Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bam** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:59 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bam wrote:Almost as funny as you logging on a day after Ciggy returns .....

Weirdo.

Exactly

creepy.

by **Owzat** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:03 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
stmichael wrote:I see he's linked with Arsenal again today.

Best Liverpool player this season imo. Back to his superior best. Ginger beard an all. An as Sabre said Juventus offerd 14 million last season not good enough . Price id say doubled now. Anyway hes stayin here cause he loves us. Just s.*i*e nothing to say gossip from the papers again

I really can't see Arsenal coughing up £12m+ for a player Rafa rates higher than that fee, not that Arsenal cough up £10m+ very often anyway. I think it's mostly paper talk, trying to link a Flamini replacement into the Arsenal side.

I had to laugh at football focus when they said the problem with Arsenal was the loss of Flamini, they then proceded to highlight that they had the worst record of conceding from corners/set pieces (can't remember which) of the big four - like that's something Flamini could stop!

Even if Arsenal were willing to offer £12m+ and we were willing to accept the bid, would Xabi want to move down to fourth to a side looking strugglers in the CL places race? They also have a conservative approach to salaries so that might prove a stumbling block.

I hope Xabi continues to improve, not just in his skills but his thinking. Crossing from the right wing and scoring from just inside the box are things he could do a lot more of. Rather that than his distance passing and shooting which annoys me. He could be one of our most valuable players if he puts his mind to it, he is one of our form players this season and he could still produce more.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:07 pm

Bam wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Bam wrote:Its funny how you pick up the fact the Hyypia was at fault for their goal, yet the whole fecking team fell asleep on their corner. How did he completely loose Santa Cruz if we are playing zonal defending anyway ?

Do you know what Zonal Marking is or how it works? No? Didn't think so.

Good answer that son. :laugh:

I'll educate you. You get given a zone to mark. That zone is an imaginary box if you like. Now, within that zone it is your job to challenge for the ball. If a man however enters your zone when the ball is played that becomes your man to mark. Zonal marking is not the marking of space like some idiots will have you believe. Its the marking of a man which enters your zone. In the example, Roque Santa Cruz entered Sami's zone, he became Sami's man and Sami failed to put any sort of challenge in. The whole team did fall asleep, but it was a free header. End of arguement.

Its used in open play to great effect, if it wasn't then quite simply you'd end up with school boy football.

Now the reason zonal marking is employed, is as a way of organisation. It is clearly one of the best methods of marking at a set peice and in general through out a football match. Using man to man marking it is easier to block players off, its also easier to drag the oppositions best headers of a ball out of position. It also has a purpose to hold a defensive line for offsides etc.

Also, just for the record, I still rate Sami as our best centre half when fit. I don't rate Rafa. The goal was mostly Sami's fault the other day, Rafa is 100% correct on zonal marking and I'd do exactly the same if I was in charge.

If you need help understanding it more clearly I'll explain it in more detail for you. But with your excellent knowledge (see the sarcasm?

) I'm sure you'll claim you understand/disagree! :laugh:

by **Bam** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:09 pm

I'll educate you. You get given a zone to mark

I'll just stop you there, the team werent even ready for their zonal positions, so how you claim to know it was Hyypias fault when the team all were caught flat footed I dont know.

You really are that special arent you.

I don't rate Rafa.

Oh, did you see that Sabre, time to have one of you're hissy fits.

But with your excellent knowledge

Exactly. Dont bother trying to explain something I already know son. Like I said the team werent even ready for the corner their "zonal" positions hadnt been taken up.

by **Sabre** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 pm

I don't rate Rafa.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:47 pm

It's a shame that anything in the Alonso thread inevitably turns into a sh!tfight, but it's always been the case so we're all used to it. On the question of Gerrards performance against Blackburn, I didn't think it was one of his better games TBH. That's not to say he was absolutely awful, as Gerrard's quality will always illuminate the game with little flashes of light, but I didn't think it was his best game no. That I didn't and don't agree with Aldo, Stu and Setanta is a shame, but like Stu I like to form my own opinions and am comfortable being in the minority sometimes. That Gerrard despite being slightly off colour was still one of our better players in an ordinary display from the team overall, is not in dispute though.

One thing which is slightly worrying me about the captain is his anxiety with regards our current situation whcih is glaringly obvious when he plays. Fans get it wrong when they say sometimes that the players don't want it enough, in the case of Carra and Gerrard they very likely want it too much. For Carra in his defensive role it's not so much of a problem, but Gerrard as captain and best player does have a huge impact on other players when he oozes desperation to win out of every pore like he currently is. Not only that, but he has a tendency to try and "force it" a bit, trying shots from 40 yards out or through the eye of a needle passes where it's not always necessary. I love Gerrard as a footballer, but someone needs to pull him and Carra aside at some point and (no pun intended) urge them to calm down.

As for Xabi, the criticism of him and the defence of him were both overboard IMHO. The reason for that is that the pro Xabi's and the anti Xabi's were divided into two camps which were clearly defined through previous spats, and which continued into this one. The reality was that his form had subsided, and no amount of denial convinced me that that wasn't the case, it was. He hadn't though turned into a donkey, his performances for Spain proved as much.

Whether it was Rafa's instructions which caused him to sit in quite so deep and play quite so conservatively I guess we'll never know, but I have to say if I was an opposing player or manager I would be extremely concerned about Alonso getting on the ball too often in the final third. As always in sport you must do what the opposition least would like, and this is precisely what Xabi is doing now on a regular basis.

To see the two sides of his footballing character you needed to look no further than the last match. In the first half he was particularly defensive and had very little influence on the match, in the second he was more expansive and much more influencial. He wasn't on his own in the first half BTW, it was a curious performance from the team in many ways. Such play could well be the reason why people aren't banging on about Mansherano so much this this season so far. If you are going to play the best destructive midfielder in World football, you must trust him to do his job. No point in playing three holding midfielders or there's no point in playing him. If you leave him alone, he will sort it out. Not only will that remind people what a fantastic defensive midfielder he is and he will win the MOM from time to time, but that way Gerrard and Alonso can trot forward and if not quite "unleash hell", at least have a shot now and then.

Anyway, back to Alonso. those who thought the transfer fees being bandied about by Rafa and some people on here were too cheap were correct. They were correct though not because he wasn't worth only that based on what he had shown for two seasons, they were correct based on what he is doing now. In that sense, it was good forsight and they deserve credit for it. It's the same I guess if someone offers 15 million for Keane, do you sell him based on what he's currently doing or do you keep him based on what he's done. Rafa wanted Barry instead and was prepared to take 16 million quid for Xabi, as it turns out he and most of us were wrong, and thank God for that. Had he continued to play like he had over the last two seasons though and lost his place in the team on a permanent basis (and I think he would have as Rafa intended playing 4-4-2 with Gerrard as one of the central mids at the start of the season) then his value now would be around 10, not low teens. That's football and indeed that's life, if's and but's.

by **Sabre** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:53 pm

Fair enough Bigmick. I just was puzzled by the notion that there may have existed an over-defence without an over-attack.

But your post is fair enough. In fact, I feel this is the correct time to talk about Alonso's aspects to improve, as he still can improve. Anyhow, time to enjoy the game.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:51 pm

bigmick wrote:Anyway, back to Alonso. those who thought the transfer fees being bandied about by Rafa and some people on here were too cheap were correct. They were correct though not because he wasn't worth only that based on what he had shown for two seasons, they were correct based on what he is doing now. In that sense, it was good forsight and they deserve credit for it. It's the same I guess if someone offers 15 million for Keane, do you sell him based on what he's currently doing or do you keep him based on what he's done. Rafa wanted Barry instead and was prepared to take 16 million quid for Xabi, as it turns out he and most of us were wrong, and thank God for that. Had he continued to play like he had over the last two seasons though and lost his place in the team on a permanent basis (and I think he would have as Rafa intended playing 4-4-2 with Gerrard as one of the central mids at the start of the season) then his value now would be around 10, not low teens. That's football and indeed that's life, if's and but's.

Again you hit the nail on the head Mick. The other thing is, how long can you afford to wait for a player to get his form back? Indeed, would he have improved but for Rafa showing him that he had run out of patience and his form wasn't good enough and was willing to let him go?

How long do we now give Keane..... two years? I think its very hard to sell a player that you know can play much better and that you know should be worth more, but sometimes you have to accept that maybe they just can't/won't perform at that level and sell. Luckily Alonso seems to have accepted the "kick up the backside" and raised his game, although I personally think he has allowed his standards to drop again in the last few games (even though he scored last week I thought he had a poor game.)

As for Barry, like Keane I think he was way overpriced at £18million, but unlike Keane I think he would suit us down to the ground. Versatile, good passer, creates and scores and is a reasonable tackler. I can still understand why Rafa wanted him, just as I can understand Villa's reluctance to sell him.

BTW Hyypia was definately my M.O.T.M. I thought Gerrard was average by his standards.

by **Reg** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:27 am

Gareth Barry says he will wait until the summer to decide on his future. If Aston Villa qualify for the Champions League, he will stay there, but if they fail to make it, Liverpool are still believed to be the favourites to sign him.

During the dark days, when Gareth Barry was banned from Aston Villa’s training ground, the England midfielder took refuge in Sussex, accepting an offer to train at the Dripping Pan, the less than palatial home of non-League Lewes.

It was a means to an end, a way of keeping fit, as Barry’s proposed move to Liverpool turned rather rancorous when Martin O’Neill disciplined his player for derogatory comments in a Sunday newspaper.

So as the saga rumbled on, with Liverpool reluctant to stump up the required £18 million, the centre of all this attention returned to his roots, just to make sure he did not fall too far behind the pre-season training.

Barry remembered that time this week as we discussed a turbulent chapter in his career that has not finished yet.

“It was a bit weird,” he confirms. “I played at the Dripping Pan a few times for my school so it did bring back a few memories. I went to stay with my friend Michael Standing, who came up to Villa with me from Brighton and who plays for Lewes now. It was a strange couple of weeks.”

A strange season as a whole, in fact, when you consider that Barry is not the type to put his head above the parapet. This quiet lad from Hastings has always preferred to let his football do the talking. The trouble is that football has proved good enough to make him an England regular as well as a serious target for Champions League clubs.

Ah, yes, the Champions League, the Holy Grail for ambitious souls. Barry wants a piece, whether it is with Villa or someone else. After going close in the summer to achieving that aim with Liverpool, the 27-year-old will review his position at the end of this campaign, one that is shaping up very nicely for the second-city club.

Going into today’s home match with Bolton, they trail fourth-placed Arsenal by only a point.

“Towards the end of last season I knew we weren’t too far away from taking that next step,” Barry says. “I was interested to see what the manager did over the summer and who he intended bringing in. He has brought good players who have all really gelled and improve us. I’m not really surprised we’ve done well.

“Come next summer, once the speculation starts again, I hope Aston Villa will be in a strong bargaining position. At the same time, I don’t want to be sitting here holding the club to ransom, saying, 'It’s the top four or I’m off’. It’s about improving and making strides forward.”

That said, Barry has now promised to stay if Villa finish in the top four. “If

I’m playing Champions League football, there’s no need to look elsewhere. That would have to be a definite. I don’t want to be eating my own words.”

And if he does stay, perhaps he would win back the captain’s armband unceremoniously taken away during the strife. As a matter of interest, I wondered what O’Neill had said at the time. “Er, he didn’t say anything,” Barry says with a little hesitation, revealing the hard side of a manager you do not want to cross.

O’Neill, in fact, never formally announced a change of captaincy. He just shared it around during pre-season before handing it more regularly to Martin Laursen.

Barry, however, does not want to make a big deal of the demotion. “It’s not as if I’m not being picked. That would be much harder to take. I enjoyed leading the team out but I certainly don’t keep thinking about it, wishing I was still captain.”

Clearly, there is some penance involved here whereby O’Neill’s authority must be upheld. A little ironic, then, that the pair share the same recipe (roast beef and Yorkshire pudding) in the cookbook launched this week to raise funds for Acorns, the children’s hospice charity so generously supported by Villa.

On the subject of strong managers, another one is also getting the best out of this elegant passer. On the international scene, Fabio Capello was not slow to recognise Barry’s understated influence and the player, in turn, has repaid that faith. As a result, in the tiresome debate over the suitability of Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard, a lot of people now argue that it should, if anything, be Barry plus one other.

How does he see it?

“Yeah, I agree. It should be me and someone else. But seriously, England have world-class midfielders so it’s great being talked about at this sort of level.

“He [Capello] wants us all to express our personalities on the pitch like we do for our clubs. I think I’ve improved my discipline under the England manager – my positional play and concentration. He realises I play a more attacking role for my club but I’m generally the holding player when it comes to my country.”

That improvement, of course, can only benefit Villa, or indeed any other club Barry might join. Arsenal were known to be very interested last summer but Liverpool must remain favourites should Villa finish fifth or worse. “Conversations do come up about Liverpool and it’s usually a case of changing the subject straightaway.”

Barry breaks out in a wide smile, knowing the speculation will not die down until the situation is resolved.

It must be difficult, though, not to sit and wonder what might have been when that stirring Champions League music cranks up in midweek.

“If I had gone there who knows what might have happened,” he reasons. They might not be top of the league now.”

Again, he allows himself a laugh, which didn’t happen much at the Dripping Pan.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:33 pm

When Fabregas got injured the other day i said to my mate lets see how long it is before the Wenger back in for Xabi is in the papers again.

The London Evening Standard

Wenger set to make fresh bid for Alonso

James Olley

24.12.08

Arsene Wenger will revive his interest in Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso after losing captain Cesc Fabregas for four months with knee ligament damage.

Standard Sport understands Arsenal made a £14million deadline day bid for the Spaniard in August but Wenger refused to meet the Anfield club's valuation of £17m.

The Gunners manager is notoriously reluctant to spend big money but the fact an offer was
made at all reveals that, privately at least, there is an admission that the midfield needs to be strengthened.

That feeling will only be exacerbated by
Fabregas's absence, the result of a tackle with Alonso during Sunday's 1-1 draw with Premier League leaders Liverpool.

New chief executive Ivan Gazidis will formally join Arsenal on 1 January and brings with him great experience in player contract negotiations from America.

A source close to the board blamed the club's failure to land Alonso in August on the delay in naming a successor to David Dein, who departed as chief executive last year.

The source said: “Hopefully Gazidis can come in and recognise that Wenger needs someone like Dein in his ear to reassure him that the money is there to spend.”

Alonso is close friends with Spain team-mate Fabregas, who said in the summer that Alonso's possible arrival in London “would be perfect — I'd love it”.

Inaki Ibanez, Alonso's agent, had previously insisted his client would leave Liverpool in the summer after becoming frustrated with a lack of first-team football, having only a year earlier signed a deal to stay until 2012.

Subsequently, Alonso has become a key part of Rafa Benitez's side but Ibanez left the door open to a move by stating ambiguously: “We will see what happens in January.”

Should Liverpool wish to do business, the asking price may be lowered as Alonso would be cup-tied in Europe having played in the Champions League.

Other Arsenal targets include Yaya Toure, the Barcelona midfield player, Juventus youngster Sebastian Giovinco and Stephane Mbia, of Rennes, who claims to have been the subject of a failed 11th-hour bid from Arsenal in August.

They can :censored:

right off . Diarra 30 million to Madrid
:laugh:

Not in the same class as Xabi imo. An 17 million there havin a laugh . Xabis staying here go an look elsewhere Wenger

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:42 pm

They can right off . Diarra 30 million to Madrid
Not in the same class as Xabi imo. An 17 million there havin a laugh .

This is what I meant when I was saying selling cheap is a bad idea. Real Madrid hasn't bought cheap Diarra from Pompey, so why should we sell on the cheap ever?

by **Ciggy** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:36 am

Professor yattle can kiss my @rse.

As if we are going to sell our best player of the season.

by **Madmax** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:07 am

I have always like alonso i still know his world class. I was upset when rafa was going to give him the boot from gareth barnaby barry. Alsonso is class and must stay with us. By far his the most consistent player for us this season. for me alonso going would be similar like stevie g going.

by **Alex G.** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:46 pm

Selling Alonso to Arsenal in january would be reinforce a direct rival for the title and part with our key player of the current season.
Wenger is crazy if he thinks Liverpool will do that stupid thing.

by **Madmax** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:05 am

Alex G. wrote:Selling Alonso to Arsenal in january would be reinforce a direct rival for the title and part with our key player of the current season.
Wenger is crazy if he thinks Liverpool will do that stupid thing.

Exactly. Arsenal are doomed anyways. would like villa to finish forth.

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