Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:29 pm

As we approach the transfer window once again and anticipate what signings our own club and our rivals will make, I wonder whether Premiership clubs are underusing the German league when identifying targets.

Over the years there have been comparitively much fewer transfers to the Premiership from Germany than there have been from the French, Spanish and even Italian leagues. Off the top of my head I can think of Hamann, Ballack, Berbatov, Rosicky, Lehmann, Santa Cruz, Pizzaro, Klinsmann, Pienaar, Berger and Riedle as some of the higher profile players to make the switch. What strikes me is the majority of those players made a quick adaption to the Premiership. Perhaps Ballack and Pizzaro have yet to reach the form they showed in Germany and perhaps Riedle was past his best, but the rest either had pretty successful careers here or are currently flourishing. Of course you also get your flops - Sean Dundee anyone? And the jury's still out on Voronin imo. But my point is that these players perhaps adapt better to the Premiership better than those from other leagues.

I have watched some of the German football on Setanta this season, and while overall the league is not the same standard as the Premiership, the teams are all physical, most of the football is pretty direct and the game far more resembles English football than that seen in any of the other top European leagues.

So are Premiership teams neglecting a potentially very successful resource? I think they just might be. Without claiming to be a German football expert (far from it), I reckon there are several players in the Bundeslige that could be great buys for us or other Premiership teams. Diego is a class player, Van der Vaart and Kompany are good players and there are half a dozen top quality players in the Bayern team. I'm sure there are plenty more too. And not to say I told you so, but way before Spurs signed Berbatov I suggested we take him based on his performances for Leverkusen. For some reason I think some of the top players in the German league seem to fly under the radar of some of Premiership clubs. Partly I think it's just more fashionable these days to shop French or Spanish, but I'd like us to take a closer look at the German league in the near future.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:47 pm

A really good post mate. The only reasons I can think that we haven't seen more German players over here is that like the English, they are quite happy in their own league and country and most don't really want the big move abroad. As an example, half the players you named as coming from the German league arn't actually German, but just played there.

Certainly they have a lot of very good players, but I can't think of a German manager thats made it (or even failed)in the prem either. Strangely a lot of German players seem to go to the USA in the twilight of their careers.

As for the foreign players in the German league like Diego, Vander Vaart etc, I agree that its strange that so few have come here , maybe because there are no German managers or managers from Germany over here to set the trend?

by **JC_81** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:04 pm

Fair points s@int. I agree, German players do seem to have a similar mentality to English ones in that they're quite happy to stay in their own league, and yeah a fair amount of the players I mentioned were foreigners playing in Germany rather than German players. There are actually plenty of foreigners playing in Germany, and I think that if they are able to adapt well to that league, then there is more chance of them being able to adapt to the Premiership and it is maybe something we could take advantage of more.

On the German players though, you'd think that the money in the Premiership might attract a fair few more over these days. I can see why the English players are happy to stay put, because they probably won't get paid better abroad unless they're at one of the top, top teams. Plus, the Premiership gets aired all over the world so there's the fame and recognition that comes with it these days. That's why I thought it may be more a matter of the German players not being approached by English clubs that often, rather than them just not being keen to leave the Bundeslige. Probably a bit of both.

Your other point (on German managers), is one I meant to mention myself. It also struck me that there have been no German managers in England that I can think of. That may also be a reason why we don't see too many players coming here from the Bundeslige - because the managers here maybe don't have such a knowledge of the German leagues, and are more familiar with the English/French/Spanish markets. Maybe if we saw a Klinsmann or someone of that ilk coming to the Premiership, we'd see a few more guys coming in from that league (for the record I am not suggesting that LFC try to get Klinsmann in - for me it would be crazy to hire a guy with no club management experience!).

by **neil** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:48 pm

berti vogts?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:48 pm

It would seem that the Bundesliga is underutilised as a source of talent for EPL clubs, although I wouldn't say it's pursued any less as a source of talent than say the Eredivisie for example.

However, the reasons for this apparent lack of interest are plentiful, IMHO.

I think the point about German managers is valid.

I think familiarity with the market significantly influences where managers choose to source players from. Rafa invariably looks to the Spanish market, he knows the market, he has contacts in Spain, and he knows he can get value for money. I think to a fair extent the top managers who have arrived from abroad have generally set the trend, which continues now. I'm thinking of Wenger, Houllier (Ok, not a top manager, but he continued the trend of looking to France for players), Mourinho, and also as a side note - Carlos Queiroz. I reckon he played a significant role in the signings of Ronaldo, Anderson and Nani - again due to familiarity with the market.

Another reason is that I don't think there is an abundance of attacking talent in the Bundesliga;

If we have the base of physicality, organisation and hard work already here, clubs in the EPL mainly look abroad for that bit of flair. I don't see an abundance of flair in Germany.

Off the top of my head I can think of Klose, Van der vaart, Diego, Podolski and Schweinsteiger.

That's about as far as I get when thinking of players who may be considered good enough and quality enough to supplement what we already have.

Also, players who do succeed are generally snapped up by Bayern. Once there, they are very difficult to prise away.

For every successful and highly talented player there is in the Bundesliga, Bayern are always the first club to get a snif. For EPL clubs, they are almost always going to have to compete with Bayern, who command immense clout over the German market. I would imagine some EPL clubs would want better value for money than they would get if Bayern became interested.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:57 pm

neil wrote:berti vogts?

Yes, he's probably one of the reasons why there are no German managers in the prem

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:12 pm

LFC2007 wrote:It would seem that the Bundesliga is underutilised as a source of talent for EPL clubs, although I wouldn't say it's pursued any less as a source of talent than say the Eredivisie for example.

However, the reasons for this apparent lack of interest are plentiful, IMHO.

I think the point about German managers is valid.

I think familiarity with the market significantly influences where managers choose to source players from. Rafa invariably looks to the Spanish market, he knows the market, he has contacts in Spain, and he knows he can get value for money. I think to a fair extent the top managers who have arrived from abroad have generally set the trend, which continues now. I'm thinking of Wenger, Houllier (Ok, not a top manager, but he continued the trend of looking to France for players), Mourinho, and also as a side note - Carlos Queiroz. I reckon he played a significant role in the signings of Ronaldo, Anderson and Nani - again due to familiarity with the market.

Another reason is that I don't think there is an abundance of attacking talent in the Bundesliga;

If we have the base of physicality, organisation and hard work already here, clubs in the EPL mainly look abroad for that bit of flair. I don't see an abundance of flair in Germany.

Off the top of my head I can think of Klose, Van der vaart, Diego, Podolski and Schweinsteiger.

That's about as far as I get when thinking of players who may be considered good enough and quality enough to supplement what we already have.

Also, players who do succeed are generally snapped up by Bayern. Once there, they are very difficult to prise away.

For every successful and highly talented player there is in the Bundesliga, Bayern are always the first club to get a snif. For EPL clubs, they are almost always going to have to compete with Bayern, who command immense clout over the German market. I would imagine some EPL clubs would want better value for money than they would get if Bayern became interested.

Some good points there--particularly about the strangle-hold Bayern has on top German talent.

I also liked the point about the flair players but I would think that German defenders still have some allure for Premiership clubs. Personally, I wouldn't mind us having a dip for Per Mertesaker (spelling?), for instance. The top German defenders seem to be in the Agger mold--can handle the no-nonsense, physical play in England but also have ability with the ball at their feet.

by **JC_81** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:42 pm

LFC2007 wrote:It would seem that the Bundesliga is underutilised as a source of talent for EPL clubs, although I wouldn't say it's pursued any less as a source of talent than say the Eredivisie for example.

However, the reasons for this apparent lack of interest are plentiful, IMHO.

I think the point about German managers is valid.

I think familiarity with the market significantly influences where managers choose to source players from. Rafa invariably looks to the Spanish market, he knows the market, he has contacts in Spain, and he knows he can get value for money. I think to a fair extent the top managers who have arrived from abroad have generally set the trend, which continues now. I'm thinking of Wenger, Houllier (Ok, not a top manager, but he continued the trend of looking to France for players), Mourinho, and also as a side note - Carlos Queiroz. I reckon he played a significant role in the signings of Ronaldo, Anderson and Nani - again due to familiarity with the market.

Another reason is that I don't think there is an abundance of attacking talent in the Bundesliga;

If we have the base of physicality, organisation and hard work already here, clubs in the EPL mainly look abroad for that bit of flair. I don't see an abundance of flair in Germany.

Off the top of my head I can think of Klose, Van der vaart, Diego, Podolski and Schweinsteiger.

That's about as far as I get when thinking of players who may be considered good enough and quality enough to supplement what we already have.

Also, players who do succeed are generally snapped up by Bayern. Once there, they are very difficult to prise away.

For every successful and highly talented player there is in the Bundesliga, Bayern are always the first club to get a snif. For EPL clubs, they are almost always going to have to compete with Bayern, who command immense clout over the German market. I would imagine some EPL clubs would want better value for money than they would get if Bayern became interested.

Some decent points mate, I would struggle to add to your list of flair players from the Bundeslige, with the exception of Ribery and Toni who went to Bayern recently and another Bremen striker whose name escapes me. I also liked that Salihamidic that Bayern had - don't know if he's still there. However, we're probably naive to think that there aren't more good attacking players in that league that we just aren't familiar with. I'd guess none of us are experts on the German league or follow it all that closely. For example, Ballack wasn't well known outside Germany until he was in his late 20's. Now I'm not suggesting that there are several other Michael Ballacks out there waiting to be signed, but it's more than likely that there is talent out there that could be spotted.

It's probably fair to say that Bayern do have a hold over certain players and they'll favour a move there rather than abroad, but do Premiership clubs really fight that hard for these players. Ballack, Podolski and Klose all made their reputations at other clubs in Germany, but I can't remember any Premiership clubs breaking their necks to sign these players back then. This basically points towards the fact that Bayern probably identify these talents a lot earlier than clubs over here - therefore it brings us back to the point that perhaps if there were more German managers in England with a better knowledge of these leagues, we'd probably see more transfers.

On the other hand, what's to stop us scouting the German leagues ourselves? In fact it seems we are - with the signing of Marvin Pourie to the Academy from Dortmund (who looks a very good player by the way). Maybe in time we will pick up more youngsters from Germany. I still can't help feel however that Premiership clubs don't make the most of the German league when looking for talent, although I accept that there are an abundance of reasons why we don't see so many transfers between the leagues.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:35 am

I'd assume that German clubs are probably more stubborn when it comes to negotiating transfers for their best players also.

For me though, it's really a combination of three reasons;

1) A lack of talent, particularly players with a bit of flair, who would improve upon what is already here. I've just had a flick through the squad lists of six or seven Bundesliga sides, including the most notable teams - I'm no expert on German football but I do know a fair few of the names from International football and there does appear to be a real lack of quality there. If anything, I'd fancy one or two of the defenders e.g. Bordon, Meira, Mertesacker, Kompany.

2) There isn't really a trend towards signing players from Germany. Initiating a trend generally begins at the top, i.e. from the top four clubs - this may happen in the future in a different cycle. French, Spanish, and African players suit the trend better at the moment - for various reasons.

3) Bayern dictate the market to a large extent. Even if English clubs were to take a keener interest, assuming they don't already, Bayern have their ear firmly to the ground as they know they haven't the financial clout to compete in the European market on the same level as most top European clubs. Germany isn't as an attractive league as it once was. Spain and England are at the forefront now.

As another side note, I don't think Podolski wanted to move outside of Germany, Bayern presented him with the opportunity to continue his development in an environment familiar to him. He was only 21 (I think) when he left Cologne.

On Ballack, he had a successful spell with Leverkusen, then Bayern snapped him up. I imagine he probably wanted to join Bayern, and Bayern probably earmarked him quite early on - given the reason above concerning their inability to compete with the very best players on the European market. It's also a bit like England - how often do top quality centre mid's appear here? The best clubs in that league earmark them straight away. This happens in Italy and Spain also.

They've managed to sign a few quality players in recent times, e.g. Ribery, Toni, Van Bommell. This was, I'm sure, partly down to the fact that they sold Hargreaves - he released significant funds. They will always be able to spend a fair bit due to their attendances, and they are still a massive club, but not on the same level as most top European clubs.

by **stmichael** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:52 am

it's surprising in a way that fc hamburg have two of the hottest young prospects in europe in vincent kompany and rafael van der vaart. both were linked with premiership clubs during their time in holland but opted to move to germany.

on a general scale, it's noticeable how the majority of german internationals play in germany and this has had a positive effect on their national side. compare this to the farce that is england for example.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:07 pm

stmichael wrote:on a general scale, it's noticeable how the majority of german internationals play in germany and this has had a positive effect on their national side. compare this to the farce that is england for example.

but most england internationals play in england too... it's the mentality such as the club above the country and not having won anything since 66 that is partly to blame... and also of course the incompetence of recent england managers...

good posts above...

I do think that the Bundeslige is under utilised and all the players mentioned above by others I would love to see play for us such as diego, van der vaart, mertesacker... seriously rafa should really look into them...

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