Liverpool FC Forum

[Good Bob]

If this thread has turned into one of Stu's incredibly tedious diatribes about who and what constitutes "class", then f*ck this for a game of soldiers.

What I will say is that if England don't suffer in the heat, don't lose another striker, and don't fall into the trap of sitting back for the last half hour of games, they are capable of doing some damage in this year's tournament. I don't think for a second that we'll win, but if we get a favourable draw and some of the minnows take some scalps, it may get interesting.

While Stu's clearly in the mood though, maybe he can list all of the world class players that featured for all of the following sides?...

2004 Euro 2004 winners - Greece
2004 Euro 2004 losing finalists - Portugal
2002 World Cup finalists - a poor Germany team
2002 3rd Place play-off - Korea vs Turkey

To get to the latter stages of, and even winning, a World Cup or European Championship these days, it's not necessarily about playing the best football. It's about grinding out results, getting important decisions going for you, avoiding suspensions and having enough quality players available for the duration of the tournament. The likes of Brazil and Argentina are more than capable of having a great run derailed by a dodgy penalty, a silly yellow card or an untimely injury. If fortune goes England's way, we've got enough goals in the side to make inroads.

Not that I'm willing to put money on us winning, mind.

Also red or dead, the chances are very slim of you winning the world cup if you only win four games.

I've had this arguement a million times. Who's willing to bet me 50 quid that Argentina, Brazil or Italy won't be in the final?

And who's willing to put money on England winning it? I'm sorry but to many people don't put there money were there mouth is.

I'm not saying you need to have the best players to win, but it helps and nine times out of ten, the best players and the best teams do the best things.

Sitting there and coming out with arguements like that is pub talk. You're either good enough or you aren't. England aren't, if you're going to come out with like that, have the balls to back it up with a plausible reason and a bet.

[Good Bob]

5 years ago if you'd said Carragher would be rated as one of the best in the country, let alone the world you'd have been laughed at. People were saying he shouldn't be playing for Liverpool let alone England.

5 years ago I wouldn't have had Carra in the England team, and now I would.

5 years ago Wayne Rooney was at school. Maybe we should take that into account before letting him back into the first 11?

5 years ago Carragher was a 22 year old proffessional. Rooney was a 15 year old schoolboy. Slight difference. Absoloutely nothing to do with the point i was making.

[Good Bob]

5 years ago if you'd said Carragher would be rated as one of the best in the country, let alone the world you'd have been laughed at. People were saying he shouldn't be playing for Liverpool let alone England.

5 years ago I wouldn't have had Carra in the England team, and now I would.

5 years ago Wayne Rooney was at school. Maybe we should take that into account before letting him back into the first 11?

ROONEY OUT!

He already is.

[JC_81]

If Carra and Terry aren't 'International class' then name me off the top of your head the centre backs in world football that you consider to be'International class'.

Cannavaro, Nesta, Hyypia, Ferdinand, Gallas, Toure, Lucio, Puyol, Heinze, Ayala.

All footballers with excellent attributes in alot of area's.

Well I've listened to your arguments Stu and we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

For me, Terry is better than every player on that list with the exception of the Italians.  Heinze isn't even a centre back.  You argue that there is a difference between good club players and International players and that that becomes clear when you take a good club player and put him into unfamiliar surroundings with different players in an national team.  Well I've personally watched Hyypia, Puyol and Toure (from your list) ripped apart playing for their national teams out of their familiar club set-ups.  But that doesn't necessarily mean they're not international class, just as it doesn't mean Carragher is not an International player because of one poor performance in a friendly against Denmark (FFS it's the only chance he's had to play CB at International level...)

For me, Toure has not done enough to be on that list, while Lucio, Ferdinand and Puyol should be nowhere near it.

Terry, Carragher, Nesta, Cannavaro, Gallas, Stam (still), Hyypia, Maldini (still), Ayala (just about still), Thuram and Cordoba are all in the elite group of centre halves imo.

Players like King, Toure, Senderos, Ramos, Millito, Kompany etc may one day reach that category.

Woodgate may have reached that level but I can't see it now.  Campbell will never reach that level again and Ferdinand has the potential to reach that level again if he sorts himself out.  Lucio, for all his talent, is a liability on an even bigger scale than Ferdinand and Puyol is much improved but not in the top bracket of centre halves imo.

[Good Bob]

Well I disagree with you completely.

I've put my neck on the line time and time again over things like this, Baros, Finnan, Carragher, Ashton, Crouch, Morientes, Owen, Fowler, Pennant, Bullard, Phillips, Keane etc, etc, to name a few. I've been slated at the time and proven right in the long run every time.

Granted I got Reina very wrong, like I've said a million times though, I don't claim to know much about goalkeepers.

I'll do the same again with Yaya Toure who I think is an exceptional talent and will be an excellent player over the coming years.

[JC_81]

Well I disagree with you completely.

I've put my neck on the line time and time again over things like this, Baros, Finnan, Carragher, Ashton, Crouch, Morientes, Owen, Fowler, Pennant, Bullard, Phillips, Keane etc, etc, to name a few. I've been slated at the time and proven right in the long run every time.

Granted I got Reina very wrong, like I've said a million times though, I don't claim to know much about goalkeepers.

I'll do the same again with Yaya Toure who I think is an exceptional talent and will be an excellent player over the coming years.

Well I agree with you on Yaya Toure, so we haven't disagreed on absolutely everything today

[Good Bob]

Lets face it, if you weren't such an arguementative tosser we'd agree on everything.

[JC_81]

Lets face it, if you weren't such an arguementative tosser we'd agree on everything.

Shut it you  

[Good Bob]

[ivor_the_injun]

get a f*cking room.

[Bad Bob]

2004 Euro 2004 winners - Greece
2004 Euro 2004 losing finalists - Portugal
2002 World Cup finalists - a poor Germany team
2002 3rd Place play-off - Korea vs Turkey

To get to the latter stages of, and even winning, a World Cup or European Championship these days, it's not necessarily about playing the best football. It's about grinding out results, getting important decisions going for you, avoiding suspensions and having enough quality players available for the duration of the tournament. The likes of Brazil and Argentina are more than capable of having a great run derailed by a dodgy penalty, a silly yellow card or an untimely injury. If fortune goes England's way, we've got enough goals in the side to make inroads.

I'd agree with this Ivor...after all, it's still a relatively short tournament where anything can happen.  If a team can collectively start to gel and generate results (and get the rub of the green along the way), they can go far.

In fact, in some regards I think it is a little bit easier to advance deep into a tournament like the World Cup or Euro with a limited team than it is in the Champions League at club level.  At least with the international tournament it is a month long and if you can build momentum and ride your luck for a month--like Greece in 2004--than you can win it.  With the Champions League, the fact that the tournament happens over the course of a season means that some teams can lose momentum and get turfed out by "lesser" sides if they lose form at the wrong time (as we did against Benfica this season).  But, back to the issue...

I think the key is how well the team plays as a unit: all of the teams mentioned above played remarkably well as a unit over the course of the tournament without having a lot of star players (I'm purposefully avoiding the "world class", "international class" labels because I have no fookin' idea where those categories begin and end, TBH).  The Greeks were a dour team to watch but, fook me, they worked well together!  The Portuguese had a bit more talent in their side but they were also well drilled by Scolari.  The Germans in 2002 had a very fortunate draw and played just well enough to creep into the final and the South Koreans, anyway, were well-coached, had the crowd behind them and reveled in the underdog role.

My point is, it can be done in international tournaments: well-coached, organized TEAMS can best sides filled with star players on their day.  The question is, are England well-coached and well-organized?

If I'm reading you correctly, Stu, you're implying that they're not and that this means that players like Carra and Terry will suffer more than players like Ferdinand or Campbell.  Personally, I won't disagree with you on the Carra debate: much as I love the lad for Liverpool, I recognize that a great deal of his success has to do with the partnership he's forged with Sami.  We've seen him struggle a bit in the last two seasons when Sami's been out or off his game (and this works the other way as well...Carra makes Sami better).  When Carra's in the England set up at centre back--a rare occurence--he's been partnered with a number of players and hasn't had time to forge an effective partnership with any of them, which is what he needs to settle and really thrive.

As for Terry, however, I think he's got what it takes to establish himself as the rock of the English side.  He's come of age in the last few years and is the beating heart of one of the best club sides in the world (damn that hurts to say!  ).  In that time he's had two different partners--Carvalho and Gallas--and has excelled alongside both.  I think he has the ability to adapt to the English set up and can partner effectively with Ferdinand.  I think he'll have an outstanding tournament for England and prove that he can play against the world's best.

My two cents, anyway...

[taff]

woo hoo a Bob with decent views at last 

[ivor_the_injun]

BBC are reporting Neville's "very doubtful" for the Trinidad & Tobago game.

Hopefully Carra will get the nod ahead of Hargreaves.

[EddieC]

I see Robbie's been at it again today, saying if we win the WC it will be in spite of Sven rather than because of him.

You've got to love the guy

[2520years]

There'll be a riot if Owen Hargreaves gets Neville's place for the T&T game.


Carra played there in the Jamaica game, so it would make sense that he will tomorrow (if Neville cries off).