The Alonso Thread - hands in transfer request

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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:24 pm

bigmick wrote:Whenever I've been on the whisky and I log on, I always hope that Sabes has been on the Alonso thread, or the rotation one. Nobody defends them better, and though I rarely agree the points are football ones, none of this cocktail barman nonsense which you get from some of the "others". Slightly disappointingly, I totally agree with every word that Ivan says here. I've never bought into the "spanish waiter" or "clown" angle where the managers concerned, he's far from that. Yes he probably misjudged just how good Gerrard was/is when he first came, but England managers have done that despite seeing what he can do from game to game. He no doubt realises now that Gerrard is better than Arbeloa at right back, better than Kuyt at right midfield, his best central midfielder, and in all probability his best option as a strike partner for Torres as well. Being the realist that he is though, he no doubt realises that Gerrard can only play in on eposition at a time. The key is, how do we get the best out of the players we have available to us.

Broken record time here from me, but I think this. Now Alonso is back to his imperious best, he and Mashaerano are pretty much a match for anyone they are likely to come up against. Gerrard can then move to the right (despite the fact that he is our best central midfielder/right back/goalie quite possibly given a bit of practice/centre half almost certainly with about two weeks of practice) simply because it suite the team best. That way, we can play Keane and Torres up front, and we'll win the league. If they need me to explain it to Stevie (as I understand his mates call him), I'm quite prepared to put the dildo sales on hold for a couple of weeks and fly over to put him straight. The mere prospect of that eventuality should be more than enough to make him accept it without reservation and to go and win us the league from right midfield.

DISCLAIMER- this may mean that Kuyt doesn't regularly start, but he can come on as sub and stuff. It's OK.

Mascherano and Alonso don't compliment each other. Both occupy the same area's, both have deficiencies in the attacking sense of the game and both have comfort zones that will do the team no good.

If Alonso's on form we'll get zero creativety from this area of the pitch.

Defaintely not for me.
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:31 pm

ConnO'var wrote:Another fact is that, Rafa does not seem to rate them as a pair either. Last year, in a season of 59 games, he utilized them in a 2 men central midfield, only 8 times.... 5 times at home. In only 3 of those games, have they been up against a proper physically intimidating team. Chelsea, Everton and Blackburn.... and if memory serves, Mascherano was unavailable for all 3 games. The rest of the games were against Aston Villa, Derby, Luton, West Ham & Newcastle.

Conn, in the bit posted above, are you taking into account Rafa's formation switch to 4-2-3-1 in the latter half of last season**?  And are you taking into account the time that Alonso spent out injured during the first half of last season?  Please clarify.


**If indeed you are, would you consider the switch of formation to be the result of Gerrard and Alonso's perceived incompatibility or would you chalk it up to other tactical issues concerning other personnel?
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:42 pm

Thank you. Much appreciated. Next time, bring me your rational thoughts, I rate them much higher than the patronising tone of this last post. I know that the nuances of English is hard and you don't mean it btw....


Actually I meant to be polite. And actually the only thing I WASN'T appreciating was the use of stats for discussing football. And actually I was praising the fact that you normally don't use stats for that .

So let me be be clear, ok? Don't you ever try again to know what's going on in my mind. You have no idea if my tone is patronising and polite, and that's obvious since I'm :O with your answer.

As for rational thoughts, no sorry, I'll just ignore you. It doesn't seem very rational to me to focus in the tone and trying to think what was the tone.

Some people! :no
Last edited by Sabre on Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ConnO'var » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:54 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:Another fact is that, Rafa does not seem to rate them as a pair either. Last year, in a season of 59 games, he utilized them in a 2 men central midfield, only 8 times.... 5 times at home. In only 3 of those games, have they been up against a proper physically intimidating team. Chelsea, Everton and Blackburn.... and if memory serves, Mascherano was unavailable for all 3 games. The rest of the games were against Aston Villa, Derby, Luton, West Ham & Newcastle.

Conn, in the bit posted above, are you taking into account Rafa's formation switch to 4-2-3-1 in the latter half of last season**?  And are you taking into account the time that Alonso spent out injured during the first half of last season?  Please clarify.


**If indeed you are, would you consider the switch of formation to be the result of Gerrard and Alonso's perceived incompatibility or would you chalk it up to other tactical issues concerning other personnel?

I took that into consideration as well Bob..... Alonso started 24 games out 59 last season, and he was used in a midfield 2, 13 times... the remainder in a 3 men midfield.

We have not seen the 2 of them for an extended period of time, as the sole occupants in the middle of the park the season since they've been teamed up in Rafa's 1st year. The season before that it was Momo and Xabi with Gerrard out on the right.

For me, I'd put the reason for this to be a combination of all the points you had highlighted, mate. We had dire need on the right side which we had not adequately covered in one season. We needed to go to a 3 men midfield when we didn't have proper striking options.... the lot. But what strikes me is that the 2 of them played together in Rafa's 1st season when we came in 5th and the next season Rafa got Momo to partner Xabi and that was effectively the end of that partnership on an extended basis. And frankly on the strength of their performance together, I think Rafa is/was right to do what he did. Until we solve the wings properly..... we cannot use them to their best advantage fully. Once again, I would like to re-iterate that I don't think they're a poor partnership..... but more pieces are required to make the best use of their individual strengths.
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Postby ConnO'var » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:03 pm

Sabre wrote:
Thank you. Much appreciated. Next time, bring me your rational thoughts, I rate them much higher than the patronising tone of this last post. I know that the nuances of English is hard and you don't mean it btw....


Actually I meant to be polite. And actually the only thing I WASN'T appreciating was the use of stats for discussing football. And actually I was praising the fact that you normally don't use stats for that .

So let me be be clear, ok? Don't you ever try again to know what's going on in my mind. You have no idea if my tone is patronising and polite, and that's obvious since I'm :O with your answer.

As for rational thoughts, no sorry, I'll just ignore you. It doesn't seem very rational to me to focus in the tone and trying to think what was the tone.

Some people! :no

que?

And why exactly are you going off on one?  ???

No problem..... ignore away.
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:06 pm

Right, thank you.
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Postby dawson99 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Alonso's a great player, great addition to the squad and a vital player if we wanna win that elusive title. End of.
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Postby ConnO'var » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:29 pm

dawson99 wrote:Alonso's a great player, great addition to the squad and a vital player if we wanna win that elusive title. End of.

Agreed.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:02 pm

ConnO'var wrote:a rational and logical poster should not dismiss offhand the value of statistics, used correctly.

I agree Conn, I actually am more willing to consider or accept someones opinion or argument when its backed by  relevant factsrather than by bombast. I honestly can't understand why stats are so frowned upon. Maybe we should just forget about goals scored and just award matches to the team that plays better on the day mate  :D
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Postby ConnO'var » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:26 pm

s@int wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:a rational and logical poster should not dismiss offhand the value of statistics, used correctly.

I agree Conn, I actually am more willing to consider or accept someones opinion or argument when its backed by relevant facts rather than by bombast. I honestly can't understand why stats are so frowned upon. Maybe we should just forget about goals scored and just award matches to the team that plays better on the day mate  :D

:D  :D

Would certainly be a novel way of approaching it mate...
Use a panel of judges like in figure skating!
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Postby NANNY RED » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:16 pm

ConnO'var wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Alonso's a great player, great addition to the squad and a vital player if we wanna win that elusive title. End of.

Agreed.

An me an all  :nod
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:20 pm

Sorry Dawson. I'm puzzled. In summer we were discussing this and at some point I asked not to hurry to sell Alonso.

Your answer was this

why not? if an offer coems, sell him, get someone better suited to the way we play. why wait?



Now he's vital, end of?

But I don't care you making up your mind, we all do.

I'm more interested to know in what pushed you back then to post that.

Was it the useful stats that were used correctly and led to useful conclussions?

Was it that I that some nuance in that sentence was tough to get?

Was it that you thought like many that Mascherano was "clearly better" and so was Barry so ALonso wasn't needed?

I'm very interested in your view about why you thought that back then.
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Postby dawson99 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:25 pm

this season he has played a lot better than last season. In the summer, if we could have got Barry then it would have been wise to let Alonso go. But this season he has been class. Everyone on here knows that this season he has been a revelation compared to last season and I'm happy that we gave him this new chance which he has clearly taken with both hands. hope that makes it clear dude :)
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:33 pm

I agree he's been playing much better. He's at his best. Last season he had a lot of troubles, injuries included, and at some parts of the season (not all the season) he was under his average game.

But so that you understand my overreactions back then, I didn't understand how a bad form, or average form of a quality player had to make us sell him on the rush, as if he wasn't needed any more. My frustration was not that we wanted to sell him, we could do equally well with Barry maybe, but selling him cheaply. Look Real Madrid paying a fortune for Diarra!! so why us hurry to sell a quality player, regardless he hadn't his best of seasons?

I found more reasonable, opinions that did criticise his game, but that didn't want to sell, just were asking the player to give more to the team.

And thank you for clarifying that up, this days I don't read anything about Alonso (even criticisms) that is too harsh. But back then I found selling him quickly a bit harsh, as I think the player is quality enough to deserve some credit when he's reaching his best age for football, 27. And if sold, it has to be a BIG BUSINESS for Liverpool, who have an important debt.

And once clarified that up, and explained why I overreacted back then, I apologize to anyone if I did go OTT, you included of course.

Happy new year, Dawson.  :)
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Postby roberto green » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:49 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Alonso's a great player, great addition to the squad and a vital player if we wanna win that elusive title. End of.

Agreed.

An me an all  :nod

Me too.Alonso has been
my player of the season so far :laugh:
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