Liverpool FC Forum

[lfcseb]

i think that the formation would be good with, gerrard alonso mascherano in the midfield and then torres kewell and kuyt, but where does that leave pennant hey?

[The Specialist]

Anyone see Riise playing left centre-mid in a 4-3-3 formation? It might be asking too much of him, but I would like to see it one day.

[SouthCoastShankly]

On a more frequent basis next season?

It just seems logical on all grounds, especially with the Babel transfer probably going through in the next 48 hours or so. Certainly when we're playing at home anyway.

I mean Torres is ideal for the formation, Kuyt has played in a front three for his country and Kewell is ideal for the formation. It also gets the best out of the central midfield and stops the Gerrard positional debate.

It'll definitely be interesting. I personally don't think so. I think the recent signings are a direct effort by Rafa to create strength and depth to the squad. If we look at the strikers on the books at the moment - yeah we have shelled out a lot of money but we will have 4 decent strikers in: Torres, Crouch, Kuyt and Babel.

Babel is no doubt an expensive talent but being only 20 i'm sure he is not coming to us demanding a start every game. Not to mention the fact that Babel is often classed as a winger.

I can see Rafa playing 4-3-3 against the right opposition and I suspect mainly when we are at home. But I cannot see him playing it anymore than last season purely because, even with our new signings, we aren't guaranteed to transform into a freely scoring style of team. Rafa will want to keep it tight still and tightness is more often than not achieved with a minimum of 4 in the middle.

[JoeTerp]

there is no point putting up likely first teams as rafa has run out of breath saying he likes to use his whole sqad and that includeds all the players at the clob

wouldn't that mean there is more of a point, because in effect it is more important to explore all of the possible options.  With teams with a firm XI that play nearly the same side every time out, I bet their posters don;t have nearly as much fun or creativity on message boards.

To answer some other posts, does it utilize our best players?  I think so. Gerrard is just right of centre where he belongs and mash and alonso are playing together and this is the only formation that can accomodate all of those 4-5-1 comes close, but Gerrard is not as effctive in the hole. With babel coming and ESPECIALLY if we somehow get Quaresma as well, we wil be loaded with talent that is in teh slash mode of half winger half striker and with two strikers who have the ability to play wide in Kuyt with Voronin as cover, and Crouch is a good target man, and given time torres could be one in the prem as well.

At first glance riise at LCM in the 4-3-3 might make some sense, he could take it a little wider than alonso and would be solid both defensivly and offer a powerful shot ( him and Gerrard in CM means any poor clearance or long rebound or deflection is getting sent back goalwards with power behind it) But I think he would offer more at LB in the formation since it is natually lacking width in the middle of the park

[redmikey]

the system isn't as important as taking the chances we create , i don't know but would bet we were in the top three for shots for the season

we need strikers in the box and chance converted , rafa can play 1  4 2 3 1 , 4 4 2, 4 33 , 4 5 1, what ever as long as we take the chances

[JoeTerp]

the system isn't as important as taking the chances we create , i don't know but would bet we were in the top three for shots for the season

we need strikers in the box and chance converted , rafa can play 1  4 2 3 1 , 4 4 2, 4 33 , 4 5 1, what ever as long as we take the chances

Amen

[Ade]

I've thought for a while that Rafa's been slowly reverting to a 4-2-3-1, similar to what he could play at Valencia. He's cautious, and that worked for him there. What he's tried in the Prem so far hasn't worked, and given that Maureen had success with a similar formation for his first two seasons, then lost out to Fergie when he went 4-4-2, the 4-2-3-1 looks the formation to play next year.

Fergie looks like he's  shaping up to do the same now too.

With Masch and Xabi sitting, he'll be tempted to play them both. Who wouldn't?

Reina

Finnan
Carra
Agger
Heinze

Xabi
Masch

RM
Gerrard
Kewell

Torres

[Scottbot]

On a more frequent basis next season?

It just seems logical on all grounds, especially with the Babel transfer probably going through in the next 48 hours or so. Certainly when we're playing at home anyway.

I mean Torres is ideal for the formation, Kuyt has played in a front three for his country and Kewell is ideal for the formation. It also gets the best out of the central midfield and stops the Gerrard positional debate.

I think you're probably right and if the Babel transfer goes through it would not surprise me if we lined up 4-3-3 on a few occasions next season. Rafa is all about options, he sets his teams up to play in different ways and it seems as if he adds a new formation every year. We've seen a lot of 4-5-1 (and it's variations), 4-4-2 and to a lesser degree 3-5-2 and 3-4-3. Gerrard talks about the work rafa puts them through in training in order to make the players feel comfortable in different formations. He talks about the attention to detail and how the patterns and movements are now so ingrained that the players can switch at the drop of a hat.

Coming from Ajax and the Dutch youth system, Babel is certainly a good fit for 4-3-3 and from what little i have seen of him i'd say he will probably spend the majority of his career as a forward/striker rather than an out-an-out winger. If he comes i expect Kewell (fitness permitting) to be first choice on the left with Babel asked to fill in right across the front-line.

[Reinas No.1 Fan]

The formation has potential to work, especially with the players, however the important thing is that the front man isnt completely abandoned by the wing forwards.

[stmichael]

On a more frequent basis next season?

It just seems logical on all grounds, especially with the Babel transfer probably going through in the next 48 hours or so. Certainly when we're playing at home anyway.

I mean Torres is ideal for the formation, Kuyt has played in a front three for his country and Kewell is ideal for the formation. It also gets the best out of the central midfield and stops the Gerrard positional debate.

I think you're probably right and if the Babel transfer goes through it would not surprise me if we lined up 4-3-3 on a few occasions next season. Rafa is all about options, he sets his teams up to play in different ways and it seems as if he adds a new formation every year. We've seen a lot of 4-5-1 (and it's variations), 4-4-2 and to a lesser degree 3-5-2 and 3-4-3. Gerrard talks about the work rafa puts them through in training in order to make the players feel comfortable in different formations. He talks about the attention to detail and how the patterns and movements are now so ingrained that the players can switch at the drop of a hat.

Coming from Ajax and the Dutch youth system, Babel is certainly a good fit for 4-3-3 and from what little i have seen of him i'd say he will probably spend the majority of his career as a forward/striker rather than an out-an-out winger. If he comes i expect Kewell (fitness permitting) to be first choice on the left with Babel asked to fill in right across the front-line.

Babel, having played in the Ajax 433, gets in the box all the time when playing left wing. It's drilled into them from the womb as they have to give the right winger another target to aim for when the ball is being crossed from the right. I think we severely lacked a player getting in the box last season to support the strikers and I reckon Babel will do that for us.

This is a key point for me, as it doesn't matter how fantastic our wide buys are if none of them are encouraged to get into the box when we attack. One of the major differences between us and Man Utd/Chelsea is that they bust a gut ( literally with Frankie ) to support attacks. We only had Gonzalez of our wide men who made any attempt to do this last season ( Harry does it when fit to be fair ). I think Rafa's inherent caution has a lot to do with this & he needs to unshackle the wide guys.

All in all, I really think Rafa is going to try to make us a fast counter attacking side... Build your attack deep with quick transitional play and a more beautiful, fast striking, assault ALA Valencia when he managed them.

All of Rafa's attacking purchases this year are pacey. Benayuon is quick, Babel is fast, Torres is ridiculously fast, Voronin is quick and accelerates very well.

Now look at our other attackers... Kewell is quick, and Pennant is quite fast. *crickets* He's building a fast carpet football side with Pennant to make opposition fear a cross to Crouch or Kuyt.

All of those players are very skilled at moving the ball quickly, enjoy a short passing game carpet football (like Arsenal or Rafa's Valencia), and I feel that Rafa isn't building a "cross it into the box" type.

[bigmick]

I would be absolutely amazed if Rafa went with a conventional 4-3-3 in a single competitive game this season coming, unless we are playing Acrington Stanley or someone similar at home in the third round of the Cup. Almost all of the derivatives of the formation which have been posted up so far would in actual fact operationally be a 4-5-1, and as such don't really qualify. Also, a 4-5-1 with Torres as the lone striker wouldn't seem to work on any level for me, given the description of his playing style which those who know him have ventured. He could though operate as the most forward of the central 5, with Gerrard and Alonso/Masherano/Sissoko in behind, and Kuyt/Crouch in front of him.

4-3-3 though from Rafa? Not a chance and I don't blame him, I wouldn't play it either. The way modern fullbacks push on in a common 4-4-2 would mean that a team playing a classical 4-3-3 would get absolutely swamped in midfield.

[HacksawJimDuggin]

Dont be surprised to see Rafa play 3-5-2 a lot more this year!

[stmichael]

I would be absolutely amazed if Rafa went with a conventional 4-3-3 in a single competitive game this season coming, unless we are playing Acrington Stanley or someone similar at home in the third round of the Cup. Almost all of the derivatives of the formation which have been posted up so far would in actual fact operationally be a 4-5-1, and as such don't really qualify. Also, a 4-5-1 with Torres as the lone striker wouldn't seem to work on any level for me, given the description of his playing style which those who know him have ventured. He could though operate as the most forward of the central 5, with Gerrard and Alonso/Masherano/Sissoko in behind, and Kuyt/Crouch in front of him.

4-3-3 though from Rafa? Not a chance and I don't blame him, I wouldn't play it either. The way modern fullbacks push on in a common 4-4-2 would mean that a team playing a classical 4-3-3 would get absolutely swamped in midfield.

The way I look at it Mick, no system is ever dead as they all have their strengths and weaknesses. For example, my main problem with playing 3 at the back is that you need specific types of players to make it work whereas most people are just brought up playing 4-4-2 and know the roles inside out.

A back 3 allows you the extra man in centre mid without sacrificing a striker and can give you better possession. However, it allows sides to get in easier down the sides of your defence unless your wing backs tuck in making a 5 and defeating the object.

I quite like the system to be honest but I think it needs a better quality of player to make it work and belief in passing the ball and retaining possession.

Roy Evans had a version of it working very well due to Macca's amazing stamina and ability to double up with either wing back.

[.:RedKuyt:.]

i think so

[Scottbot]

I would be absolutely amazed if Rafa went with a conventional 4-3-3 in a single competitive game this season coming, unless we are playing Acrington Stanley or someone similar at home in the third round of the Cup. Almost all of the derivatives of the formation which have been posted up so far would in actual fact operationally be a 4-5-1, and as such don't really qualify. Also, a 4-5-1 with Torres as the lone striker wouldn't seem to work on any level for me, given the description of his playing style which those who know him have ventured. He could though operate as the most forward of the central 5, with Gerrard and Alonso/Masherano/Sissoko in behind, and Kuyt/Crouch in front of him.

I'm not sure anyone really plays what you would call a conventional 4-3-3 these days Mick and i doubt St. meant it as an out an out rigid 4-3-3. The two wide men will always tuck in and drop back a little to help the midfield to help the midfield in todays high paced game. I'm not sure i can/could be surprised at any formation Benitez chooses to play and we must have seen just about all of them by now! Remember that 3-6-1 set-up we played up at St.James Park a couple of seasons back!?

As for Torres playing as a lone frontman? i wouldn't rule that out completely either. Hasn't he played much of his time in La Liga as the only striker? At least that's what I have been led to believe.