The Alonso Thread - hands in transfer request

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Postby heimdall » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:20 pm

sworth26 wrote:I have a funny feeling he is going to stay, perhaps not beacuse he wants to but because Rafa is (rightly) digging in his heels and they have now spent so much they are trying to be frugle in the latter stages of the window.  If he does stay, and I hope he does, I think he will contiune to show the form he did last season and will be rewarded with a new contact.  He has every right to look for a move elsewhere after the debarcle last season but, should he stay, I think he will realise he is at the right club and will part of the core team for the next 3-4 years.

Or maybe he will be gone within 48 hours  :D

I hope he goes, I'd rather have Negredo, Sneijder and Silva.  :D
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:34 pm

aCe' wrote:
Sabre wrote:
I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.


His Diagonal balls are great to see and easy to control, but what I'll miss most is his brain's speed, because it's rare, and because the diagonal balls have been often wasted in the boots of Kuyt, Babel, Riise or Pennant. He knows what to do with the ball he's going to receive and he chooses the right pass within the options at a lightning speed.

That speed of his football brain is what makes me smile when a poster I don't want to remember mentions Barry and he says that he's closer to the strikers.... and he's more mobile... and he scores more goals.... and a lot of suspension points like that that still make him a player worth of 10M less because he hasn't that speed nor right criteria to select the first passes (even if he is more than a good player). A crucial moment in football that, and it's the kind of ability that you see and you think ah!, so easy, so logical, that's what you should expect anyway, but you get it rarely.

I don't think we'll mis his range shots much, despite he has the technical ability for it, and the oppositions are aware of it, he hasn't given us much in that front in his hell in Liverpool.

I'd better leave this post now, because the more I write the more livid I am to see him playing in white. I still think that Liverpool and Rafa should be very firm about this and if we don't get enough money, we should make Alonso stay. Nobody put a gun on Alonso's head when he signed his 5 year contract, and we have to defend our interests like Ferguson did, like O'Neil did, like Valencia has with Villa, and like everybody does.

Ill leave the Alonso W*nk part for someone else to comment on but the one thing i didnt get was the Barry part...
Im admittedly one of the many posters around here who seems to think that Barry would offer more mobility than Alonso ever did, would offer more of a dirct attacking threat, would get on the baller higher up the pitch (closer to the strikers as you put it)...etc etc
Does that make Barry the better player ? no it doesnt .. again, just means they have different styles of playing the role...
Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest... Barry is far from a sluggish slow player who takes forever to pick a pass and lacks in creativity..etc etc.. Barry probably has more goals and assists to his name in the last couple of seasons than Alonso does in his entire career.. so theres a point to be made about directly comparing their contributions to the side in such specific terms...
Whats a first pass anyways ? a pass when under pressure ? or just a normal pass ? theres no doubt Alonso has the better passing range of the two players... probably better at deciding about the best pass available too but then again.. do that make him a better player than any other midfielder who's inferior to him in that department? i dont think so...

Bottom line is... Barry offers thing that Alonso never will... 16 goals and 17 assists in the last couple of seasons to be specific.. Alonso on the other hand has attributes to his game that no many other players possess... personally i'd take Alonso ahead of Barry every day of the week but i wouldnt over exaggerate the difference in quality between the two...
about the 10mill thing... well Benitez didnt see things that way last season now did he ?! Try to offload Alonso to add a few mill to that to finance Barry or did we all just forget that ?!     :oh:

Good post Ace.

It always amazes me when someone is so bigheaded as to try to rate a player they have hardly seen, especially after they made such a disasterous appraisal of Torres.

Barry is a good player who could have offered something different to our side. That chance has now gone now, so we move on.

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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:50 pm

aCe' wrote:my point was that our valuation of him doesnt reflect his quality.. for 35mill, you'd quite honestly expect the player to be one of the best in the world in his position...

Ahh, but this is to suggest that transfer fees are primarily based on objective assessments of relative quality.  I don't think they are.  For instance, many English players are transferred for inflated figures in the English market relative to their overall quality because they are English.  To take another example, while few would argue that Ronaldo and Kaka are among the top five players in the world, many would say that their transfer fees were substantially over-inflated.  Is Ronaldo the player worth 80 million pounds or is it Ronaldo the money-spinning commodity that drives the transfer fee?

So, if we are just talking about a straight up 'fair' value for Alonso based on his footballing quality, relative to similar players, I might agree that 35 million pounds is a bit steep.  But, when you factor in all the other parameters at play here (the ones I listed in the other post), I think it's a reasonable valuation to make.

BTW, just to revisit the idea of Madrid's 'cheekiness' for a minute (raised earlier by Nan), I think there are grounds to take that stance.  As St. Mike has pointed out, Madrid have had a massive hand in overheating the market this summer with their unfettered spending and, in that context, can have absolutely no complaints when we ask 35 million pounds for Alonso.  To expect to get one of our top players for a price well below our asking price after setting the conditions for a summer of inflated transfers IS cheeky and thats why I completely support our bit of gamesmanship when we let their offer expire without comment.  If they want to pull out all the stops to sign Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema more power to them but, when it comes to signing Alonso, it's our job to ensure they won't be having it all their own way.
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Postby metalhead » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:54 pm

s@int wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Sabre wrote:
I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.


His Diagonal balls are great to see and easy to control, but what I'll miss most is his brain's speed, because it's rare, and because the diagonal balls have been often wasted in the boots of Kuyt, Babel, Riise or Pennant. He knows what to do with the ball he's going to receive and he chooses the right pass within the options at a lightning speed.

That speed of his football brain is what makes me smile when a poster I don't want to remember mentions Barry and he says that he's closer to the strikers.... and he's more mobile... and he scores more goals.... and a lot of suspension points like that that still make him a player worth of 10M less because he hasn't that speed nor right criteria to select the first passes (even if he is more than a good player). A crucial moment in football that, and it's the kind of ability that you see and you think ah!, so easy, so logical, that's what you should expect anyway, but you get it rarely.

I don't think we'll mis his range shots much, despite he has the technical ability for it, and the oppositions are aware of it, he hasn't given us much in that front in his hell in Liverpool.

I'd better leave this post now, because the more I write the more livid I am to see him playing in white. I still think that Liverpool and Rafa should be very firm about this and if we don't get enough money, we should make Alonso stay. Nobody put a gun on Alonso's head when he signed his 5 year contract, and we have to defend our interests like Ferguson did, like O'Neil did, like Valencia has with Villa, and like everybody does.

Ill leave the Alonso W*nk part for someone else to comment on but the one thing i didnt get was the Barry part...
Im admittedly one of the many posters around here who seems to think that Barry would offer more mobility than Alonso ever did, would offer more of a dirct attacking threat, would get on the baller higher up the pitch (closer to the strikers as you put it)...etc etc
Does that make Barry the better player ? no it doesnt .. again, just means they have different styles of playing the role...
Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest... Barry is far from a sluggish slow player who takes forever to pick a pass and lacks in creativity..etc etc.. Barry probably has more goals and assists to his name in the last couple of seasons than Alonso does in his entire career.. so theres a point to be made about directly comparing their contributions to the side in such specific terms...
Whats a first pass anyways ? a pass when under pressure ? or just a normal pass ? theres no doubt Alonso has the better passing range of the two players... probably better at deciding about the best pass available too but then again.. do that make him a better player than any other midfielder who's inferior to him in that department? i dont think so...

Bottom line is... Barry offers thing that Alonso never will... 16 goals and 17 assists in the last couple of seasons to be specific.. Alonso on the other hand has attributes to his game that no many other players possess... personally i'd take Alonso ahead of Barry every day of the week but i wouldnt over exaggerate the difference in quality between the two...
about the 10mill thing... well Benitez didnt see things that way last season now did he ?! Try to offload Alonso to add a few mill to that to finance Barry or did we all just forget that ?!     :oh:

Good post Ace.

It always amazes me when someone is so bigheaded as to try to rate a player they have hardly seen, especially after they made such a disasterous appraisal of Torres.

Barry is a good player who could have offered something different to our side. That chance has now gone now, so we move on.

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Postby GYBS » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:30 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:my point was that our valuation of him doesnt reflect his quality.. for 35mill, you'd quite honestly expect the player to be one of the best in the world in his position...

Ahh, but this is to suggest that transfer fees are primarily based on objective assessments of relative quality.  I don't think they are.  For instance, many English players are transferred for inflated figures in the English market relative to their overall quality because they are English.  To take another example, while few would argue that Ronaldo and Kaka are among the top five players in the world, many would say that their transfer fees were substantially over-inflated.  Is Ronaldo the player worth 80 million pounds or is it Ronaldo the money-spinning commodity that drives the transfer fee?

So, if we are just talking about a straight up 'fair' value for Alonso based on his footballing quality, relative to similar players, I might agree that 35 million pounds is a bit steep.  But, when you factor in all the other parameters at play here (the ones I listed in the other post), I think it's a reasonable valuation to make.

BTW, just to revisit the idea of Madrid's 'cheekiness' for a minute (raised earlier by Nan), I think there are grounds to take that stance.  As St. Mike has pointed out, Madrid have had a massive hand in overheating the market this summer with their unfettered spending and, in that context, can have absolutely no complaints when we ask 35 million pounds for Alonso.  To expect to get one of our top players for a price well below our asking price after setting the conditions for a summer of inflated transfers IS cheeky and thats why I completely support our bit of gamesmanship when we let their offer expire without comment.  If they want to pull out all the stops to sign Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema more power to them but, when it comes to signing Alonso, it's our job to ensure they won't be having it all their own way.

Thats a great post Bob as our your others - why should we under value one of our own players . Rafa obviously rates Xabi highly hence the price he has named and i dont blame him one bit as i think overall he is worth that amount - even more so when you consider that carrick went for 20 mil,hargreaves 20 mil all a couple of years ago and with prices going up then i think 35ish million is  a fair price to pay for a world class midfielder . If madrid dont want to pay that much then obviously they dont rate him as highly as we do and he can stay with us and continue being in a superior team being a world class player and challenging for trophies.
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:
Greavesie wrote:that Perez has been mouthing off again this morning, or was it Pellegrini, either way whoever said it said he wants Alonso

Well they need to come up with the readies then dont they,

An if i was Xabi now id be havin second thought about goin there , obviosly Madrid dont think hes worth what were asking and are  being fecking cheeky with there valuation of him , I remember them saying a few weeks ago that they wanted him but he wasnt a priority big money signing , Well we think he is , so as i said if they want him make the cheeky g.ets pay

i dont think Madrid are being cheeky with their valuation and bids tbh.... i think we're asking a little too much if the 35mill rumours are to be believed... obviously we're trying to throw off any interest in him by placing such a price tag on him in the first place and if the Madrid move doesnt go through it would be us pricing him out of a move rather than Madrid not wanting him bad enough imo...
Alonso comes across as a sensible fella im sure he'd realize that Madrid probably feel that it wouldnt be good business paying 30+mill for a player who quite honestly isnt worth that much..
Wouldnt be happy if we payed 50mill for Silva, wouldnt be happy if we had payed 20+mill for Barry last season, probably wouldt have wanted to sign Alonso for 30+mill if he played for someone else either...

I disagree that we're asking too much for him.  Given his importance to the side, given the instability that losing a top player would bring, given the ever-shortening timeframe to bring in a replacement and given the fact that Real Madrid and Manchester City have helped inflate the market--the same market we'd need to shop in to buy a replacement--I think making them fork over that kind of money is reasonable.  If they don't value him that highly, fair enough.  They can retract their bid and he can stay with us.  The bottom line is that he's currently worth more to us than he is to them.  We can moan about them lowballing us with cheeky bids and they can moan about us pricing him out of a move with an inflated valuation but, at the end of the day, our different valuations reflect the difference in Xabi's importance to both sides.

Totally agree... what they're doing is really detrimental to our preseason preparations... in fact if I were Rafa I would tell Real for every day that passes from now on the value for Xabi will increase by 250k... that should make them fork out or feck off...
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Postby Toffeehater » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:35 pm

bavlondon wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:
Greavesie wrote:that Perez has been mouthing off again this morning, or was it Pellegrini, either way whoever said it said he wants Alonso

Well they need to come up with the readies then dont they,

An if i was Xabi now id be havin second thought about goin there , obviosly Madrid dont think hes worth what were asking and are  being fecking cheeky with there valuation of him , I remember them saying a few weeks ago that they wanted him but he wasnt a priority big money signing , Well we think he is , so as i said if they want him make the cheeky g.ets pay

If you were Xabi you wouldn't want to go in the first place.  :D

But to be fair the things which prompted Xabi to want to go are still there anyway so I don't see how the situation will have changed.

Also Ace ys the valuation might be high but so were the valuations of Benzema, Ronaldo and Kaka. We are doing nothing different to how other teams have negotiated with Madrid and the fact that Xabi has 3 years still on his contract only puts the ball in our court. So either Madrid cough up or feck off.

When do we have to name our players for the CL by? It's probably a bit later this year as we go straight in the group stages but if I were Rafa I would make sure I made Xabi aware he is going to be the first on the list. That way we will see if he really does want to stay or go.

Good post and i full agree
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Postby mistyred » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:43 pm

Let the man go FFS, obviously he wants to play elsewhere otherwise he would say so. DUH..

Yes he's signed a contract, but he is fed up with trying to be sold like a prossie to every Tom Dick and Harry.

To be quite honest i don't really care anymore.
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:50 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Nando26 wrote:Also why do some people on here write whole chapters everytime they need to make a point

simplify ddduuuddeeeeessssss  :D

Short posts are like your avatar, you start showing what you want others to see, but you don't do your job completely.

:D

Delighted to see the return of some interesting football analysis.  I think Mick's made lots of compelling points about Alonso's game which, for me, begs the question of what we'll lose if he goes?  That is, having discussed the reasons behind his dip in form, can we next delve deeper into just what he brought to the side when on form as a way of getting at what we won't necessarily have at our disposal if he heads to Madrid?

I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.

From what we've seen last season, Xabi is very very crucial if we want to play Gerrard and Torres up front. I believe Xabi and Gerrard/Torres partnership have a mutualism going on. Xabi plays well because the opponents need to keep an eye out on Gerrard and Torres. At the same time Gerrard and Torres are this dangerous because Xabi plays well... I'm gonna stick my neck in now and say that if Xabi leaves, the Gerrard/Torres partnership will lose its teeth. To a certain extent anyway. So if Xabi leaves, there are two things we can do, find a player who can pass as well and as intelligent as Xabi to continue with the Gerrard/Torres partnership or change the system.
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Postby Sabre » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:10 pm

s@int wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Sabre wrote:
I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.


His Diagonal balls are great to see and easy to control, but what I'll miss most is his brain's speed, because it's rare, and because the diagonal balls have been often wasted in the boots of Kuyt, Babel, Riise or Pennant. He knows what to do with the ball he's going to receive and he chooses the right pass within the options at a lightning speed.

That speed of his football brain is what makes me smile when a poster I don't want to remember mentions Barry and he says that he's closer to the strikers.... and he's more mobile... and he scores more goals.... and a lot of suspension points like that that still make him a player worth of 10M less because he hasn't that speed nor right criteria to select the first passes (even if he is more than a good player). A crucial moment in football that, and it's the kind of ability that you see and you think ah!, so easy, so logical, that's what you should expect anyway, but you get it rarely.

I don't think we'll mis his range shots much, despite he has the technical ability for it, and the oppositions are aware of it, he hasn't given us much in that front in his hell in Liverpool.

I'd better leave this post now, because the more I write the more livid I am to see him playing in white. I still think that Liverpool and Rafa should be very firm about this and if we don't get enough money, we should make Alonso stay. Nobody put a gun on Alonso's head when he signed his 5 year contract, and we have to defend our interests like Ferguson did, like O'Neil did, like Valencia has with Villa, and like everybody does.

Ill leave the Alonso W*nk part for someone else to comment on but the one thing i didnt get was the Barry part...
Im admittedly one of the many posters around here who seems to think that Barry would offer more mobility than Alonso ever did, would offer more of a dirct attacking threat, would get on the baller higher up the pitch (closer to the strikers as you put it)...etc etc
Does that make Barry the better player ? no it doesnt .. again, just means they have different styles of playing the role...
Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest... Barry is far from a sluggish slow player who takes forever to pick a pass and lacks in creativity..etc etc.. Barry probably has more goals and assists to his name in the last couple of seasons than Alonso does in his entire career.. so theres a point to be made about directly comparing their contributions to the side in such specific terms...
Whats a first pass anyways ? a pass when under pressure ? or just a normal pass ? theres no doubt Alonso has the better passing range of the two players... probably better at deciding about the best pass available too but then again.. do that make him a better player than any other midfielder who's inferior to him in that department? i dont think so...

Bottom line is... Barry offers thing that Alonso never will... 16 goals and 17 assists in the last couple of seasons to be specific.. Alonso on the other hand has attributes to his game that no many other players possess... personally i'd take Alonso ahead of Barry every day of the week but i wouldnt over exaggerate the difference in quality between the two...
about the 10mill thing... well Benitez didnt see things that way last season now did he ?! Try to offload Alonso to add a few mill to that to finance Barry or did we all just forget that ?!     :oh:

Good post Ace.

It always amazes me when someone is so bigheaded as to try to rate a player they have hardly seen, especially after they made such a disasterous appraisal of Torres.

What amazes me is that someone says good post to a poster that considers "W*nk" good words about a Liverpool player compared to a rival player while he insults the poster who defends the Liverpool player, and the next day he pontificates about the right to write opinions without being insulted even if those opinions defend Manchester United players.

A true paradox in a Liverpool forum with always the same posters in the same roles :)

I don't know the other millions of bigheaded football fans who rate Alonso over Barry clearly (I'm not counting the millions of continentals who say Barry who?, just the millions that know both players), but I'll keep considering Alonso a far better player, and besides that I'll keep having that bonus of bias towards all Liverpool players when compared them to other rival players.

Of course it's nice there are other posters who don't, who never got anything wrong and never wrote in newkit something that eventually proved to be utter bóllocks. Yeh, we have a few infalible posters here, they're always right, no matter if we challenge, we don't, we sell Alonso, or we don't.

Anyway, I hope the league starts soon :D

On the topic of valuation I agree Bob and GYBS, no xlub  let their players cheaply and we shouldn't neither. Not that the valuation Ace' does is nuts, it's that nobody in football act against their interests, and it's in our best interest to try and rip off rival clubs who are attacking our structure.
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:13 pm

I will put your "misunderstanding" of how Ace' used the term "Alonso W*nk" down to English not being your first language. He was commenting on YOUR POST not on Alonso.

I will leave it there as you are obviously under considerable stress
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Postby red37 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:20 pm

You know exactly what you are doing don't you saint....not a question that either.

Bigheaded?  I've s.hit em.
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:21 pm

red37 wrote:You know exactly what you are doing don't you saint....not a question that either.

Bigheaded?  I've s.hit em.

And so did he with his previous post
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Postby Sabre » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:24 pm

s@int wrote:I will put your "misunderstanding" of how Ace' used the term "Alonso W*nk" down to English not being your first language. He was commenting on YOUR POST not on Alonso.

I will leave it there as you are obviously under considerable stress

What, you can see me or something? It's 38 degrees here, and I'm just killing the time so that being in the beach is pleasant and not an oven (6 P.M.). No stress S@int!  :D

Yes, I know aswell he was commenting my post, it will be probably due to my poor expression you thought otherwise.

Anyhow, no worries, we move on.  :)
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Postby red37 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:27 pm

Great - then thats enough. 1 apiece if you like. Even if sabre is disadvantaged in some way by his grasp of English - though in my estimation, he does extremely well.

Now i really want to see these little barbs and digs come to an end - i think we all do. Please.

The last word on it.

(The sooner this season kicks off for real the better...)
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