owners give rafa more money to strengthen the squad and rafa goes on to dominate the premiere league as well as europe for the next decade using his rotation policy... or what if we fire rafa and Real signs him and they go on winning the spanish league every single year and dominate europe as well...we will never know if we fire rafa at the end of this season for the former case but we'll definitely find out and realise our mistake and end up looking on in envy for the latter case won't we?

the questions for me are whether the rotation policy works in England as it works in Spain... and to what extent should rafa go to find this out before he has to change? This is the first season that rafa had some money to buy the players he like... even then there seems to be some restrictions as we didn't go all out in the market for wingers after we bought torres... what if next season we can add 2 more quality players and we go on to dominate the league as well as europe?

what if we dont' consider all these things and we fire rafa and who are we gonna appoint? Martin Jol? are we gonna wait 2-3 more years of rebuilding the team from scratch and still unsure if we can challenge for the title after that? there are just a handful of top top coaches in the world right now and
benitez is one of them...sacchi knows it... but while we're in a slump, we the fans have all of a sudden a superior knowledge of football and thinks otherwise...

for all of these reasons... I would give rafa 2 more years to prove his system works... surely if houllier deserved 7 years, the man who gave us the fifth european cup and the seventh FA cup in his first two seasons deserve 6 years... no?

Great points, well made.

[112-1077774096]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

I dont think we have ever really played great stuff under Rafa.  This season I had hope as I thought with the money spent and players like Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayouin coming in was a sign that that the manager was going to change things this season.  I did think he would be more offensive and release the chains from the side but from what I have seen nothing has really changed.

ppl have amnesia...

We played good football at Camp Nou last season... we played good football against AC Milan in the CL final... we played good football against arsenal where we thrashed them 4-1 last season... we played good football against man u at anfield where we totally dominated them only to lose on an unfortunate last minute goal... we played good football against chelsea at home last season where we thrashed them 2-0...

we played good football against, villa, chelsea, sunderland and derby this season...

I agree that now we're not playing good football... and all of a sudden it seems as if we never play good football under benitez...

the negativity on this forum is unbelieveable sometimes...

or perhaps it is the definition of 'good football'... if you're talking about the kind of football that arsenal and man u play, I hate to disappoint you but we're not gonna play that kind of football... it is not possible to play that kind of  football by any other club simply because the managers are different... if you want us to play like arsenal, ask wenger to quit at highbury and join us, if you want us to play like the mancs, maybe ferguson can join us after he retires at old trafford. As for me I admire Benitez's type of football (when it's working of course)... or are you ppl too narrow minded to think that man u's and arsenal's are the only types of good football? I believe you are not...

the question should be why we're not playing good football right now... because I know we can under benitez...

and I'd like to refer to big mick's post as well... I'd like to say that it is not just about direction and it is more than that...when you say that if benitez keeps on insisting to his methods we should shake hands and say good bye... now what if the owners give rafa more money to strengthen the squad and rafa goes on to dominate the premiere league as well as europe for the next decade using his rotation policy... or what if we fire rafa and Real signs him and they go on winning the spanish league every single year and dominate europe as well...we will never know if we fire rafa at the end of this season for the former case but we'll definitely find out and realise our mistake and end up looking on in envy for the latter case won't we?

the questions for me are whether the rotation policy works in England as it works in Spain... and to what extent should rafa go to find this out before he has to change? This is the first season that rafa had some money to buy the players he like... even then there seems to be some restrictions as we didn't go all out in the market for wingers after we bought torres... what if next season we can add 2 more quality players and we go on to dominate the league as well as europe?

what if we dont' consider all these things and we fire rafa and who are we gonna appoint? Martin Jol? are we gonna wait 2-3 more years of rebuilding the team from scratch and still unsure if we can challenge for the title after that? there are just a handful of top top coaches in the world right now and
benitez is one of them...sacchi knows it... but while we're in a slump, we the fans have all of a sudden a superior knowledge of football and thinks otherwise...

for all of these reasons... I would give rafa 2 more years to prove his system works... surely if houllier deserved 7 years, the man who gave us the fifth european cup and the seventh FA cup in his first two seasons deserve 6 years... no?

Great points, well made.

even everton manage a few good performances per season mate, the benchmark is doing it consistently, a couple of good performances followed by mediocrity does not win you the league

[Ola Mr Benitez]

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

I dont think we have ever really played great stuff under Rafa.  This season I had hope as I thought with the money spent and players like Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayouin coming in was a sign that that the manager was going to change things this season.  I did think he would be more offensive and release the chains from the side but from what I have seen nothing has really changed.

ppl have amnesia...

We played good football at Camp Nou last season... we played good football against AC Milan in the CL final... we played good football against arsenal where we thrashed them 4-1 last season... we played good football against man u at anfield where we totally dominated them only to lose on an unfortunate last minute goal... we played good football against chelsea at home last season where we thrashed them 2-0...

we played good football against, villa, chelsea, sunderland and derby this season...

I agree that now we're not playing good football... and all of a sudden it seems as if we never play good football under benitez...

the negativity on this forum is unbelieveable sometimes...

or perhaps it is the definition of 'good football'... if you're talking about the kind of football that arsenal and man u play, I hate to disappoint you but we're not gonna play that kind of football... it is not possible to play that kind of  football by any other club simply because the managers are different... if you want us to play like arsenal, ask wenger to quit at highbury and join us, if you want us to play like the mancs, maybe ferguson can join us after he retires at old trafford. As for me I admire Benitez's type of football (when it's working of course)... or are you ppl too narrow minded to think that man u's and arsenal's are the only types of good football? I believe you are not...

the question should be why we're not playing good football right now... because I know we can under benitez...

and I'd like to refer to big mick's post as well... I'd like to say that it is not just about direction and it is more than that...when you say that if benitez keeps on insisting to his methods we should shake hands and say good bye... now what if the owners give rafa more money to strengthen the squad and rafa goes on to dominate the premiere league as well as europe for the next decade using his rotation policy... or what if we fire rafa and Real signs him and they go on winning the spanish league every single year and dominate europe as well...we will never know if we fire rafa at the end of this season for the former case but we'll definitely find out and realise our mistake and end up looking on in envy for the latter case won't we?

the questions for me are whether the rotation policy works in England as it works in Spain... and to what extent should rafa go to find this out before he has to change? This is the first season that rafa had some money to buy the players he like... even then there seems to be some restrictions as we didn't go all out in the market for wingers after we bought torres... what if next season we can add 2 more quality players and we go on to dominate the league as well as europe?

what if we dont' consider all these things and we fire rafa and who are we gonna appoint? Martin Jol? are we gonna wait 2-3 more years of rebuilding the team from scratch and still unsure if we can challenge for the title after that? there are just a handful of top top coaches in the world right now and
benitez is one of them...sacchi knows it... but while we're in a slump, we the fans have all of a sudden a superior knowledge of football and thinks otherwise...

for all of these reasons... I would give rafa 2 more years to prove his system works... surely if houllier deserved 7 years, the man who gave us the fifth european cup and the seventh FA cup in his first two seasons deserve 6 years... no?

Great points, well made.

even everton manage a few good performances per season mate, the benchmark is doing it consistently, a couple of good performances followed by mediocrity does not win you the league

Good point, well made

[stmichael]

I'm behind Rafa, though accept that he's not infallible and does things which puzzle/frustrate us. But at the end of the day, he is a quality manager who has a long term vision for the club and the purpose of mind to carry it through. People say he's stubborn - and maybe he is - but he has the balls to make decisions that he thinks are right rather than just think about them. Something we all saw in the derby with Gerrard being subb'd.

When Rafa came in, we needed a complete rehaul. Options were:
1) to do a Chelsea and go out and buy a new team of top class internationals
2) To do Wenger and try to build a team from scratch using unknown young players
3) to do it piecemeal and replace the deadwood with high-average players, then good players, followed by excellent players and then world class players

We couldn't afford option 1. No-one has time for option 2 anymore - I mean who would accept a 3 year rebuild without any silverware and trying to build from grass roots youth up? Most of the fans who moan on phone-ins are proof of that. So the only option was no. 3 .

Rafa knew he has neither the money or time to waste. His only option was to try and plug the gap by buying what I'd call stop-gap players and then try to sell them on and/or buy better every transfer window as we improved and got more money. It's only now that we are starting to enter the excellent/world class market with Torres. And we need a few more of his calibre if we are to plug the 20 point gap against a team that spent ~54million on just three players after winning the Premiership (not including the >20 million or whatever they spent on Tevez after that!). Personally I think that would mean at least one real winger of the Quaresma quality, if not two, a central defender and a left back. Such a team would be challenging in the 'here and now'.

In the meantime, Rafa's longer term thinking has become clear: in order to build a sustainable football club where you're not spending lots on trying to maintain that challenge year after year, you need to bring in players young and develop them. Buy young talent and start building "a-la Arsenal". Which is what's happening.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

Spot on St Mike... I couldn't have put it better myself.

and imagine if he did go now, we would have to start all over again PLUS the added pressure that Liverpool FC had changed its tradition and no longer stood by its manager in hard times!

Its frustating when we are not playing excellent football at the moment but we are STILL INVOLVED IN EVERY COMPETITION.