Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

To be honest, in the last couple of seasons his demise was overexaggerated by many. He was nowhere near as bad as some people made out.

I'm not sure I agree with that St Mick TBH. It depends how highly you rate his performances when he's somewhere near his best. Certainly in comparison to this season, he looks like a different player.

How much difference? At least 20-30% in my opinion anyway. So you could make out a case for his performances over the last two seasons being poor, compared to his best form.

Besides all that, I'm not so sure that people actually slagged him off as much as you allude to. I mentioned at one point that he was worth "low teens" given his form and got absolutely slaughtered. as it was, by the reports the best bid we recieved foir him was 14 million quid so I wasn't a million miles away as it turned out. Course had we or anybody else known for sure he was going to play as well this season as he has, we wouldn't have even considered selling him in the first place.

Rafa is no fool after all no 

I'm sure Xabi himself would admit that his form dropped off - and because, as fans, we all rated him so highly it was a major disappointment.

He clearly benefits by being surrounded by intelligent footballers (as we all would) but because his game is based around his quick eye for a pass and distribution if players are getting into space for him he will find them.

I'm delighted he stayed and is playing so well, even though I advocated the signing of Barry in the summer.

[account deleted by request]

To be honest, in the last couple of seasons his demise was overexaggerated by many. He was nowhere near as bad as some people made out.

I'm not sure I agree with that St Mick TBH. It depends how highly you rate his performances when he's somewhere near his best. Certainly in comparison to this season, he looks like a different player.

How much difference? At least 20-30% in my opinion anyway. So you could make out a case for his performances over the last two seasons being poor, compared to his best form.

Besides all that, I'm not so sure that people actually slagged him off as much as you allude to. I mentioned at one point that he was worth "low teens" given his form and got absolutely slaughtered. as it was, by the reports the best bid we recieved foir him was 14 million quid so I wasn't a million miles away as it turned out. Course had we or anybody else known for sure he was going to play as well this season as he has, we wouldn't have even considered selling him in the first place.

Rafa is no fool after all no 

Funnily enough Mick, I think he has been slipping back into his "comfort zone" again in the last few games. Maybe its because Riera has dropped in form as well ? When Alonso is playing well, he tends to play the ball forward , when he is struggling he does more of what Stu is saying  :-

Mate, watch him, sometimes he does run ten yards towards the defence, gets it off them then plays it to a centre half or the keeper. Then two minutes later the same again, or sometimes he'll run ten yards towards the defence and get it an play it to a full back when the centre half could have done that.

It invites another midfielder into our half allowing the opposition to put more pressure on our team forcing us into a long ball on occassions.

[bigmick]

I can't help wondering if we are at some point this season going to see Gerrard on the right. Given the form Alonso is in, (which is right back to the best he has shown in a red shirt) and given Masherano's tigerish defensive capabilities, I remain convinced that this is the best use we could make of our resources. It would mean Kuyt and Keane fighting it out for the "other" centre forward slot (with Keane obviously winning it for me), but I just can't help feeling if I was playing against Liverpool this is the line-up I would least like to see.

As for Alonso though, top class and there will be a club or two who are kicking themselves they didn't stump up the 16 mill when they had the chance.

I think the only other way (on paper) to deal with this issue would be 3 at the back once Skrtel and Torres are fit again. Then we could play all of Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Riera, Gerrard, Keane and Torres, and wouldn't have to play any of our weakest players (our fullbacks). People say its too defensive because in reality it plays like 5 at the back instead of 4, or that "its just not something that legit teams do in football."  But for me, its our chance to have our cake (playing 5 in midfield (with 3 of the 5 being masch, alonso, and gerrard) and eat it too (playing Keane and Torres) when we play those lesser teams at home who wont be attacking us much anyway, and the attack that they do manage to put on us is typically through the air, and having 3 in the centre can only help right?  I feel like this system could take a lot of pressure off of Keane, because Gerrard would still be a bit advanced and playing with Torres, and Keane could just be that extra option to help things run more smoothly, or hell, maybe even chip in a goal or two with opposing defenses sh.itting themselves dealing with Torres and Gerrard.







Oh yea, and Alonso is having a great season 

Joe the problem with 3-5-2, and the reason it's gone out of fashion somewhat is that you are effectively conceding an out ball to the opposition with a big margin for error. They tend to run and hit the channels, and as long as you clear the wide midfielder and your striker is willing enough, it's an easy ball to hit.

Teams who play such systems in the hope of being more offensive, often find themselves conceding throw in after throw in deep inside their half as the opposition work the channels relentlessly.

Doesn't mean it can't work, but that's the standard response to it.

[Sabre]

Playing like he has this season, he's worth much more money than he was in the Summer. It seems incredible now when you think back to the times that people felt his form had dropped off, that the point was disputed. All this nonsense about "unseen" work and the like, well you can certainly see the work this season that's for sure.

I agree with Nan and that pound for pound I thnik he's been our best player this season. It seems churlish given that to have a gripe, but I really think he is capable of much better than he's showing as well. I've long talked about him coming "out of the pocket" and I'd like to see him do it more. I broadly agree with Owzats post about five or six before this one, and think if we can get him on the ball in the final third on a regular basis, you'll see him at his very best.

I can't help wondering if we are at some point this season going to see Gerrard on the right. Given the form Alonso is in, (which is right back to the best he has shown in a red shirt) and given Masherano's tigerish defensive capabilities, I remain convinced that this is the best use we could make of our resources. It would mean Kuyt and Keane fighting it out for the "other" centre forward slot (with Keane obviously winning it for me), but I just can't help feeling if I was playing against Liverpool this is the line-up I would least like to see.

As for Alonso though, top class and there will be a club or two who are kicking themselves they didn't stump up the 16 mill when they had the chance.

What's indisputable is that anyone thinking on selling  him in low teens were talking bóllocks and a manager listening to them would have done a *ridiculous* managerial move. That's the crude fact.

You at least, were spot on saying he could respond well to a more attacking role. It's no coincidence that people are praising Alonso now Mascherano is being praised less. Mascherano is more centered in this unseen and defensive work these days, and Alonso has more freedom.

Players do not forget playing football, class is permanent and all that. We'd better defend Mascherano's unseen work this season otherwise a bright brain who knows lots of football might be suggesting Mascherano could be out. Such is the nature of some knees around here.

[Scottbot]

I can't help wondering if we are at some point this season going to see Gerrard on the right. Given the form Alonso is in, (which is right back to the best he has shown in a red shirt) and given Masherano's tigerish defensive capabilities, I remain convinced that this is the best use we could make of our resources. It would mean Kuyt and Keane fighting it out for the "other" centre forward slot (with Keane obviously winning it for me), but I just can't help feeling if I was playing against Liverpool this is the line-up I would least like to see.

As for Alonso though, top class and there will be a club or two who are kicking themselves they didn't stump up the 16 mill when they had the chance.

I think the only other way (on paper) to deal with this issue would be 3 at the back once Skrtel and Torres are fit again. Then we could play all of Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Riera, Gerrard, Keane and Torres, and wouldn't have to play any of our weakest players (our fullbacks). People say its too defensive because in reality it plays like 5 at the back instead of 4, or that "its just not something that legit teams do in football."  But for me, its our chance to have our cake (playing 5 in midfield (with 3 of the 5 being masch, alonso, and gerrard) and eat it too (playing Keane and Torres) when we play those lesser teams at home who wont be attacking us much anyway, and the attack that they do manage to put on us is typically through the air, and having 3 in the centre can only help right?  I feel like this system could take a lot of pressure off of Keane, because Gerrard would still be a bit advanced and playing with Torres, and Keane could just be that extra option to help things run more smoothly, or hell, maybe even chip in a goal or two with opposing defenses sh.itting themselves dealing with Torres and Gerrard.







Oh yea, and Alonso is having a great season 

My thoughts on 3-5-2 are below (posted originally in a good tactics thread from a couple of years back)


I like 3-5-2 as a change-up but i wouldn't be too chuffed if we played it every week. It does have it's advantages and perhaps the most obvious is that it would allow Rafa to play 3 of his 4 centre-mids and it guarantess Gerrard the freedom to get on tha ball in the final third of the pitch. It also ensures you are strong through the middle and if you can keep the ball you shold have a numerical advantage in midfield and having that spare man at the back means marking 2 frontmen can be considerably easier.

However, 3-5-2 can be difficult to coach particularly when just about every British player grows up (and is familiar and comfortable) playing 4-4-2. For me the formation brings with it a number of problems when compared to 4-4-2. I think if you asked them, most centre-halves would tell you they prefer to play in a central 2 (as opposed to a 3) because it is simple. If a high ball comes in the player nearest the ball will go up for it while his partner is likely to drop off slightly incase their is a mistake, the attacking player wins the flick or both defender and attacker miss the ball. In a central 3 knowing when to attack the ball becomes more difficult and it becomes more likely that are cases where 2 players attack the same ball or in some cases, no-one attacks. Hansen did a great job with his analysis with England following the loss in Croatia a little while back. We played with Carra, Terry and Ferdinand (i think) who are all fantastic no nonsense centre-halves but they looked completely uncorfortable with the system and indecisiveness ruled. Hansen quoted " The defenders get too close together and you end up with two or three going for the same ball. What happens is that at some point nobody goes for it and we saw that two minutes into the match when Terry and Jamie Carragher went for same ball"

Another problem with 3-5-2 in today's premiership is that so many teams play with just one man up front using a 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or other variations. With just one striker to mark it leaves you with 2 spare at the back and it can be very difficult to deal with midfield runnners coming on to you, or you afford their midfielders too much time on the ball playing in front of you. In this situation one of your 3 will have to step out and deal with the deep lying 2nd striker or their most attacking midfielder so it's clear there are a lot of complexities. As Mick has already pointed out the most common way to play against 3-5-2 is to play a lot of diagonal balls (classic lower league football this) towards the corners with a player like Owen or Andy Johnson to do the running. This will either keep their wing-backs 'pinned' back into what now becomes a 5-man defense or splits the 3 centre-halves. If you watch England's 5-1 demolition of Germany a few years ago it was built entirely on this very simple tactic. there is also the opportunity to create 2 on 1 situations down the flanks against 3-5-2 if you can get you fullback overlapping as much as possible.

What personnel would we need to play 3-5-2 all the time? Obviously the wing-backs are key, they need to be able to run all day and be able attack and defend with equal aplomb. Riise could do the job in our team as he has always been a classic tweener but the role would not suit Finnan who's strength is clearly his defending and you need your wing-backs to attack with real purpose. a ball playing centre-half is another must for me, someone who can bring the ball out from the back and start attacks, and in Agger we certainly have a player capable of this. In 4-4-2 against the lesser teams when we have a lot of possession you will always see both our fullbacks on the ball and getting into attacking positions. Essentially i think 3-5-2 is a defensive formation that can often serve you well in away games but i would be pis.s.ed if we lined up that way at Anfield each week.

[Sabre]

To be honest, in the last couple of seasons his demise was overexaggerated by many. He was nowhere near as bad as some people made out.

Yes, his demise was too exagerated, and no one can deny it because they were ready to sell on the cheap.

Of course they'll deny it (some people are always right no matter what happens) and focus on how much he has improved to justify their position, but we all know we have read things like "he can't make it in the PL". If that's not exagerated, then I don't know what to say.

About the slight criticism Stu does about his game, well, he's probably right.

[bigmick]

Only talking b0ll0cks Sabes if you could be sure he was about to rediscover his best form. There wasn't a manager in World football (except Rafa of course) who thought Alonso was worth 16 million quid, because if they did they'd have paid it (assuming they could afford it of course). My valuation, and the valuation the rest of the football World were placing on his services was based on the form he had shown over the previous two seasons. Based on that form, for me that was what he was worth.

He had made himself into a full on defensive midfielder, who contributed very little to the team in an attacking sense. As a full on defensive midfielder, there are quite simply players who do it better (we've got one ourselves who we paid 18 million for). Now, that he has rediscovered the ability to positively influence the team from an attacking viewpoint is clear for all to see, and as such his valuation ought to have altered.

Alonso can do things the likes of Masherano can't do, but for two previous seasons he wasn't doing them. If you spend the whole match within five paces of the centre halves, never score a goal and never take a hand in creating one, you will be compared to Masharano today and Makeleli of yesteryear. Xabi doesn't compare well to those players in that role, but at what he can do best, he is a top player. Thankfully, he is doing what he can do best now on a regular basis, and no longer being compared to out and out defensive midfielders.

As for his valuation, our esteemed manager was of the opinion he was worth 16 million and that Gareth Barry was the better option. I had his valuation at "low teens" which meant at the very most I was within 3 million of the managers price, and I was actually within at the most 1 million of the highest actual bidder by all accounts. Total b0ll0cks? Well certainly based on his form now it was and is yes. based on what he was doing then, and had been doing for two seasons though? I don't think so no.

[Sabre]

Your second paragraph is right, he had made himself  defensive midfielder. Well, we should discuss if he was made himself or he was instructed to, that's something that's unclear to me. The fact that Spanish football wasn't in position last summer to meet the 16, doesn't mean they wouldn't be ready for it this summer. Rushing in selling a quality player when he has YEARS of contract on front of him is a big no no. Even the 16 of Rafa weren't too convincing for me.

But it would have been a mistake to sell him on low teen even if we don't have hindsight: so, who would you give that defensive midfielder role, when Mascherano, who's excellent, is in Argentina?

Plessis? next candidate please. Barry? his fame hasn't been built in that role right? Not denying he's a quality player, I'm talking to do that ungrateful work. In the third paragraph you also say something it's true, Alonso can do things Mascherano can't. I should add, and viceversa, like running with the ball comfortably, which is something Alonso can't. But precisely because of that, why sell him on the cheap? you have a player in Alonso that can do the role of defensive midfielder: or didn't he sit down Hamman, a very good player at that?. Even if Mascherano is the better defensive midfielder (different style at that), it's not a good idea to lose a player who can do the role if Mascherano's not there and plus, he can do more things for the team.


*Excuse me and sorry* if I use words like bóllocks or I go a bit OTT, but I certainly disagree vehemently that his "dirty" work was something to dismiss or nonsense, or that he wasn't receiving exagerated stick. FFS, it's as if some posters (not only this biased one) were exagerating the defence of the player when there were not attacks to the player's game!

[SupitsJonF]

Arsenal needs to off 

[JoeTerp]

I can't help wondering if we are at some point this season going to see Gerrard on the right. Given the form Alonso is in, (which is right back to the best he has shown in a red shirt) and given Masherano's tigerish defensive capabilities, I remain convinced that this is the best use we could make of our resources. It would mean Kuyt and Keane fighting it out for the "other" centre forward slot (with Keane obviously winning it for me), but I just can't help feeling if I was playing against Liverpool this is the line-up I would least like to see.

As for Alonso though, top class and there will be a club or two who are kicking themselves they didn't stump up the 16 mill when they had the chance.

I think the only other way (on paper) to deal with this issue would be 3 at the back once Skrtel and Torres are fit again. Then we could play all of Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Riera, Gerrard, Keane and Torres, and wouldn't have to play any of our weakest players (our fullbacks). People say its too defensive because in reality it plays like 5 at the back instead of 4, or that "its just not something that legit teams do in football."  But for me, its our chance to have our cake (playing 5 in midfield (with 3 of the 5 being masch, alonso, and gerrard) and eat it too (playing Keane and Torres) when we play those lesser teams at home who wont be attacking us much anyway, and the attack that they do manage to put on us is typically through the air, and having 3 in the centre can only help right?  I feel like this system could take a lot of pressure off of Keane, because Gerrard would still be a bit advanced and playing with Torres, and Keane could just be that extra option to help things run more smoothly, or hell, maybe even chip in a goal or two with opposing defenses sh.itting themselves dealing with Torres and Gerrard.







Oh yea, and Alonso is having a great season 

My thoughts on 3-5-2 are below (posted originally in a good tactics thread from a couple of years back)


I like 3-5-2 as a change-up but i wouldn't be too chuffed if we played it every week. It does have it's advantages and perhaps the most obvious is that it would allow Rafa to play 3 of his 4 centre-mids and it guarantess Gerrard the freedom to get on tha ball in the final third of the pitch. It also ensures you are strong through the middle and if you can keep the ball you shold have a numerical advantage in midfield and having that spare man at the back means marking 2 frontmen can be considerably easier.

However, 3-5-2 can be difficult to coach particularly when just about every British player grows up (and is familiar and comfortable) playing 4-4-2. For me the formation brings with it a number of problems when compared to 4-4-2. I think if you asked them, most centre-halves would tell you they prefer to play in a central 2 (as opposed to a 3) because it is simple. If a high ball comes in the player nearest the ball will go up for it while his partner is likely to drop off slightly incase their is a mistake, the attacking player wins the flick or both defender and attacker miss the ball. In a central 3 knowing when to attack the ball becomes more difficult and it becomes more likely that are cases where 2 players attack the same ball or in some cases, no-one attacks. Hansen did a great job with his analysis with England following the loss in Croatia a little while back. We played with Carra, Terry and Ferdinand (i think) who are all fantastic no nonsense centre-halves but they looked completely uncorfortable with the system and indecisiveness ruled. Hansen quoted " The defenders get too close together and you end up with two or three going for the same ball. What happens is that at some point nobody goes for it and we saw that two minutes into the match when Terry and Jamie Carragher went for same ball"

Another problem with 3-5-2 in today's premiership is that so many teams play with just one man up front using a 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or other variations. With just one striker to mark it leaves you with 2 spare at the back and it can be very difficult to deal with midfield runnners coming on to you, or you afford their midfielders too much time on the ball playing in front of you. In this situation one of your 3 will have to step out and deal with the deep lying 2nd striker or their most attacking midfielder so it's clear there are a lot of complexities. As Mick has already pointed out the most common way to play against 3-5-2 is to play a lot of diagonal balls (classic lower league football this) towards the corners with a player like Owen or Andy Johnson to do the running. This will either keep their wing-backs 'pinned' back into what now becomes a 5-man defense or splits the 3 centre-halves. If you watch England's 5-1 demolition of Germany a few years ago it was built entirely on this very simple tactic. there is also the opportunity to create 2 on 1 situations down the flanks against 3-5-2 if you can get you fullback overlapping as much as possible.

What personnel would we need to play 3-5-2 all the time? Obviously the wing-backs are key, they need to be able to run all day and be able attack and defend with equal aplomb. Riise could do the job in our team as he has always been a classic tweener but the role would not suit Finnan who's strength is clearly his defending and you need your wing-backs to attack with real purpose. a ball playing centre-half is another must for me, someone who can bring the ball out from the back and start attacks, and in Agger we certainly have a player capable of this. In 4-4-2 against the lesser teams when we have a lot of possession you will always see both our fullbacks on the ball and getting into attacking positions. Essentially i think 3-5-2 is a defensive formation that can often serve you well in away games but i would be pis.s.ed if we lined up that way at Anfield each week.

I don't think I am school enough in the game to really appreciate the differences in ways to attack the different formations but I would think that equally, there are ways to counter, and that there are also natural competitive advantages in attack going against a 4-4-2 when you have both an attacking midfielder AND two strikers.  I did point out that I was merely arguing in "on paper" terms, and I think the part where the theory might fall wrong is in the execution and with the players not being familiar with the system which is vital, and cannot be underrated.  However, I still think that our personel fits nicely to the system with the only "problem" being the crucial left wing(back) position. Aurelio seems like a pretty decent fit in there but his fitness cannot be trusted and Riera's endurance is already a liability.  I think I would be ok starting most games with Riera out there know that at most he could go an hour in which I would throw out Babel if we were tied or losing and Insua or Aurelio if we were already winning.

[Alex G.]

The gooners such a jerks! I´ve read some comments in other forums and they think we are gonna sell them our best form player in January just for 12 millions. Keep on dreaming babes, Xabi going nowhere!

[Reg]

You know why Alonso is special ? He was the first of the Spaniards to come and show that Rafa´s strategy of bringing spanish lads in would work after a hatful of wasted french lads under Houllier.  Morientes was a flop as was Jesomi whatever the waste of time´s name was, but Our Lad arrived and said 'boll*cks to this, I can be as good as anyone' and led the way for the other spanish and latin amercian lads to come and fit in with our style of football.

I hope he stays, I´m not interested in Barry and dont see any player out there who is better.

Good on you lad.

[Alex G.]

You know why Alonso is special ? He was the first of the Spaniards to come and show that Rafa´s strategy of bringing spanish lads in would work after a hatful of wasted french lads under Houllier. 

He and King Luis

[account deleted by request]

Only talking b0ll0cks Sabes if you could be sure he was about to rediscover his best form. There wasn't a manager in World football (except Rafa of course) who thought Alonso was worth 16 million quid, because if they did they'd have paid it (assuming they could afford it of course). My valuation, and the valuation the rest of the football World were placing on his services was based on the form he had shown over the previous two seasons. Based on that form, for me that was what he was worth.

He had made himself into a full on defensive midfielder, who contributed very little to the team in an attacking sense. As a full on defensive midfielder, there are quite simply players who do it better (we've got one ourselves who we paid 18 million for). Now, that he has rediscovered the ability to positively influence the team from an attacking viewpoint is clear for all to see, and as such his valuation ought to have altered.

Alonso can do things the likes of Masherano can't do, but for two previous seasons he wasn't doing them. If you spend the whole match within five paces of the centre halves, never score a goal and never take a hand in creating one, you will be compared to Masharano today and Makeleli of yesteryear. Xabi doesn't compare well to those players in that role, but at what he can do best, he is a top player. Thankfully, he is doing what he can do best now on a regular basis, and no longer being compared to out and out defensive midfielders.

As for his valuation, our esteemed manager was of the opinion he was worth 16 million and that Gareth Barry was the better option. I had his valuation at "low teens" which meant at the very most I was within 3 million of the managers price, and I was actually within at the most 1 million of the highest actual bidder by all accounts. Total b0ll0cks? Well certainly based on his form now it was and is yes. based on what he was doing then, and had been doing for two seasons though? I don't think so no.

Spot on BigMick

[Simari]

Only talking b0ll0cks Sabes if you could be sure he was about to rediscover his best form. There wasn't a manager in World football (except Rafa of course) who thought Alonso was worth 16 million quid, because if they did they'd have paid it (assuming they could afford it of course). My valuation, and the valuation the rest of the football World were placing on his services was based on the form he had shown over the previous two seasons. Based on that form, for me that was what he was worth.

He had made himself into a full on defensive midfielder, who contributed very little to the team in an attacking sense. As a full on defensive midfielder, there are quite simply players who do it better (we've got one ourselves who we paid 18 million for). Now, that he has rediscovered the ability to positively influence the team from an attacking viewpoint is clear for all to see, and as such his valuation ought to have altered.

Alonso can do things the likes of Masherano can't do, but for two previous seasons he wasn't doing them. If you spend the whole match within five paces of the centre halves, never score a goal and never take a hand in creating one, you will be compared to Masharano today and Makeleli of yesteryear. Xabi doesn't compare well to those players in that role, but at what he can do best, he is a top player. Thankfully, he is doing what he can do best now on a regular basis, and no longer being compared to out and out defensive midfielders.

As for his valuation, our esteemed manager was of the opinion he was worth 16 million and that Gareth Barry was the better option. I had his valuation at "low teens" which meant at the very most I was within 3 million of the managers price, and I was actually within at the most 1 million of the highest actual bidder by all accounts. Total b0ll0cks? Well certainly based on his form now it was and is yes. based on what he was doing then, and had been doing for two seasons though? I don't think so no.

Spot on BigMick

I got slaughtered on these forums this summer for suggesting that his defining influence is creativity in our attacks.

Well said, BigMick. Glad there are some that share the view.