Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:43 pm

I agree with Stu, Gerrard has been our best player (even though I don't believe he has been at his absolute best yet this season). Surprise player for me this season has been Sami Hyypia though. I didn't expect him to kick a ball this season and he has been outstanding....... again!

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:59 pm

s@int wrote:I agree with Stu, Gerrard has been our best player (even though I don't believe he has been at his absolute best yet this season). Surprise player for me this season has been Sami Hyypia though. I didn't expect him to kick a ball this season and he has been outstanding....... again!

He always is. He's well past his brilliant best for me but I still believe he's the best centre half we have and we've failed to replace him with sufficient quality.

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:07 pm

what about agger and skittles then ? Both quality centre backs and proven it in the prem and in europe and on international stage

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:21 pm

GYBS wrote:what about agger and skittles then ? Both quality centre backs and proven it in the prem and in europe and on international stage

There should be a circular smiley...

A fella going round in circles designed specifically for this idiot.

:laugh:

What do you think about Kuyt GYBS? :laugh:

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:39 pm

what kuyt got to do with a agger or skittles ? Then again all three are prem and international footballers , something only you could ever wet dream about .

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:43 pm

GYBS wrote:what kuyt got to do with a agger or skittles ? Then again all three are prem and international footballers , something only you could ever wet dream about .

And you wonder why I think you're pathetic. You only ever answer a question with a question, you go round in circles and chat rubbish.

Not only that, you come up with a childish nick name for a centre half. :laugh:

by **SupitsJonF** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:45 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
GYBS wrote:what kuyt got to do with a agger or skittles ? Then again all three are prem and international footballers , something only you could ever wet dream about .

And you wonder why I think you're pathetic. You only ever answer a question with a question, you go round in circles and chat rubbish.

Not only that, you come up with a childish nick name for a centre half.

I agree, Alonso is a good player.

by **RedBen** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:46 pm

SupitsJonF wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
GYBS wrote:what kuyt got to do with a agger or skittles ? Then again all three are prem and international footballers , something only you could ever wet dream about .

And you wonder why I think you're pathetic. You only ever answer a question with a question, you go round in circles and chat rubbish.

Not only that, you come up with a childish nick name for a centre half.

I agree, Alonso is a good player.

EDIT: This smiley is not a smiley like Stu used it, I used it to express that I found your sarcastic joke funny. A man has to be careful these days

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:27 am

There was a very interesting spin-off discussion in the Bolton Match day thread regarding Xabi, Gerrard and Masch and their respective effectiveness as either a midfield pairing or trio.

Over the last few years, this theme, interestingly, has been a recurring one.... considering that we are discussing 3 of the better central midfielders, albeit with different specialities, in the world… let alone the premiership.

Many have waxed lyrical, about the pros and cons of the respective pairings. Having played 29 games this season, I think that the denominator is now large enough to do a simplistic statistical analysis.

Xabi & Stevie
Rafa has used this pairing, a total of 8 times (6 premiership and 2 Champions league). In these games, we've won 75% and drawn the remaining 25% of these games. In only 1 game has this particular pairing been used away from home. We've won against Middlesborough (17th), Standard Liege (DNQ), Everton (6th), PSV Eindhoven (DNQ), Wigan (9th) and Bolton (10th). We’ve also drawn against Stoke (18th) and West Ham (13th).

Xabi, Stevie & Mascherano
9 times, this combo has been deployed (6 Pr & 3 CL)…. Mostly in away games (67%). We’ve won 5 times {Man City (15th), Chelsea (2nd), Bolton (10th), Marseille (DNQ) and Blackburn (19th)}. Lost once to Spurs (16th) and Drawn twice to Atletico Madrid (Q) in the CL.

Xabi & Mascherano
Only once and it was a good win at home against the Mancs (3rd)

Stevie & Mascherano
Only once….. a home win against West Brom (20th).

Lucas and/or Plessis in the mix
By far our worst performing midfield… Used 10 times this season to date yielding only a 50% win rate, 40% draw rate and losing 1 match.

Obviously, the last configuration is the worst central midfield that we utilize but nobody on here would be surprised!

However, I was very surprised to find that we only use Xabi and Stevie in a 4-4-2 at home.
Rafa is much more cautious away from home and prefers to utilize a 4-5-1 which is understandable but can be frustrating especially against the likes of Bolton, Tottenham and Blackburn.

At the end of the day though, in whatever configuration, whenever we have these 3 players, the results have shown that they can play together.
We have won 13 out of 19 games where these guys have featured together.
Drawn 5 and only lost once. To put that into perspective, that is 44 points from a possible 57 and THAT is impressive if you think about it.
I still say that we don’t have the ideal balance in the team to get the most out of our 3 world class (and I mean that in all honesty) central midifielders. In fact, it is a testament to their abilities that like it or not, these guys have done so well for the club without another quality striker and a proper right winger.

PS: For the curious, whenever we start with.
Gerrard….. regardless of partner…… W=15, D=6, L=1. Percentage points earned = 77.3%
Xabi….. regardless of partner…… W=13, D=8, L=1. Percentage points earned = 71.2%
Masch …. Regardless of partner…. W=9, D=5, L=1. Percentage points earned = 71.1 %

Hard to argue isn’t it.

In the spirit of recent posts…. I’ve also included a

DISCLAIMER: This is a very simplistic statistical analysis and of course, there are other factors that need to be considered…. But the sample size is large enough that some conclusions can be drawn.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:42 am

oh wtf... we got 3 world class midfielders... so let the manager play them the way he sees fit... that's the end of it...

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:13 am

maguskwt wrote:oh wtf... we got 3 world class midfielders... so let the manager play them the way he sees fit... that's the end of it...

Indeed..... but always room for improvement, I'm sure you'll agree....

by **Sabre** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:37 am

DISCLAIMER: This is a very simplistic statistical analysis and of course, there are other factors that need to be considered…. But the sample size is large enough that some conclusions can be drawn.

I'm very dissapointed. Because, despite I don't agree you always, I consider you a good footie poster. And good footie poster do not need to use simple stats. </This is a praise>

I think that to discuss this we can use naked eye, not stats.

We analyse players too individually, and football is a collective game. Even if the stats say that in 5 months, playing Gerrard and Alonso together doesn't bring you victories, you may be taking the wrong conclussion if you think they're a wrong pairing. Because that pairing can be a striker or left winger away of being perfect, and from getting results. If people continue to analyse players in an isolated way and not a collective game, they'll keep finding that a player is not good enough one season, and they'd be surprised the player has "become" world class the next season.

So since you have a good naked eye, bring me what your naked eye tells you Conn. FWIW I agree that the three players can play together. And FWIW, I think that Alonso is not irreplaceable because Mascherano and Gerrard can do a good couple.

As said in the Bolton thread, I think that many started to be nervous about the Alonso-Gerrard partnership when they saw that Gerrard was playing in the right, even if he was scoring a lot of goals.

The reason of this is emotional, IMHO. Gerrard is the best player of the team and the decade in Liverpool, he's our Zidane, our Maradona, our Platini, and we emotionally tend to see those brains and leaders commanding the game in the middle, even if the player scores 25 goals a season in the right.

And by seeing Gerrard playing there in the right, some fellow reds jumped in two wrong conclussions

a) Gerrard and Alonso are not compatible. Wrong.
b) Rafa doesn't rate Gerrard as CM. Wrong.

Rafa probably rates Gerrard as the world class player he is. The "problem" with Gerrard, is that, unlike Alonso, he knows to be world class as RM, AM, and CM. It's a sign of Rafa rating him a lot rather than the opposite.

In the Bolton thread this was my point, I wasn't trying to send a dig to Bigmick with the "Alonso's price tag" discussion because we already discussed that, and I already finnished that discussion. The point was made to bury once and for all (unless someone disagrees) the IMHO wrong notions I mentioned above, a) and b).

I do think however, that when Mascherano arrived and played succesfully with Gerrard, some fellow reds thought the incompatibilty of Gerrard and Alonso explained the Mascherano arrival, and this is when they started to think that since Alonso wasn't the right companion, he could be replaced. A healthy admiration for Mascherano, and the dissapointment of the results, started the "stick" to Alonso </this is an interpretation of what I saw, probably wrong>

So I agree your point Conn, those player can play together, but next time bring me your naked eye impressions, I rate them much more than the numbers.

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:27 pm

Whenever I've been on the whisky and I log on, I always hope that Sabes has been on the Alonso thread, or the rotation one. Nobody defends them better, and though I rarely agree the points are football ones, none of this cocktail barman nonsense which you get from some of the "others". Slightly disappointingly, I totally agree with every word that Ivan says here. I've never bought into the "spanish waiter" or "clown" angle where the managers concerned, he's far from that. Yes he probably misjudged just how good Gerrard was/is when he first came, but England managers have done that despite seeing what he can do from game to game. He no doubt realises now that Gerrard is better than Arbeloa at right back, better than Kuyt at right midfield, his best central midfielder, and in all probability his best option as a strike partner for Torres as well. Being the realist that he is though, he no doubt realises that Gerrard can only play in on eposition at a time. The key is, how do we get the best out of the players we have available to us.

Broken record time here from me, but I think this. Now Alonso is back to his imperious best, he and Mashaerano are pretty much a match for anyone they are likely to come up against. Gerrard can then move to the right (despite the fact that he is our best central midfielder/right back/goalie quite possibly given a bit of practice/centre half almost certainly with about two weeks of practice) simply because it suite the team best. That way, we can play Keane and Torres up front, and we'll win the league. If they need me to explain it to Stevie (as I understand his mates call him), I'm quite prepared to put the dildo sales on hold for a couple of weeks and fly over to put him straight. The mere prospect of that eventuality should be more than enough to make him accept it without reservation and to go and win us the league from right midfield.

DISCLAIMER- this may mean that Kuyt doesn't regularly start, but he can come on as sub and stuff. It's OK.

by **Number 9** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:32 pm

bigmick wrote:I'm quite prepared to put the dildo sales on hold for a couple of weeks and fly over to put him straight.

PMSL

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:28 pm

Apologies for taking so long to reply but I've been tied up recently and did not see your post until today.

I'm very dissapointed. Because, despite I don't agree you always, I consider you a good footie poster. And good footie poster do not need to use simple stats. </This is a praise>

I too am very disappointed.... as in addition to being a good footie poster (albeit one that I don't always agree with), I consider you to be a rational and logical poster.</This is a praise>. And a rational and logical poster should not dismiss offhand the value of statistics, used correctly. Else, Arsenal would win the league every year of the last 4 years, as by popular consensus and perception, they play the best football. However, the most simple statistic of them all is that the team with the most points at the end of the season will win the league and that statistic is an unavoidable fact.

This is why I enjoy Owzat's posts even though I don't always agree with his conclusions. Sensibly used, with a large enough sample size, sensible conclusions CAN be drawn.

Another fact is that, Rafa does not seem to rate them as a pair either. Last year, in a season of 59 games, he utilized them in a 2 men central midfield, only 8 times.... 5 times at home. In only 3 of those games, have they been up against a proper physically intimidating team. Chelsea, Everton and Blackburn.... and if memory serves, Mascherano was unavailable for all 3 games. The rest of the games were against Aston Villa, Derby, Luton, West Ham & Newcastle.

It is a recurring theme which has carried over into this season (See previous post)..... They are not often employed against the more roughhouse teams and very rarely away from home. The question that arises is "WHY?".

I've always felt that this is because they need different things from their partner and are not a completely "natural/instintive" pairing. The fact of the matter is, I don't think that Alonso and Gerrard can play together as a fully effective central midfield pairing without proper outlets on the wing. Don't get me wrong, they are still good but we'll not get the best of their individual natural gifts as a pair. The reasons have been discussed ad nauseum in another thread so I won't regurgitate them to avoid the broken record syndrome. I have included a link however, if anyone is remotely interested.

Reasons

So I agree your point Conn, those player can play together, but next time bring me your naked eye impressions, I rate them much more than the numbers.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Next time, bring me your rational thoughts, I rate them much higher than the patronising tone of this last post. I know that the nuances of English is hard and you don't mean it btw....

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