Liverpool FC Forum

[red37]

I wonder just how much 'Ripping it up and starting again'  Rafa Benitez is tempted to consider, as he sips his Sangria in the sun over the coming days.  Two-thirds of the way through an understatedly 'testing' campaign and with time on his hands to reflect, more importantly time to formulate and plot his next phase of the grand Masterplan thats now in some degree of maturity layed down since his arrival from Spain 3 years ago.  The manager has set upon a path that he believes to be a fruitful one ultimately.  With the key components of this existing squad, enhanced with the odd 6-10 million acquisition every so often, to raise the bar just that tad higher -The pattern.  One that may have been set fair for quite some time had the dynamic not have been shifted through recent events.  But how far can you go with a squad basically made up of a variable mix of Two or three world class regulars/a sprinkling of makeweights/several internationals/a few square pegs thrown in for good measure...?   Well far enough is the answer, but clearly not quite far enough.  Not at least until they are ALL of a similar quality and standard, anyway.  (Look at Alonso, Kuyt, Gerrard, even Carragher et al)  Take the likes of those out the frame and the rest indeed look just an ordinary, albeit a well versed and oftentimes cohesive bunch, it has to be said.  Though far from a consistently effective title challenging unit, as of yet.  Results in the end however will speak with stark reality and are frustratingly fluctuating on that basis, all too often. Too many troughs and peaks.

It might be interesting to ponder the thoughts that must now be going through the mind of a manager who, after consolidating and instilling some level of footballing respect and merit back into a slumbering Giant post the heroics in Istanbul on a budget, and admirably so.  Who largely achieves this success through the collection of a talent pool representing Liverpool's fortunes spread equally across the 'Rate out of 10' spectrum.  Its bias heavily centred towards hard graft and 'making-do' as its main reson detre. (yet remains one severely lacking in creative license).  To a custodian who has in effect been qualified (through now being in a position to with a little more scope outside the usual constraints)  to stand back and make his own half-time assessment based on the efforts of himself and the staff under his command to date. And for once, become able to charter waters previously denied him under the outmoded regime at the helm. Whether or not infact, he wishes or feels obligated to make any Major changes at all...living and dying through the courage of his convictions (stubbornly or not, the Benitez mentality is common and decisive ground upon which to speculate to the contrary).  It will be an interesting chapter of events to witness as they unfold.  Certainly im not talking about the 'Hollywood' signings.  Far from it, i would never equate the business of LFC to the levels of a 'video game' (which some do)  I speak only of the elements that are necessary to its final realisation - That may be just simply by tweaking the pack.  As is the clubs present modus operandi. Through of course, by no other requisite than one of  'Hobsons choice'.

Until now, Rafa Benitez, already within sniffing distance of some grasp or 'clear idea' as to how the final concept was actually going to pan out and become tangibly evident, given the direction its momentum has followed since page one. (The unsugared version of events i mean) ...pre being able to compete in a level transfer market, if that makes the point any clearer. Hadn't been able to rely on factors now about to be put in place for helping in smoothing out some of the creases along that road, from a monetary stance. (at least thats the prevailing assumption)  My point of interest comes about from whether this now warrants a complete, even a partial dismissal of the work achieved up until this point...if that is the case, then how long will the 'new' rebuilding process take before it flourishes... will the time be allowed to restructure all of that...can you expect the supporters to dream about it all over again, from the start?  All questions that need answering in due course.  Outside the limitations of finance, the decisions made have to be the right ones for the club, there will be no choice in the matter....and no hiding from that. I can envisage Rafa being the type of man who would look forward with slightly uncomfortable trepidation (given the expectations and demands the fans will now be clamouring to see materialise, unrealistic or not). To the day when necessity (again, through pressure as much as preference perhaps?) brings the knock at the door of the 'Big Fella' politely asking for yet another astronomical amount of cash for yet another potentially unrealistic return on its investment, should the player 'not feel/actually be up to it' - The challenge that is.

(But better the devil you know? - at least the ones you can and do feel comfortable working with)  Or better the devil you can afford to court regardless.....?  After all, principles are there to be stuck to...i cannot see Benitez blowing the lot on a 'whim' - it will be the right deal at the right time.

At the end of the day the intention is clear....'In seeing this club, Liverpool F.C. aspire to its goals'  and those are among the highest standard possible to attain. The single most obvious and pertinent scenario being the club reinstated as Champions of England again. (whichever flavour of league you choose to name it as)  Winning it still means you are the best, the 'title holders'... The Benchmark. That carrot must be whetting the appetite of Senor Benitez more than ever as he and the majority of the rest of the club take time out for some invigorating and hopefully inspiring R+R in Portugal this week.  Maybe we will now begin to see the tools of Benitez' trade put to some real long term productive gain other than for the purpose of them justifying all the actions they are employed to do....and little more than that, with less than half the fertile land available within which to exploit any significant and lasting headway on the pace setters.  A situation that this clubs contemporaries have continually enjoyed of late to our own demoralising expense.  Up until the 'takeover' it was seemingly a never ending and exasperatingly decreasing patch of ground upon which to compete at all.  The descending spiral into mediocrity may well have been halted through the love of a chairman hell bent on nurturing the growth of 'his' club viably into the next era, yet without the depth of resources with which to successfully achieve that aim.  And the allegiance (Re: sacrifice of all that) alongside the good grace of a couple of billionaires who, although may well take time to dissolve into the psyche in regards to holding a respected place at the table... ultimately will hold the definitive say in how this club is going to fare in this new found 'Garden of Roses' from this day on. 

None of us can turn back time, several times we wished it possible... sadly it isnt.  And age old chestnuts such as the one facing our Manager presently will throw up endless argument after counter-claim as to the 'right path' to follow against the outcome of the actual one traversed.  Basically Rafa and the team have a lot of thinking to do this far into proceedings, I for one look forward immensely to seeing this fresh direction and the ensuing Labour of love yield fruit in due course, as of course we all do. If of course there IS any significant change of strategy at all outside a bit of 'fine tuning' (you'd be forgiven for desiring a bit more than that though)  In any case, interesting times indeed lay in wait. We'll see.   YNWA

[Red Red Tom]

Wow - another great post, and one that's taken me a while to read.  I cannot say whether he'll start the rebuilding from scratch.  I'm almost certain he'll bring us the league, but whether the team is:


                     Reina

   ?           Carra         ?            ?

  ?        Gerrard          Alonso  ?

                 ?        Kuyt


OR a team that includes the players that I've grown to love - Garcia, Riise, Sami, and Momo - that IS important to me.

I want Liverpool to lift that title so I can brag about it down the pub, I want them to lift it because it will be the best day of my life.  I want them to lift it because that's where we belong - but I also want them to lift it because Sami deserves it - Riise deserves it, Garcia deserves it.  If we signed a load of players over the summer and 'did a Chelsea' I don't know that I'd feel the same.  Part of this club is the bond between the players and the fans - and if that's severed I don't know if it really will be Liverpool winning the league...

[66-1112520797]

Obviously you got an A' plus in English lit Red, TBH I couldnt keep up with it. The post I mean I got lost amongst all that and I'm sure its a top post.
So if I may I'll try to answer the question posed on the thread title   and maybe some of our more educated posters can disect your post, no offence mate.

I think the squad he has built so far is okay, I'd say he's 3/4 of the way through to finnishing it off. I think the idea of scrapping the squad and starting all over again is ludicrous (I dont know if you implied that as an option?)

Certainly im not talking about the 'Hollywood' signings.  Far from it, i would never equate the business of LFC to the levels of a 'video game' (which some do)  I speak only of the elements that are necessary to its final realisation

Now until the other day (takeover) I would never " equate" the business of LFC to the levels of video games. Like you rightly or wrongly stated Kuyt, Gerrard, Alonso and Carra are essential to the Liverpool cause. All those players would probably reach double figures in terms of there millions, some more than others.
So the question I'll ask is, if you do not expect Liverpool to do business like a "video game". Then how do you expect to sign players that can be as important and as good as the four mentioned above ?
So basilcy if you expect to see other names apear alongside Kuyt, Alonso, Gerrard and Carra yo going to have to pay the price.
We seem to contradict ourselves a fair bit on here saying this. "Its not the LFC way to buy big, or Hollywood" It wasnt the LFC way to be taken over by Yanks neither, but reality is hitting hard. Yet these Yanks have possibly the money to help finnish this squad off with some quality signings. It seems its the way of the world today in football and money talks.
So with Rafa's signings so far he has built up a squad on a moderately finacial platform, he's been spending the amounts available to him. Now whether his signings are good or bad, look at the current squad now. Their not title contenders yet I dont think.

I think there are two possibilities of strategy's that could be changed, one off the field and one on it. His signings, he's been asking for investment and money for his transfer budget. I think he's brought on all the quantity needed (with the money thats been available before) Now he needs to finnish that off with the purchase's of quality, its definately needed. I saw a quote somewhere the other day saying how it was the Liverpool way to sign the quality of four players rather than the quantity of eight.
I think though the question which could be asked after money made available is. Hand on heart will Rafa make the right signings ?

I think the next strategy to be considered, is our forwards. Rafa is a manger who likes the team to contribute to scoring goals yet doesnt really burdern his strikers with getting them. Crouch bagged a few on the trot some time back, and Rafa said that goals alone wont keep him (Crouch in the team). Thats a stratergy I honestly believe Rafa has to change to an extent. Keep the team thing, where he's happy to have all memebers of the team contributing to scoring. But lets be honest, who else apart from the front four and Gerrard can you see from scoring ?
So his own method there isnt working really, I think he needs to change stratergy's by signing a 'fox in the box' striker. A player in the Lucas Podolski mould or someone like that, thats been our biggets downfall for a few seasons now, not killing off games when we've had the chance. Kuyts a great player, but the way he's used in the team and the system we'll never get the goals return out of him. I think and I dont care what he did in Spain, but if Rafa wants to win the prem, he's almost got to cut the work ethic from his forwards and throw into the team a lazy goal getter. I'd sacrifice a work ethic from one or two forwards if it means goals.

I hope that had some relevance to your thread Red

[red37]

Right Bam, ill have a go at clearing up some of my mess  (no 'A' in English-Lit at school mate...far from it - i was hardly in the bloody place!)  My problem is structuring these essays into a coherant read and not with the content i want to put across.... the meaning of the word 'succinct' is one i must get around to adopting one of these days.

anyway some points to address....

I think the squad he has built so far is okay

OK being the operative word. But as squads go..it aint bad.

I think the idea of scrapping the squad and starting all over again is ludicrous (I dont know if you implied that as an option?)

Not at all....the inference was whether you get so far down one path, come up against further options open to you and consider the possibility of 'tweaking' what you already have as opposed to rebuilding the key parts as WELL as the supporting framework just because you may be in a better position to do it financially. My point being...at which stage might Benitez consider turning an eye towards his preferred 'A' list targets, instead of the ones the club has had to settle for up until now due to limited resources. (in any case this wasn't a bone for chewing on...just a reflection of how things have turned out more than anything) and if you asked the man in person, would you be surprised to learn, out of curiosity if it were indeed relevant.

if you do not expect Liverpool to do business like a "video game". Then how do you expect to sign players that can be as important and as good as the four mentioned above ?

The phrase is borne out of the wild ambitious notions that are frequently displayed by supporters of the club who will continue to demand the next 'uberstar' is signed forthwith, based on their rating in games such as FM07 et al.....this is no Abramovich style scenario where, £20 mill plus can be nonchalantly blown on any tom, dick and harry with great regularity just because he is perceived to be a great player...or scores shedloads in 'Champ manager'. Clubs have to have their share of key players, yes thats true. But equally they require ballast in the squad, the ones who will do the donkey work...the ugly stuff, week in week out for the love of the game. A certain standard level of quality spread throughout it in order to produce a team ethic in whatever 11 is selected. (which is of course the Benitez mantra)  Not, in the willy-nilly profligate throwing away of vast sums of cash, which do nothing else except destabilise any business plan. Which im sure will eventually be learned at some cost to those who choose to act in that way. The underpinning of the first team via the youth system/remainder of the squad must always be in focus compared with the occasional drafting in of any established quality from the marketplace - where necessary and gradually. For instance its interesting to note the amount of young lads recruited quietly behind the scenes...who knows, a few of these may yet turn into the next talked about names themselves.

I think he's brought on all the quantity needed (with the money thats been available before) Now he needs to finnish that off with the purchase's of quality, its definately needed.

Answered partly above, but worth a mention separately, if for no other purpose than to highlight the dangers of change for change sake and the consequence of wholesale tailoring. Only where necessary would i expect to see this injection of superiority. This isnt the place to speculate over names or even to identify the weak-links, that is common knowledge to us all. But what i would say is that, different in the old days where there was a policy in place of 'one out - replace with like'  there can be a tendency to over egg the pudding. Not a great deal is wrong at present, but what there is that needs attention is of some significance.  It is widely recognised that Benitez will have his ideas of who/when/where these alterations are to be made and we remain rightly optimistic as to who fills in these gaps next transfer window onwards. But i would be averse to championing the likes of Villa/Ronaldo/Cannovaro/Torres/Ribery/Lahm etc etc...at the club if they are not actually the kind of player we need. Even if they were, what makes us all of a sudden an attractive proposition realistically. Money alone?  That helps but it will take time to establish confidence in the Market as much as in our own house. Things are better than they were...but there is still a long way to go.

I think though the question which could be asked after money made available is. Hand on heart will Rafa make the right signings ?

Managers aren't infallible...they all make errors of judgement. Some pull off the unexpected...but none of them are miracle workers tbf.  On that basis i reckon we have done well enough on the budget available. So in answer to your question, in all probability - Yes i would be optimistic in expecting Rafa to deliver in future. (again, a word of caution relating to the 'type' of player most of us are hoping to see bedecked in Red) They could already be here in the lower ranks... Rafa seems equipped to be able to identify them soon enough. They just need time and games.

Rafa is a manger who likes the team to contribute to scoring goals yet doesnt really burdern his strikers with getting them.

This follows a Benitez pattern from his previous clubs and i suspect is cast in stone within his mindset. Not especially a weakness. But one that could do with developing further within the English game its fair to say. How much rope do you allow a Continental manager in the Prem?  as much as it takes to hang himself with.  In other words...this is an area for improvement that only we seem to see as a significant one. Time will tell whether it becomes a watershed on Benitez reign. He certainly is his own man, none of us are going to change that for one minute. As for Crouch...who remains much maligned for me. The lad has become heavily relied upon all too often. And it shows when he is missing.  An over reliance on the midfield has perhaps engendered indifference within the strikers...as for Kuyt and Bellamy, their industry is often overlooked by lack of support up top, making their jobs doubly hard. And the invisible Fowler....   So in answer to your thoughts...again, yes there is work to do there.

if Rafa wants to win the prem, he's almost got to cut the work ethic from his forwards and throw into the team a lazy goal getter

A strong, quick lad with a clinical eye for the bag and who is aerially dominant fits my bill...not sure if a lazy one would be tolerated though! 

 

Anyway Bam, thanks for your input. I hope we now know where each other is coming from a little clearer.

[66-1112520797]

The lazy thing was tongue in cheek, not literally meant if you know what I mean.

[Ciggy]

The problem we have at times is I dont know what type of game we play, we are not a brilliant attacking side, like Arsenal or the mancs.
When Crouch plays we are predictable with the long ball its frustrating to watch.
Another problem we have is no one fears us any more, if anything we fear others.
We will see in the summer when hopefully Rafa will be given a great sum of money to buy the targets he wants to improve us, quality not quantity is what is needed and maybe that means 3 players over 15 million pound.
Villa being one but we would have to pay in the region of 20 million or more.

[red37]

As much as it would be great to call upon players of the calibre of Villa and his ilk...my suspicion is that within the mind of Benitez, he isnt planning that many major changes at all...you get the impression that he is reasonably happy with the stock he has at hand. Now whether that is worrying for us, or simply a case of the managers confidence in his own ability to turn water into wine at any given point...within adversity or not. Will have to be allowed to pan out naturally over the coming period. I dont see him as one of these who will blow the lot on three 'big names' when he can make do with One 'Decent buy' and a couple of his own adepts drafted in on a budget.. It smacks of his 'style'.  Which i suppose is a sign of good housekeeping at least. Frustrating as it may appear to the fans who fork out for the priveledge of seeing their heroes in action. And at the end of the day it makes no bones how famous they are...how much they earn. As long as they pull on the Red shirt and bust their guts out for the cause. I couldnt care less if we need a 'David Villa' when there is 'Cyril Bumfledge' from Allerton who cost peanuts and who is equally capable of doing the business for Liverpool F.C.

Of course these are rare finds indeed and why should you settle for a beefburger when you can enjoy a fine fillet?  Well, you dont. But neither does it have to be beyond the scope of imagination to expect the squad largely present now to remain intact, barring a couple of additions/subtractions over the summer. It is more to do with the methods employed in using these lads in the first place that is under scrutiny. Not their reputation or value. Because no matter how many millions of euro's spent on the next shirt selling certainty...if the problems lie deeper than the pockets provided to rectify them. Then the real subject under the microscope can only be the fella who is in control of the goods. Thats why i reckon Rafa has already sourced, identified and recruited most of his targets, already at the club now.  No matter what we are hoping for, there possibly isnt going to be any mass exodus in either direction.

The real issue here is of the level our own expectations lie at as much as anything. Certainly there are factors on the pitch that aren't right, thats understood. But is it really to do with the personnel...or the managers mentality?  I suspect a bit of both.

[RedBlood]

RAFA will stick to what he knows but buy better players who are more likely to be a success

we have a strong squad we just need 4 or 5 top draw players to compliment it

we need a goalscorer a left and right winger and left and right fullbacks in my opinion

the players we need to keep and build on are:

reina,carson,finnan,carra,agger,hyypia,riise,gerrard,alonso,sissoko,mascherano,pennant,kew
ell,gonazalez,garcia,kuyt,crouch,bellamey

these are the players good enough to play in a championship winning squad

plus carry on the development of all the youngsters brought inin the last few seasons i.e palleta,anderson,el zahr,roque,hobbs,antwi,insu etc....

oh yh just remembered did any1 see barragan against england u21'z he was very impressive hope we can get him back in future

[stmichael]

Excellent post Red37.

If you replace the 2/3 weakest players in your first team with 2/3 top players it will make a massive difference at relatively low cost. The problem over the last 15 years or so is that each manager we have had has bought mediocrity to replace mediocrity.

For example if you were to put Fake Ronaldo on our right wing, Henry upfront and Robben on the left then you instantly have a title winning team.

I know we hear it every season but once again the Liverpool manager is faced with a vital summer of transfer activity.

We have one of the largest squads in the Premier Lge so we dont need no more 'back-up' players. We need proven quality.

In the past Rafa has been constrained by his transfer budget but i think Hicks/Gilett will want to make a statement and allow Rafa a large transfer kitty to go get the players he wants.

Its easier said then done of course due to other clubs wanting to buy these players but hopefully we can go that extra yard and sign quality players instead of bench warmers.

[alxy]

Same question, different setting: take Ronaldo, Rooney and Scholes out of ManU and you'd have a mediocre team as well. So why are they top of the league now and we ain't? Sheer bloody luck is what I say! No serious injuries and no glut of new signings to gel into the team early in the season. So what if people call me bitter....

[Ade]

I still think we're deluding ourselves. Kuyt has a great attitude, but he's not a great player. He's a good player with potential, and cos he's still developing at LFC we'll persist with him. But let's not call him world class yet.

Finnan, on the other hand, isn't in your core team Red37, but he'd be in mine. Why look to replace him this season when he has another 2, 3 or 4 years at the top, as one of the best RBs in Europe, which he is. Instead, buy an attacking right midfielder to play ahead of him and try and cash in on Pennant, who, quite frankly, is cack.

We need our world-class players in attacking positions; our defence - with the exception of Riise – is fine.

If we sign Alves (for right mid) and Villa we're looking at c£30m. I'd also take a punt on Gareth Bale at around £7m (if Walcott, a forward with electric pace is valued by Saints at around £10m, Bale will go for a lot less). Do that, and sell Cisse, Crouch and Pennant for £15m and you're looking at a £22m outlay on two world-class players who will transform our team into title contenders, and a great left back in the making.

I'm getting bored of getting to mid-February and reading threads on this board like 'Next season: can we challenge' or 'Still a lot to play for'.

So let's stop about.

[red37]

Finnan, on the other hand, isn't in your core team Red37, but he'd be in mine. Why look to replace him this season when he has another 2, 3 or 4 years at the top, as one of the best RBs in Europe, which he is.

I havn't dismissed Finnan at all....i just didnt feel it necessary within this topic to include a list of every player who is/has been instrumental to the cause. In that light i might have considered Crouch/Sami/Bellamy/Reina even Kewell (a fully fit and ready to go one) up to a point...

it was pertinant to mention 3, possibly four central key players who are relevant to the 'essence' of what i was intimating...and not a definitive roll call of the 'spine' of our team. Which clearly has much bolstering to undergo. That belongs in another thread. This one is about the thoughts going through the mind of Rafa, now that he will (on the face of it, anyway) be in a better position to form a 'stronger' plan of attack based on his activities in the Marketplace, this time round...

Look at Alonso, Kuyt, Gerrard, even Carragher et al

[stmichael]

The problem we have at times is I dont know what type of game we play, we are not a brilliant attacking side, like Arsenal or the mancs.

To be honest, that's purely down to Rafa's mentality Cig. He's always built his teams on having a strong spine and being difficult to break down first and foremost. The only thing we're missing is the quality of wide players which Rafa had at Valencia such as Vicente who would give us a different dimension.

Personally I think we're at a stage squadwise where investment in high quality attacking players (and we're not talking £7m strikers) will see us take the jump to genuinely challenging for the title. There's little need to fiddle around the edges.

Many of those games where we haven't come from behind in the last two seasons (the first season was an absolutely undefiniable mess with the worst injury crisis since we were promoted under Shankly) have been due to missed chances, not the lack of chances so often seen under Houllier. Blackburn on Boxing Day was a classic example of this - even the bizarre Everton 3-0 can be put in the same category.

You don't change for changes sake, and looking across the firmament of European management I see little that inspires me such that I'd advocate a change from Rafa.

[HOMER]

on all the posts that i've been reading so far everyone keeps stating that we nee 4 or 5 quality signings  to improve the first 11. Didn't we need 4 or 5 players when benitez joined us 3 years ago!
we've bought around 30 players spent up to 80-90 million and it seems from everyones posts that we are no better off (FIRST 11) than we were when houllier was in charge.
yes we might have a better squad - but when 11 players are on the pitch playing against the quality of arsenal a decent squad player is not going to change a match when brought on.

We haven't improved as much as I would have hoped - we were challenging for 3rd, 4th in the league three years ago.

we have a MASSIVE squad - bigger than chelski, manure and arsenal.
yet we still seem to be signing 2-3 millon pounds squad players - I think that benitez is thinking that if he buys enough players one is bound to be good enough for the first 11 !

we have quantity - now sign some quality to compete on the field agains the big teams - still win the champions league again tho!

[Ade]

The problem we have at times is I dont know what type of game we play, we are not a brilliant attacking side, like Arsenal or the mancs.

To be honest, that's purely down to Rafa's mentality Cig. He's always built his teams on having a strong spine and being difficult to break down first and foremost. The only thing we're missing is the quality of wide players which Rafa had at Valencia such as Vicente who would give us a different dimension.

Personally I think we're at a stage squadwise where investment in high quality attacking players (and we're not talking £7m strikers) will see us take the jump to genuinely challenging for the title. There's little need to fiddle around the edges.

Many of those games where we haven't come from behind in the last two seasons (the first season was an absolutely undefiniable mess with the worst injury crisis since we were promoted under Shankly) have been due to missed chances, not the lack of chances so often seen under Houllier. Blackburn on Boxing Day was a classic example of this - even the bizarre Everton 3-0 can be put in the same category.

You don't change for changes sake, and looking across the firmament of European management I see little that inspires me such that I'd advocate a change from Rafa.

agree with you on Rafa being the right man, but next season he has to prove that his mentality can adapt to what it takes to win the Premiership, as well as the players adapting to his mentality.

I agree with whoever posted that we're collecting squad players in the hope they might flower into real quality, but time's running low. Steven Gerrard will be 27 next season, and coming into his prime. If we fart around waiting for these fragile flowers to bloom our best player since Dalglish will be slipping past his peak.

It has to be next year, and to that end we have to sign 2, at most 3 world-class players: we should break the bank for Alves and Villa and forget about emerging wingers and CBs from South America.

My one hope, looking at our failure to go big on signings over the past few years is this: the board wouldn't sanction more than £14m for Houllier cos of doubts over his future; they wouldn't sanction what Rafa wanted for Alves and Simao cos of doubts over the ownership. Now these are resolved and the Yanks have to prove they are up for giving us a real tilt at the title, they'll spend big.

Here's hoping…