The Alonso Thread - hands in transfer request

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Postby bigmick » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:19 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Nando26 wrote:Also why do some people on here write whole chapters everytime they need to make a point

simplify ddduuuddeeeeessssss  :D

Short posts are like your avatar, you start showing what you want others to see, but you don't do your job completely.

:D

Delighted to see the return of some interesting football analysis.  I think Mick's made lots of compelling points about Alonso's game which, for me, begs the question of what we'll lose if he goes?  That is, having discussed the reasons behind his dip in form, can we next delve deeper into just what he brought to the side when on form as a way of getting at what we won't necessarily have at our disposal if he heads to Madrid?

I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.

Well if Alonso does go, as always when a player leaves people will have their own ideas about how big a hole he has left and whether or not his replacement fills it. You've always got a choice when replacing a player of going for a "like for like" replacement or going for a different type of player, slightly changing the emphasis of your team.

Now in the case of Xabi, I've advocated for a while not trying to replace him like for like (largely if I'm honest because I can't think of anybody) and getting someone in who does some of the things which Xabi isn't so strong at.

So if we look at what we are losing first, then clearly when you add it all up he is quite a loss. Yes there's the raking passes, but I tend to think his ability to dictate the flow of the game, it's tempo and it's direction is his main asset. His Hollywoods do look good, but in actual fact his "assist" stats are less than impressive. It's not as if he's carving defenses apart with incisive through balls very often, so i wouldn't worry too much about that.

What he has brought to the team is a calmness on the ball, he very rarely gives it away, he keeps posession, he switches the play, he is expert at slipping the quick pass just when a Gerrard or a Torres has made themselves a yard. He has that vision and appreciation of other peoples games which is very hard to teach. Closely guarded players such as Gerrard don't get long in space, and if it doesn't sound too exacting the ball actually needs to be on it's way to them before they've made themselves any. No good waiting until he gets inside a little window of opportunity and then releasing it, thedefnders will close down in the time it takes the ball to get there.

What Alonso is brilliant at, is seeing that space is ABOUT TO APPEAR. Like a window of clarity in the pea soupiest of fogs, he pings the ball on it's way so that when Gerrard or Torres has made himself a yard the ball arrives simultaneously. This is vision, not just seeing the pass but seeing the moment, appreciating the flow of the action. That's what we'll miss most IMHO, although a Sneijder will obviously provide gains in other areas.

As many of us don't know much about Sneijder, probably the easiest way of illustration is to imagine if Gerrard moved back. You'd lose that ability to dictate the tempo of games so readily, and you wouldn't keep posession as well as we currently do. We would though get an extra 15-20 goals from central midfield, and the crux of the matter is asking whther or not that's enough to compensate.

That's what I think anyway, it could all be much simpler than that, who knows.
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby babu » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:23 am

206 pages? I'm over this now.

Can someone tell me, is he going to leave or not?
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Postby bigmick » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:29 am

babu wrote:206 pages? I'm over this now.

Can someone tell me, is he going to leave or not?



We're all over it mate I think. He's off though I reckon, although in deference to GYBS nothing is certain yet, it's all "speculation".
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sabre » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:52 am

I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.


His Diagonal balls are great to see and easy to control, but what I'll miss most is his brain's speed, because it's rare, and because the diagonal balls have been often wasted in the boots of Kuyt, Babel, Riise or Pennant. He knows what to do with the ball he's going to receive and he chooses the right pass within the options at a lightning speed.

That speed of his football brain is what makes me smile when a poster I don't want to remember mentions Barry and he says that he's closer to the strikers.... and he's more mobile... and he scores more goals.... and a lot of suspension points like that that still make him a player worth of 10M less because he hasn't that speed nor right criteria to select the first passes (even if he is more than a good player). A crucial moment in football that, and it's the kind of ability that you see and you think ah!, so easy, so logical, that's what you should expect anyway, but you get it rarely.

I don't think we'll mis his range shots much, despite he has the technical ability for it, and the oppositions are aware of it, he hasn't given us much in that front in his hell in Liverpool.

I'd better leave this post now, because the more I write the more livid I am to see him playing in white. I still think that Liverpool and Rafa should be very firm about this and if we don't get enough money, we should make Alonso stay. Nobody put a gun on Alonso's head when he signed his 5 year contract, and we have to defend our interests like Ferguson did, like O'Neil did, like Valencia has with Villa, and like everybody does.
Last edited by Sabre on Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby heimdall » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:40 am

NANNY RED wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:im goin for a bit ill let you know if anyone can call themselves a true red when i come back  :laugh:

Just keep lookin now kids :laugh:

Two liverbirds on the mask, one hillsborough flame.

Corectomundo Cigg. How jarg is that mask :laugh:

Blue Peter badge is in the post :nod

hang on didn't someone earlier comment about the mask or the badge and you said that wasn't it.  ???  That's what threw me, honest  :p
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Postby Reg » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:44 am

babu wrote:206 pages? I'm over this now.

Can someone tell me, is he going to leave or not?

As someone said, its time for Real Madrid to shít or get off the pot, same with Alonso. Rafa got off the pot 2 weeks ago.

Until now its all farting and no shítting which is no fun for anyone.
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Postby tubby » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:47 am

I am getting sick to death with this now. When is it going to be announced?
My new blog for my upcoming holiday.

http://kunstevie.wordpress.com/
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Postby Reg » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:49 am

What ? :laugh:
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Postby heimdall » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:52 am

Xabi is a great footballer for the big games where as said he can control the tempo and deliver devastating passes but where he is not so good is against the park the bus teams, in those situations you need a far more attacking midfielder like for example Sneijder so I think it is very possible that we will loose more of the big top 4-5 games but we will win far more games against the weaker teams which will hopefully lead to the league title.

In an ideal world we could have both Sneijder and Xabi in the squad and use them for the different games.

Personally I think we will cope just fine without Xabi as I think one of the major reasons why he has looked good last season is because the team as a whole played so much better, now whether that is due to Xabi playing better is debatable, in any case I am feeling very confident about the future.
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Postby JoeTerp » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:02 am

we took maximum points from every single game last year where we started macherano, alonso, gerrard, and torres.
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Postby aCe' » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:29 am

Sabre wrote:
I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.


His Diagonal balls are great to see and easy to control, but what I'll miss most is his brain's speed, because it's rare, and because the diagonal balls have been often wasted in the boots of Kuyt, Babel, Riise or Pennant. He knows what to do with the ball he's going to receive and he chooses the right pass within the options at a lightning speed.

That speed of his football brain is what makes me smile when a poster I don't want to remember mentions Barry and he says that he's closer to the strikers.... and he's more mobile... and he scores more goals.... and a lot of suspension points like that that still make him a player worth of 10M less because he hasn't that speed nor right criteria to select the first passes (even if he is more than a good player). A crucial moment in football that, and it's the kind of ability that you see and you think ah!, so easy, so logical, that's what you should expect anyway, but you get it rarely.

I don't think we'll mis his range shots much, despite he has the technical ability for it, and the oppositions are aware of it, he hasn't given us much in that front in his hell in Liverpool.

I'd better leave this post now, because the more I write the more livid I am to see him playing in white. I still think that Liverpool and Rafa should be very firm about this and if we don't get enough money, we should make Alonso stay. Nobody put a gun on Alonso's head when he signed his 5 year contract, and we have to defend our interests like Ferguson did, like O'Neil did, like Valencia has with Villa, and like everybody does.

Ill leave the Alonso W*nk part for someone else to comment on but the one thing i didnt get was the Barry part...
Im admittedly one of the many posters around here who seems to think that Barry would offer more mobility than Alonso ever did, would offer more of a dirct attacking threat, would get on the baller higher up the pitch (closer to the strikers as you put it)...etc etc
Does that make Barry the better player ? no it doesnt .. again, just means they have different styles of playing the role...
Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest... Barry is far from a sluggish slow player who takes forever to pick a pass and lacks in creativity..etc etc.. Barry probably has more goals and assists to his name in the last couple of seasons than Alonso does in his entire career.. so theres a point to be made about directly comparing their contributions to the side in such specific terms...
Whats a first pass anyways ? a pass when under pressure ? or just a normal pass ? theres no doubt Alonso has the better passing range of the two players... probably better at deciding about the best pass available too but then again.. do that make him a better player than any other midfielder who's inferior to him in that department? i dont think so...

Bottom line is... Barry offers thing that Alonso never will... 16 goals and 17 assists in the last couple of seasons to be specific.. Alonso on the other hand has attributes to his game that no many other players possess... personally i'd take Alonso ahead of Barry every day of the week but i wouldnt over exaggerate the difference in quality between the two...
about the 10mill thing... well Benitez didnt see things that way last season now did he ?! Try to offload Alonso to add a few mill to that to finance Barry or did we all just forget that ?!     :oh:
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Postby aCe' » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:39 am

heimdall wrote:In an ideal world we could have both Sneijder and Xabi in the squad and use them for the different games.

In an ideal world we'd have Mascherano and Sneijder playing in different games with Alonso being the one starting regular in the trio...

It would have been much easier to deal with, this whole Alonso saga, if it was Mascherano wanting to leave to Barcelona instead of Alonso wanting to leave for Madrid... To me, Alonso's the more important player of the two and the more influential in our style of play overall... Mascherano is more of a luxury player to have.. Against the top sides hes a top asset... against the smaller sides, hes nowhere near as important in our style of play, our control of the game, our attacking game...etc etc
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Postby Sabre » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:44 am

Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest...


You won't see big continental clubs going for Barry... he has not the same quality of Alonso... even the less Gerrard... they won't go for Carrick either... there's an importang gap between good and top class... That's why he's worth less millions...

I don't feel like explaining basic concepts of football to someone who starts labelling why I appreciate Xabi's game as a W*nk... I think you'd better stick to the kind of football you seem to like and we ignore each other...  we're talking about different games... what you understand for good football doesn't have anything to do with what I understand for good football... let's move on... :nod
Last edited by Sabre on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby aCe' » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:51 am

Sabre wrote:
Personally, i dont think theres as big a gap in quality between the 2 players as you seem to suggest...


You won't see big continental clubs going for Barry... he has not the same quality of Alonso... even the less Gerrard... they won't go for Carrick either... there's an importang gap between good and top class... That's why he's worth less millions...

I don't feel like explaining basic concepts of football to someone who starts labelling why I appreciate Xabi's game as a W*nk... I think you'd better stick to the kind of football you seem to like and we ignore each other...  we're talking about different games... what you understand for good football doesn't have anything to do with what I understand for good football... let's move on... :nod

first off, apologies for the 'W*nk' remarks.. shouldn't have put it in ill agree with that...

but thanks for sparing me the 'basic concepts of good football' lecture anyways...  :;):

we move on indeed...
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Postby aCe' » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:55 am

Liverpool Gaffer Benitez Rules Out Xabi Alonso Move To Real Madrid Next Week
Rafa is confident that his star midfielder will not be heading to the Bernabeu next week…
21 Jul 2009 05:19:49

The tug of war for Xabi Alonso’s services has continued, with Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez insisting that the midfielder will still be in red next week.

Both the English and Spanish press had speculated that Xabi's proposed move to Real Madrid could be concluded soon, but his gaffer at Anfield has ruled out the possibility of the transfer being finalised anytime soon.

“His future is to enjoy his time here in Thailand, with its people, the climate
and the games. And next week, he will continue with us,” AS quoted Benitez telling a local journalist upon the squad’s arrival in south-east Asia.

“One thing you have to understand is how the Spanish press works. But let’s talk about the game against Thailand.”

AS believes that Liverpool's managing director, Christian Purslow, is aware that the club’s €35 million valuation is well out of the market price and that Madrid are only willing to go as high as €27m.

The 'White House' can now only hope that Alonso will be able to convince Benitez to lower the asking price.
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