Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I agree with Lakes, it hasn't been great on here recently, and the level of tollerance for others views and thoughts has certainly gone down. If someone is NOT an obvious WUM, they shouldn't be subjected to the level of abuse they receive on here at times. We all have different ideas about football and just maybe the unpopular or alternate view may have some merit.

Spats like this between popular and long established members not only disrupts and spoils decent threads but sets the wrong example to others, who then think that its OK to abuse others as well.

I like both Lando and peewee and have no problems with either, but its time they put this behind them now and just tried to ignore each other if they can't get on. It also makes it much more difficult to post as if you support a view held by one of the protagonists it appears you are taking their side rather than just agreeing with them on a particular point. I have deleted quite a few posts now because of this. So you will all have to live out your lives never knowing the gems you have missed.

We had a great spell on here when the new MODS took over, but the zero tollerance to abuse soon fell by the wayside and things are now as bad as ever, but its not the MODs fault , we all need to try harder to avoid flame wars. I would never be a MOD but I do sympathise with them in situations like this, if they interfere they are accused of taking sides and if they don't they aren't doing their jobs.

I do feel that they could try to protect a few posters better than they do though.

[andy_g]

the sooner they both start to act like real men rather than claiming to be one the sooner this will all be over, but unfortunately i don't believe this is possible. some of the things being said by both are ridiculous and laughable and its impossible to take either one seriously, with each post they reveal themselves as a bigger fool than before. in my opinion both suffer from a vastly overrated ego and take themselves far too seriously, each believing themselves to be the dishonoured party. personally, i couldn't give a toss if they disappeared up their own backsides (or each others) completely and never came back.

having said that, reading their spats can be decent entertainment over a cup of tea in the morning (of the laughing at, not the laughing with variety) - and i'd wager that the vast majority of members feel the same.

[red37]

Who are the posters that need more 'protection' btw...if anybody has been unduly offended/upset beyond the usual indignation because of others actions, then certainly it needs addressing. As far as iam aware, nobody is being unfairly targeted (outside of those who ASK for such treatment). It might be better to actually name them/come out and admit it and get it out in the public domain, so that situation can be nailed down. However...

Way i see this (now) is that some degree of self moderating has to be employed, naturally enough it possibly doesn't need saying....but, there you go. Some things are better in the long run to be allowed to run their own course, without provocation/intervention etc...eventually, tedium will reign over retaliation. Particularly as you are unlikely to ever actually face your virtual nemesis. What would be the point?

Some you will 'click' with. Others appear to be harmonious to you (yet turn out to be anything but) And yet others still - will exasperate you beyond all human restraint. But still, it is NOT a real life scenario - which is maybe the most frustrating thing of all. Namely, you are not ABLE to square up to each other and settle it man to man. So it festers.

We have all tried various tactics in dealing with this issue. Some other mods have issued cards to the two parties involved. Some of us have attempted a more conciliatory approach behind the scenes. Alas, it seems that no matter which strategy is followed, there are simply some 'spats' you will never curtail other than an outright ban for all concerned. I don't want that - as in essence they are both members of the community who i would rather see using their rights to post rather than not at all. Regardless of the quality of the discussion...both are grown fellas, who support Liverpool FC. The reason why we are ALL here.

The key is in swallowing a little pride here...yes, both have added fuel to the fire...yes, both are stubborn and unwilling to alter their respective 'tack' - but ultimately, people will tire of it and dwindle away towards other websites should this prevail longer than both parties dignity could withstand...

As keepers of the peace, I don't wish to see the numbers fall because of the actions of a couple of posters with a gripe on each other. Burying any hatchets must be done solely with and at, their own discretion - soon may that day come. For the benefit of us all, Please.

[woof woof !]

Burying any hatchets must be done solely with and at, their own discretion - soon may that day come. For the benefit of us all, Please.

Bl'oody hell Red,  give them the hatchets , we all know where they'd most likely bury them 

On a more serious note. The feud between PeeWee and Lando has gone on long enough. As long standing members both have been given more than their fair share of slack.Their enmity towards each other has long gone past the "funny" mark and is stinking up each and every thread in which their paths cross.

Few people want to see either of the two longstanding and valued members banned but unless they both confine their personal abuse to a room of their own, red cards for the pair of them are fast becoming the likely result.

[account deleted by request]

Who are the posters that need more 'protection'

All you have to do to see which posters need more protection is read ANY of the recent match threads Red.

Maybe they don't "need" protecting, maybe its just me that doesn't enjoy seeing people belittled or abused for giving their honest opinion, or maybe they "ask for it" by giving their opinion.

Personally, I think its OK to say that someones opinion is f*ng idiotic or a load of cr@p, but not OK to say you are a f*ng idiot or you are a load of cr@p because you hold such an opinion.

Slight difference but completely different slant.

[red37]

Who are the posters that need more 'protection' btw...if anybody has been unduly offended/upset beyond the usual indignation because of others actions, then certainly it needs addressing. As far as iam aware, nobody is being unfairly targeted (outside of those who ASK for such treatment).

You are always going to get a bit of 'ribbing' 'banter' 'hearty disagreement' call it what you will....

In truth, if you are offended by the kind of mildly abrasive statements, along the lines that you have mentioned. Then you deserve to be debating issues in no such place as a public arena. Will always happen. Fact.

The area of concern that interested me is where you say....'protection' - Its one thing if you are able enough to dish it, then you should be man enough to take some back. However, if we are talking about a more sinister level of 'insult' then, it goes without saying...we all act upon it as and when and where appropriate. Such as in this instance for example. But there is only so much you can do to alleviate/release the pressure as an arbitrary faction amongst those who will be determined to set and follow their own agenda against the greater integrity of the forum as a whole. You cannot turn water into wine. Somewhere along the line this has to be addressed by the parties involved, by their own conscience.

Distinction is clear between labelling someone's view as 'idiotic, cr@p or invalid' against personal insults that go beyond the acceptable. unless you are part and parcel of the whole blame process and you willingly fling such abuse around - you then WILL get offended by it.

No brainer. If you wish it to stop - then one of them HAS, to back down first. Simple.

[dawson99]

i keep thinking the title says massage

[account deleted by request]

Who are the posters that need more 'protection' btw...if anybody has been unduly offended/upset beyond the usual indignation because of others actions, then certainly it needs addressing. As far as iam aware, nobody is being unfairly targeted (outside of those who ASK for such treatment).

You are always going to get a bit of 'ribbing' 'banter' 'hearty disagreement' call it what you will....

In truth, if you are offended by the kind of mildly abrasive statements, along the lines that you have mentioned. Then you deserve to be debating issues in no such place as a public arena. Will always happen. Fact.

The area of concern that interested me is where you say....'protection' - Its one thing if you are able enough to dish it, then you should be man enough to take some back. However, if we are talking about a more sinister level of 'insult' then, it goes without saying...we all act upon it as and when and where appropriate. Such as in this instance for example. But there is only so much you can do to alleviate/release the pressure as an arbitrary faction amongst those who will be determined to set and follow their own agenda against the greater integrity of the forum as a whole. You cannot turn water into wine. Somewhere along the line this has to be addressed by the parties involved, by their own conscience.

Distinction is clear between labelling someone's view as 'idiotic, cr@p or invalid' against personal insults that go beyond the acceptable. unless you are part and parcel of the whole blame process and you willingly fling such abuse around - you then WILL get offended by it.

No brainer. If you wish it to stop - then one of them HAS, to back down first. Simple.

As far as I know the people I was referring to (I will name them in PM BUT HAVE NO INTENTION OF NAMING THEM IN OPEN FORUM) have never retaliated in kind. So they have not been dishing it out, just stating their views which go against the popular held views of the forum. Asking for it?

Maybe they are quite happy to be seen as "the alternative voice" and to take the abuse they are subjected to, I have never asked them and have no intention of doing so.

It was never my intention to make a big thing out of the protection issue. It was just how I see it.

The main focus of my post was supposed to be about the way we all behave, and how we can improve the forum. I have tried over the last few months to refrain from flame wars and with one exception I have been reasonably successful (He was later banned BTW) but I admit I am no saint 

A lot obviously depends on who is giving the abuse and your feelings about that poster. For example, when Lando insults me, because I know (hope) its friendly banter from Lando I don't take offence, someone else throwing the same insults would get a reaction.

In truth, if you are offended by the kind of mildly abrasive statements, along the lines that you have mentioned. Then you deserve to be debating issues in no such place as a public arena. Will always happen. Fact.

I honestly believe that there is no need for personal insults at all and once you as MODs start to accept them it becomes ever more difficult as to where you draw the line.

I am not saying give out cards, but a quick word in PM would save things escalating and save peoples "face".

As I said I don't want to make a big thing out of the protection thing but I think everyone knows that a certain amount of "bullying" has gone on here at least since I first joined the forum. (and no I didn't start it)

I am not a Mod and I don't want to be one. If I was I would probably be the worst MOD we have ever had. So I am glad its your problem at the end of the day not mine.

[red37]

I am not saying give out cards, but a quick word in PM would save things escalating and save peoples "face".

That is my first response. Always has been. Then again Iam not holding my integrity up for debate here. It is in any case the sensible thing to do.

Like i said. If you are willing to be a part of an institution that promotes the idea of offering differing opinions on a given subject. You have to be pre-armed with the right tools for it. Nobody will be your samaritan, you are not going to earn points for becoming a 'martyr' in the process neither. There are no repurcussions beyond those that are dealt out accordingly for rule breakers. You have a voice - you are entitled for it to be aired (whether or not it holds weight upon the audience it is intended to enlighten).

Industrial language and banter are shoe ins for a public forum. Insult and abuse however, are not necessarily tolerated as a byproduct. That sentiment could not be any clearer. And until the 'said' offended report such actions - nothing CAN be done about it with any true meaningful resolution. You see.

Its all well and good 'sticking up' for your virtual mates etc....or rallying their cause. I applaud that. No problem at all.

But somewhere along the lines you have to look down betwixt your legs and ask yourself...."am i equipped to deal with this" Against the quite obvious fact of.."Perhaps if i don't go around making a fool of myself, or deliberately antagonising folk - there wouldn't BE a problem in the first place". Simple philosophy for a generation that seems to preclude the utterly fundamental principle of putting their Brains into gear before opening their respective gobs. It might well serve them to adapt.

[Bad Bob]

I honestly believe that there is no need for personal insults at all and once you as MODs start to accept them it becomes ever more difficult as to where you draw the line.

I am not saying give out cards, but a quick word in PM would save things escalating and save peoples "face".

A fair point in theory, mate, but the reality is that we are (almost) all adults on here and it shouldn't take Mods to tell someone not to insult people.  We tried to be more interventionist when we first signed up and it did have a certain degree of success.  But, having a quiet word via PM for every insult dished on here is:

1) Far too time consuming (verges on the impossible on match days)

2) A bit too klinkish

That second point is important because some of the rucks on here are what make this place great.  If they are undertaken in the right spirit, the banter can be quite enjoyable.  None of us Mods are lily white and we all were involved in more than a few spats in our time before becoming Mods so we, I think correctly, worried that cracking down on each and every barbed comment would violate the spirit of this place before too long.  We even had several comments to that effect early days.  So, we've tried to take a more relaxed approach since then.  Perhaps too relaxed, as it turns out. 

But, moderating only works when people are willing to be moderated.  If posters don't respect our decisions, how can we operate?  I gave Peewee a legitimate card a while back and was abused publicly and privately for it for weeks.  I've been called names, had my integrity questioned and have received a series of jibes about everything from my wealth to whether I go to matches or not.  Yet, I'm supposed to put all that to one side when Peewee reports a Lando post?  I'm supposed to spring to his defense despite the fact that I have received nothing but stick and abuse from him in my short time as a Mod?  Nah, the phrase "you made your bed..." springs to mind.  Apparently that makes me a weak Mod but I too am only human.

Too right you wouldn't want to be a Mod, mate, because some of the people you have to deal with on here will do your head in.

[dawson99]

edit

maybe some people think what i wrote was harsh. all im saying is that being a mod is tough. but if you are a mod you need to be tough.

personally i think anyone who agres to be amod deserves a sainthood as its THE hardest job. but if you cant do it, dont do it.

and those who do do it, do it.

and thanks for doing it or else no one would do it and it would be anarchy.

[account deleted by request]

As I said they haven't complained to me and I havent spoken to them about it, so maybe they have the tools to deal with it. My argument is they shouldn't have to deal with it. Why should it be acceptable to say something on a forum that half of them wouldn't have the balls to say face to face?

I don't think anyone including myself is complaining about industrial language or banter.

I try and treat everyone with respect, I often fail but I do try.

And until the 'said' offended report such actions - nothing CAN be done about it with any true meaningful resolution. You see.

No mate, I don't see. Why can a Mod not see an offensive post and be pro-active about it, why do you have to wait till someone "goes running to the mods" before taking action. Obviously if you don't see it or you don't consider it offensive thats one thing, but many times a MOD posts underneath or on the same page as an abusive post, without comment.

.."Perhaps if i don't go around making a fool of myself, or deliberately antagonising folk - there wouldn't BE a problem in the first place".

Hopefully this comment is not aimed in my direction? So you are saying that if someone has a view that differs from the popular one they are being deliberately antagonistic and causing problems?

Maybe we should just stick to "In Rafa we trust" and have interesting debates about how great Alonso is ?

Its the different viewpoints that make the site, not everyone singing off the same hymn book.

[Leonmc0708]

And until the 'said' offended report such actions - nothing CAN be done about it with any true meaningful resolution. You see.

No mate, I don't see. Why can a Mod not see an offensive post and be pro-active about it, why do you have to wait till someone "goes running to the mods" before taking action. Obviously if you don't see it or you don't consider it offensive thats one thing, but many times a MOD posts underneath or on the same page as an abusive post, without comment.

What I read that to mean (and I will stand corrected if need be) was that who are we to say what offends people and what does not ?

Its overkill for us to start making the rules on whats offensive and whats not. If we as mods do this then this place will end up like certain other LFC forums that are square as fu.ck.

For instance, I get called a fatty, to me thats water off a ducks back, to someone who is unhappy with the way they look and not so confident - maybe someone who is depressed with their appearence - that could be the most hurtful thing in the World.

When do you step in ?

[account deleted by request]

I honestly believe that there is no need for personal insults at all and once you as MODs start to accept them it becomes ever more difficult as to where you draw the line.

I am not saying give out cards, but a quick word in PM would save things escalating and save peoples "face".

A fair point in theory, mate, but the reality is that we are (almost) all adults on here and it shouldn't take Mods to tell someone not to insult people.  We tried to be more interventionist when we first signed up and it did have a certain degree of success.  But, having a quiet word via PM for every insult dished on here is:

1) Far too time consuming (verges on the impossible on match days)

2) A bit too klinkish

That second point is important because some of the rucks on here are what make this place great.  If they are undertaken in the right spirit, the banter can be quite enjoyable.  None of us Mods are lily white and we all were involved in more than a few spats in our time before becoming Mods so we, I think correctly, worried that cracking down on each and every barbed comment would violate the spirit of this place before too long.  We even had several comments to that effect early days.  So, we've tried to take a more relaxed approach since then.  Perhaps too relaxed, as it turns out. 

But, moderating only works when people are willing to be moderated.  If posters don't respect our decisions, how can we operate?  I gave Peewee a legitimate card a while back and was abused publicly and privately for it for weeks.  I've been called names, had my integrity questioned and have received a series of jibes about everything from my wealth to whether I go to matches or not.  Yet, I'm supposed to put all that to one side when Peewee reports a Lando post?  I'm supposed to spring to his defense despite the fact that I have received nothing but stick and abuse from him in my short time as a Mod?  Nah, the phrase "you made your bed..." springs to mind.  Apparently that makes me a weak Mod but I too am only human.

Too right you wouldn't want to be a Mod, mate, because some of the people you have to deal with on here will do your head in.

All fair points Bob, but I wasn't talking about spats (apart from Lando and PEEWEE) the point that seems to have been picked up on is the "protection" one for some reason.

The people who I am talking about haven't responded in kind, haven't hit back, so it would be bit of a onesided spat mate.

Where cards are concerned, if you give a card and get abuse, you shouldn't hesitate to give them another (easier said than done mate I know)

You are doing us a favour by taking on the role, you should do it as you think right and if we don't like it we can always moan about you in PM   

[Sabre]

Well if you do the job, do the job. And that means Bad Bob that you don't have to bear with insults. If the fúcker insists, card. If he doesn't get the message, card. If he persists, ban. With 2 cojones or , with no doubt. Quite simply you don't have to live with the amount of shít you read just because some people decide they rule how this forum should work, that is, they ask light moderation for their abuses, but quick intervention and a lot of reporting of posts when they find someone is a wum or must be banned. That is, they won't give a fúck about moderation or so they say, but they tell the mods what to do, when and how.

If people want to tell the mods what to do, then let them be a mod. If they don't want to be a mod --because they're clever-- then respect the job they're doing. For the record I'm satisfied with the moderation of every current mod, and that includes the mod that isn't my favourite flavour. THey've all done a good job, and they must be respected.

I know what's going on as a mod Bad Bob and you have all my support. I particularly like a lot Red37' approach of neutrality and don't using cards unless necessary, but there is a MINIMUM RESPECT that must be shown to the mods, and those shouldn't allow to be insulted. They don't have to be insulted, and they don't need to be insulted. They only DESERVE the right to be able to talk about football without those attacks.

It's a pity that a guy like Bad Bob, that what has done here in 98% of the time is talking about football has to read what he's been reading.

As for the original post of Bigmick, it's a good call. I know there are people who doesn't like me, but some of them stick to football and keep the spats or their personal opinions in private. They see the big picture that the forum is about all the liverpool fans, not about how we get a long a few members. I do the same thing with them. And that's the approach Lando and Peewee should take. Dislike each other if they like, but keeping a minimum decorum in the boards that are read by everybody.