Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Couple of cracking posts there Mick. I especially liked how you managed to get a quick mention in about rotation as well mate

Seriously I thought it was an excellent explanation of the change we have all seen in Alonso's form.

[GYBS]

Couple of cracking posts there Mick. I especially liked how you managed to get a quick mention in about rotation as well mate

Seriously I thought it was an excellent explanation of the change we have all seen in Alonso's form.

also he managed to get in a mention about Kuyt , only thing missing was Keane and Mourinho   

[bigmick]

Couple of cracking posts there Mick. I especially liked how you managed to get a quick mention in about rotation as well mate

Seriously I thought it was an excellent explanation of the change we have all seen in Alonso's form.

also he managed to get in a mention about Kuyt , only thing missing was Keane and Mourinho   

They're in my next post mate 

[GYBS]

Couple of cracking posts there Mick. I especially liked how you managed to get a quick mention in about rotation as well mate

Seriously I thought it was an excellent explanation of the change we have all seen in Alonso's form.

also he managed to get in a mention about Kuyt , only thing missing was Keane and Mourinho   

They're in my next post mate 

will await it mate


p.s. cant disagree with the majority of your post

[Sabre]

Also why do some people on here write whole chapters everytime they need to make a point

simplify ddduuuddeeeeessssss 

Short posts are like your avatar, you start showing what you want others to see, but you don't do your job completely.

Some good points there Mick and I agree much of it. In the past I thought the "sitting in the pocket" was nothing more than rigourness and sacrificed work, that is, a role that would keep happy Rafa who likes to work out his teams. I didn't see it as a big problem, just a consequence of his role. You were the first and only one who dared to demand what you have described in your post (getting the ball in other areas), and I was a bit skeptical about his ability to do it, because I thought they wouldn't give him the time to operate in the part of the pitch that opposition holding midfielders usually don't give much space at all. I thought his limitations would hinder him if he did that in the english league, and I thought the team would pay it with counter attacks.

I was wrong on that account, we've seen clearly that him receiving the ball in other areas was an important and desireable factor.

However, when he played a more defensive role, I valued him for the role he did, in which he was much better than accomplished, quite simply if we didn't have Mascherano, we wouldn't have another player who could do that role. I was wrong not to demand him more as you did, but I disagreed (as you know fiercely) with the posters that didn't ask Alonso to do another thing, but just gave him stick for a work that wasn't badly done whatsoever, and you could still see actions in which his quality was blatant. I don't think for all the dip of form of Alonso that we could mention him as the culprit of many lost points, not that he did a lot of mistakes in his role.

[bigmick]

Also why do some people on here write whole chapters everytime they need to make a point

simplify ddduuuddeeeeessssss 

Well to simplify, the two reasons why Alonso's form dipped were because we had too many sh!t players and he didn't run around enough. Once we replaced some of the sh!t players (relatively, I'm not being disrespectful to them  ) with good ones, and Xabi ran around a bit more, all was good. Bingo, he started playing well again.

Hope that's simple enough  .

BTW, like the avatar very much.

[NANNY RED]

im goin for a bit ill let you know if anyone can call themselves a true red when i come back 

Just keep lookin now kids

Two liverbirds on the mask, one hillsborough flame.

Corectomundo Cigg. How jarg is that mask

Blue Peter badge is in the post

[sgs]

A substantial factor in his improvement is Benitez and am shocked folks are at pains to avoid mentioning the obvious, as Dossena aptly highlights below..

Yes having better players around provides a vital lift, but even more important is how they are set up to play and how he Alonso is positioned in relation to them..


================
Liverpool fullback Andrea Dossena is keen to see Roma midfielder Alberto Aquilani join him at Anfield.

“Aquilani is destined to improve even more and could do so even more quickly under a great coach like [Liverpool boss Rafael] Benitez,” Dossena told laroma.net.

“A player like him can comfortably play for Liverpool or any other club. He was sidelined due to physical problems last season and could not be at his best, but he has proved to be a great footballer.

“Aquilani can do well in the Premier League, even though it is a more physical league than Serie A.”

He added: “Benitez is very good at setting up the team and moving it around.

“He has many solutions at his disposal and could employ Aquilani in different ways.”
[quote]

[bigmick]

But his performances dramatically dipped under Rafa as well, which wasn't the managers fault necessarily for the reasons listed. Yes we found the solution to Xabi's problems by finding better players to play alongside him, and identifying the fact that he was too easy to box into the pocket, but it isn't a very good example with the greatest of respect of Rafa's tactical nouse.

Finding solutions to problems posed by opposition set ups and coaches is somethign that goes on all the time, Rafa isn't unique either in posing problems or arriving at solutions. I'm shocked that you are shocked that people are at "pains to avoid mentioning the obvious", because it isn't obvious (think that makes sense ).

If you want to look for better examples of Rafa's tactical nouse, I'd get started on defensive set ups if I were you. I think in terms of setting up defensively Rafa has been very innovative for English football, and is as good as they come. I might look for someone who can be taken a bit more seriously in terms of player endorsements than Dossena as well, given the fact that he represents an absolutely awful piece of transfer business by the manager.

Just to clear up though, I'm obviously not saying that Alonso's return to form is nothing to do with the manager. He deserves some credit for finding players who are better than Djimi Traore, but I don't think his contribution in this instance was massively significant. He did presumeably encourage Xabi to step out of the pocket, but two things are worth a mention. Firstly, it was a fairly obvious adjustment to make, and secondly if you were being picky you might ask why it took us a couple of seasons to work it out.

It's a bit like mass rotation from game one, the delayed gazelle and the like. Full marks for eventually ditching it after five seasons but etc etc.

[sgs]

But his performances dramatically dipped under Rafa as well, which wasn't the managers fault necessarily for the reasons listed. Yes we found the solution to Xabi's problems by finding better players to play alongside him, and identifying the fact that he was too easy to box into the pocket, but it isn't a very good example with the greatest of respect of Rafa's tactical nouse.

Finding solutions to problems posed by opposition set ups and coaches is somethign that goes on all the time, Rafa isn't unique either in posing problems or arriving at solutions. I'm shocked that you are shocked that people are at "pains to avoid mentioning the obvious", because it isn't obvious (think that makes sense ).

If you want to look for better examples of Rafa's tactical nouse, I'd get started on defensive set ups if I were you. I think in terms of setting up defensively Rafa has been very innovative for English football, and is as good as they come. I might look for someone who can be taken a bit more seriously in terms of player endorsements than Dossena as well, given the fact that he represents an absolutely awful piece of transfer business by the manager.

Just to clear up though, I'm obviously not saying that Alonso's return to form is nothing to do with the manager. He deserves some credit for finding players who are better than Djimi Traore, but I don't think his contribution in this instance was massively significant. He did presumeably encourage Xabi to step out of the pocket, but two things are worth a mention. Firstly, it was a fairly obvious adjustment to make, and secondly if you were being picky you might ask why it took us a couple of seasons to work it out.

It's a bit like mass rotation from game one, the delayed gazelle and the like. Full marks for eventually ditching it after five seasons but etc etc.

 

Churlish drivel! Fact is, obvious or not, unique or not, the manager is a central issue, from getting better players to setting them up to maximize each others abilities. And continually refining positions to be able to arrive where we are at today.

And irrespective of Dossena's quality so far (and he may yet come good), a comment meant more to obfuscate rather than illuminate, his point is well made, esp wrt Aquilani, who has similar qualities as Alonso.

[bigmick]

"Churlish drivel"

  We'll just have to agree to differ fella I think. I just think you're confusing what is a debate about Xabi Alonso and the reasons his form has fluctuated over five seasons quite so much as it has, with a debate about the manager. Just like you can't really blame Rafa for other coaches finding ways to counteract Xabi, it would be silly to put it all down to the manager when the player finds a way to counteract it.

Anyway I'm not going to get into an argument over it, I merely attempted to post up the reasons I think Xabi's form dipped, and the reasons it picked up again. If you want to turn it into a love in for the manager (who is doing a good job, no argument from me) that's cool, but as it's nothing to do with the subject in hand I'll pass.

Once you've finished, we can get back to talking about the topic again so crack on so do us a favour and get it over with, and then people who are interested in the subject matter can get on with it.

[Lando_Griffin]

Xabi Scored a goal in the european cup final

Wasn't that just a follow up from a peno, anyone could have scored that.

Would you have had the bottle to take the penalty in the first place?

Didn't think so.

[Lando_Griffin]

Alonso's form dipped because he picked up injuries throughout the season which prevented him from regaining fitness. He also had to contend with the fact that the wingers weren't giving him any decent options to pass to.

It's as simple as that.

[bigmick]

Well anyway there's a number of different opinions which people can get their teeth into now, they can take any of them on board or disregard them all and make their own minds up   

[Bad Bob]

Also why do some people on here write whole chapters everytime they need to make a point

simplify ddduuuddeeeeessssss 

Short posts are like your avatar, you start showing what you want others to see, but you don't do your job completely.

Delighted to see the return of some interesting football analysis.  I think Mick's made lots of compelling points about Alonso's game which, for me, begs the question of what we'll lose if he goes?  That is, having discussed the reasons behind his dip in form, can we next delve deeper into just what he brought to the side when on form as a way of getting at what we won't necessarily have at our disposal if he heads to Madrid?

I'll start the ball rolling: we'll likely lose a lot of those lovely diagonal 'out' balls that Alonso specialized in.  The kind that that would sail 40 yards and arrive calf height for a winger or fullback to bring down.  If he goes, I'm going to miss those and I'm going to wonder how much he would have liked drilling those kind of balls out to Johnson on the right.