Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:43 pm

One thing I would say on this "will he fit our system?" and "it (the buying of such and such) will make us change our system" is that in all probability we are going to have to change our system anyway to some extent at least.

The thing which has tripped us up consistently over the last couple of seasons is that quite simply we have drawn too many matches. Now admittedly we went a long way towards addressing that towards the end of last season, and if we continue along the path of selecting sensible teams and actually trying to win from the first minute that may continue, but I don't FWIW think that will bridge the gap in it's entirity. Nor, though I think it will help, do I think the signing of Johnson will be enough. Sure it'll be nice to have someone down the right who can get beyond the play, can beat a man, can shoot from distance, has pace etc but we may need more than that. On a side note it's a bit unusual to have all of that from right fullback as opposed to right midfield, but in these days of more fluid formations they'll probably interchange down the right anyway.

The thing was though with our finishing spurt was that we had our best two players fit for most of it, namely Gerrard and Torres. I'm still unconvinced that a team which has only two players which provide a genuine goal threat can win consistently enough or stay fit for long enough to prevail. Now I know some will say Kuyt provides a genuine goal threat, but whereas ricochets, knee ins, rebounds and the like are lovely when they arrive, it would be unwise to count on them happening every season I think. Kuyt's Liverpool career has largely been dominated by periods where he couldn't hit a cows erse with a banjo interspersed with sprinklings end product, so it's anybodies guess what we're going to get next season in terms of goals.

What I'm coming to in my usual long winded way, is that we are going to need to score more goals from sources other than Gerrard and Torres IMHO. The two areas which are fairly obviously short in that department for me, are from the centre halves and from the central midfielders. The centre halves almost never chip in with a goal, save for the odd 35 yard screamer from Agger. We don't though score from set-pieces aerially, our only threat having been put out to grass in Germany. The other area is central midfield.

Now the simplest way of scoring goals from central midfield is to put Gerrard there. That isn't wasting him as S@int said, because he's a fantastic player there. I'm not necessarily saying I would do it, but it would fairly obviously work in that if Gerrard played for us in central midfield he would in all probability score 15-20 goals in the season. Sure you can't be certain, but I'd take even money he'd get more than 15 in all comps all day long if anybopdy wants to lay it. What you'd then do is get a hole player to do the Gerrard job as of now, and bingo. Even if (which is near to a certainty) the hole player isn't quite a Gerrard, the net gain from central midfield would almost certainly compensate. Equally, you would have more "options and possibilities" should somebody get injured. As it is, if Gerrard or Torres don't play we are severely weakened.

The other option should Masherano or Alonso leave is to replace like with like, which particularly in Xabi's case isn't easy. Even if they do both stay though, I do think we are going to have to modify our approach slightly. Although much of Aces writings get dismissed due to his ardent and at times for some exasperating antiness, he does have a point that against many teams we don't need two sitters. Admittedly Xabi has ventured much further into unchartered waters this season, but if we are to win it I think in the Premiership he'll have to go still further.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:24 pm

heimdall wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
heimdall wrote:Not necessarily, I think we have Benayoun, Lucas and Spearing who can come in and do a job, ok not as good as Xabi but not that much worse either

You do come up with some whoppers, don't you? A bit like saying to your missus, "we can't get to the French Riviera this year but, don't worry, the Norwegian Riviera's just about as good."

Yes, it's funny.

What Alonso does must be good because yesteryear the valuation for some members was low teens, and now when we read Dundalk's post the lower sum is about high thirties.

Perhaps I was wrong on Heimdall and he has a higher regard for our players than I thought. I've never slagged Lucas too much, but I never rated him as highly as Heimdall, being able to provide the same or slightly less than a low teens high thirties player.

Anyhoo like Lando says, it's opinions. We'll see who's right. If Alonso goes and we win the league he'll be right. If Alonso goes and we notice it big time, no problem, he'll be right aswell, it will be Rafa's fault.

To be honest I didn't like Lucas at all last season but I just don't quite get the hysteria over Alonso. he is a very good holding midfielder who is a decent passer of the ball (compared to other top midfielders) but I have also thought that he lacks sufficent attacking flair, his goals per season is really very poor and ok I know that's not his primary function but then it probably isn't Carrick's either.

I so have a feeling that Bennayoun in front of Mascha could do a good job as he is effectivey an attacking midfielder and in tighter games I think Lucas can do a good job if he continues his good form which he showed at the end of the season. Spearing is another option to be bedded in this season, he looks lively and I think he can become very usefull for us.

My main point is that we need a second striker more than we need to replace Alonso, although hopefully we can do both but I want quality this time.

How can one person spout so much sh*t?

You're on the wrong pills, lad. Sort yourself out. :no

by **GOAT** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:57 pm

heimdall wrote:
GOAT wrote:
heimdall wrote:
stmichael wrote:
aCe' wrote:Alonsos a good player and all but lets not over exaggerate his abilities or importance to our side here ...
The way i see it, there isnt much difference in quality between the likes of Alonso, Barry, Carrick, Pirlo, Cambiasso...etc... Alonsos passing stands out, Barry's ball retention and crossing stand out, Carricks attacking play and contributions stand out, Cambiasso's defending and linkup play stand out...etc etc... overall theyr all about the same level... You have better players in their positions (Essien, Fabregas, Scholes, DeRossi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ballack..etc) and you have worse...

Again, if we replace Alonso that doesnt have to mean that we'd only be looking for someone who has passing skills that stand out, while everything else he has in his game is prettyy ordinary... Imo, we'd be better off getting someone who offers that little more in the final third in terms of direct contribution to our attacking play.. There are many names out there who imo would do a very good job in our side replacing Alonso in the current setup, and depending on how we go about our transfers IF Alonso leaves, i think we have a very good chance of actually coming out of this whole thing with a better squad and starting 11 than we do now...
And the whole best midfield in the world thing is a funny one... its like Milan having Flamini, Emerson, Ambrosini, Gattuso, Pirlo and about 15 other defensive midfielders and bragging about it... In attacking terms, all of them combined played in the starting 11 amount to half a 74 year old Filipo Inzaghi... ManUtd dont have the best midfield in the world but i'd say they've been doing pretty okay the last couple of years ! Wonder how theyv managed to go on and win games without having Alonso in their side

Carrick's attacking qualities stand out? You're having a laugh mate.

Alonso is unique. The likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas (fantastic though they are) couldn't come into our system and play in the way Xabi does. Alonso's more prone to sit deep and play longer balls into the channels. Those three are more adventurous and favour the more intricate stuff in the final third. They also don't have the physicailty or comitment in the tackle in my opinion.

The likes of Pirlo & Riquelme could come in and play in the same way but price and age might rule them out. I don't think De Rossi has the technical quality (but if Masch went I'd happily have him step in there). Carrick is a poor, poor second (and Utd wouldn't sell to us in a million years anway)

I don't think Gerrard is disciplined or savvy enough to play there and surely we'd prefer him playing off Torres given the partnership they've established?

Why are you laughing at Carricks attacking abilities, they are far better than Alonso's, which is fairly evident by the number of goals scored.

What, 9 goals in 3 seasons in the league? cor blimey he's a machine

And Alonso has scored??? I would still like to think that Carrick has had more assists and certainly contributes more offensively to the team. Anyway I am sure to be shot down in flames by some statto out there.

I think Alonso has scored like 15 in 5 seasons, so there's not much difference

by **Parkinson** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:10 am

I think BigMick is on the money concerning the goal ratio from the rest of our team. It would be nice to see us as more of a consistent goal threat without relying to heavily on Torres and Gerrard. If Alonso stays which I'm hoping he will, we'll need to see more goal threat from our wide players like Rieira and Kuyt. I am of course presuming this if Mascharano stays aswell and we keep the same system as last year. If Alonso is here next season it would be nice to see Rafa sign somebody like Silva who hopefully will chip in with a few more goals than Rieira. As Johnson has signed I think we may certainly see that Rafa is content with the right hand side. And agaon like Mick pointed out our center backs will need to chip in with a few goals, tweaking the players here and there a little maybe all that is needed i.e Silva for Riera. I'd personally like to see us run with that set-up ideally and take it from there a complete overhaul isn't required.

If Alonso leaves this could well promote the idea of going back to two upfront, dropping Gerrard back into the center and signing another striker to partner Torres. This would be the ideal solution if Alonso leaves otherwise we'd have to find a suitable replacement for the Spainard to play in the position left by Alonso. Two ideas I am not keen on personally as I think it could be just as benefical to play a four man midfield and go scouting for a new striker to partner Torres, which I think would be a hell of a lot easier than to find the ideal replacement of Xabi who can just step into the enigine room and take to the task like a duck to water. By signing a second striker or a partner to Torres we will automatically (although I shouldn't presume) add another goal threat to our team that way and if that striker like Keane found out couldn't work off Torres it would not be as detrimental to the team in my opinion as it would be finding a replacement for Xabi and hoping he can come in and carry on with the job without having many hiccups..

by **Redman in wales** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:02 am

Real Madrid delay deal for Liverpool midfielder Alonso to foil pay-out

Real Madrid want to delay their offer for Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso to prevent Real Sociedad claiming 20 per cent of any transfer fee.

Sociedad's agreement with Liverpool is believed to run out on July 18 and Madrid see it as an obstacle with Anfield's valuation at £35m and their last offer at £25m. The two clubs are prepared to negotiate and Alonso is expected to declare he wants to leave.

The 27-year-old was in Madrid on Monday and had dinner with his agent, Inaki Ibanez.
Alonso said: 'I don't know what is going to happen. It is up to the clubs to negotiate now.'

An £8m deal for defender Alvaro Arbeloa to go to Madrid is already in place.
Liverpool have sold midfielder Paul Anderson, 20, to Nottingham Forest for £250,000.

link

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:12 am

I have always said that if any player does not want to play for us then get shut, Alonso has never forgiven Rafa after trying to offload him last season for Barry......rafa has now got his wish so we should make Madrid pay top dollar for him £35 mill would be a good starting figure.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:12 am

Nah the clause ends today. Alonso is getting married in two weeks, so if anything is going to happen I guess it will be these two weeks, because I don't think Alonso will want to go to the honey moon trip without his future solved.

On Arbeloa's valuation I think 8M is too optimist, as Marca is announcing he'll be off for 3M. 8M with only one year of contract remaining for Arbeloa is too good.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:49 am

For what is worth I have the latest news from Uncle Alberto who has been hunting with Xabi's dad this weekend (this time they've been hunting rabbits).

Unfortunately Mick was right about the interpretation of Alonso's words on having a professional relationship with Rafa. The conversations of the last month between Rafa and Xabi haven't gone very well and right now they have little to say each other. Alonso's tired of his relationship with Rafa and while he loves the club and the town, he can't stay any more. Xabi's dad isn't too happy about him leaving because he's a Barcelona fan and he enjoys his visits to England, but right now he thinks that Alonso will be out 95% sure.

I wish I could tell you another thing.

by **heimdall** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:56 am

Sabre wrote:For what is worth I have the latest news from Uncle Alberto who has been hunting with Xabi's dad this weekend (this time they've been hunting rabbits).

Unfortunately Mick was right about the interpretation of Alonso's words on having a professional relationship with Rafa. The conversations of the last month between Rafa and Xabi haven't gone very well and right now they have little to say each other. Alonso's tired of his relationship with Rafa and while he loves the club and the town, he can't stay any more. Xabi's dad isn't too happy about him leaving because he's a Barcelona fan and he enjoys his visits to England, but right now he thinks that Alonso will be out 95% sure.

I wish I could tell you another thing.

hmm, so Xabi loves Liverpool but not Rafa, kind of like me, apart from RM not wanting to sign me of course.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:59 am

heimdall wrote:
Sabre wrote:For what is worth I have the latest news from Uncle Alberto who has been hunting with Xabi's dad this weekend (this time they've been hunting rabbits).

Unfortunately Mick was right about the interpretation of Alonso's words on having a professional relationship with Rafa. The conversations of the last month between Rafa and Xabi haven't gone very well and right now they have little to say each other. Alonso's tired of his relationship with Rafa and while he loves the club and the town, he can't stay any more. Xabi's dad isn't too happy about him leaving because he's a Barcelona fan and he enjoys his visits to England, but right now he thinks that Alonso will be out 95% sure.

I wish I could tell you another thing.

hmm, so Xabi loves Liverpool but not Rafa, kind of like me, apart from RM not wanting to sign me of course.

Shut up Heimdall im in mourning here,

by **kopite_1232002** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:16 am

So is he deffo off then..

Do you think there could be a u-turn here ..

Its a bloody shame. makes missing out on GazBaz hurt a little now!

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:46 am

Thanks for the info Sabes. well ultimately five years is a long time for any professional relationship, be it whether your a footballer or a plumber. Eventually, people get sick of each other, you've only got to read the forum to see that.

I guess if he's defo off, we've just got to wring as much cash out of those Madrid c...s as we possibly can. I don't hold it against Xabi, he's been a fantastic professional and a top player player for us, and nor do I blame the manager either. Give us 25-28 million for him, and we can all come out of it with some honour intact.

by **stmichael** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:01 am

Parkinson wrote:I think BigMick is on the money concerning the goal ratio from the rest of our team. It would be nice to see us as more of a consistent goal threat without relying to heavily on Torres and Gerrard. If Alonso stays which I'm hoping he will, we'll need to see more goal threat from our wide players like Rieira and Kuyt.

Agree on Riera but Kuyt? The lad scored 14 goals last season which ain't bad for a guy who played a lot of the time out wide. With the exception of Ronaldo I don't know of any other wide player who scored that many goals. Kuyt even scored more League goals than Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez which still shows you how reliant on Ronaldo they were.

by **Parkinson** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:41 am

stmichael wrote:
Parkinson wrote:I think BigMick is on the money concerning the goal ratio from the rest of our team. It would be nice to see us as more of a consistent goal threat without relying to heavily on Torres and Gerrard. If Alonso stays which I'm hoping he will, we'll need to see more goal threat from our wide players like Rieira and Kuyt.

Agree on Riera but Kuyt? The lad scored 14 goals last season which ain't bad for a guy who played a lot of the time out wide. With the exception of Ronaldo I don't know of any other wide player who scored that many goals. Kuyt even scored more League goals than Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez which still shows you how reliant on Ronaldo they were.

Yes sorry, you are right. If Kuyt can carry on that kind of goal form then they'd be no problem. But more is needed from the left flank.

I think we were top goalscorers in the league, or pretty high anyway. But our goals came in batches 3-0's and 4's. The problem is our goals were not spread throughout the season as we had a few goaless draws. So the stats can be a bit misleading, and in those draws we lacked the creativity as much as the goals. I think someone like Silva would add that creativity against stubborn teams hense more goals.

by **JamCar05** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:29 pm

Sabre wrote:On Arbeloa's valuation I think 8M is too optimist, as Marca is announcing he'll be off for 3M. 8M with only one year of contract remaining for Arbeloa is too good.

I know this isn't about Alonso, but if Marca's numbers are near the truth, then I say we should rather keep hold of Arby for one more year and risk losing him for free. Even though he's only got one year left of his contract and isn't a "high profile" player, how can a permanent fixture in Liverpools starting eleven (which has just finished second in what many people label "the best league in the world") and the European Champions squad only be worth so little

. Seriously, this is just ridiculous, and imo we would never be able to find a decent backup for Johnson for that kind of money (and forgive me if I'm not holding my breath regarding Degen). I often feel our players are being somewhat undervalued on the market, when you think about some of the sums other (even midtable) clubs are able to attract for their players.

RE Alonso I would be extremely sad to see him go, and if indeed he does (which unfortunately is looking more and more likely), we really need to take those cnuts at Real to the cleaners big time :angry:

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